If I would have known dinos existed I’m not sure I would have gotten into this hobby.

GarrettT

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It’s like a never ending ferris wheel. What EXACTLY would you do different even with an ID? People keep making comments like this, then they either go ghost or provide a long response that does nothing but dodges the question.
I wouldn't waste $400 - $500 on a UV if you have a type of dino that it is ineffective against. Is that clear enough?

If you want a UV for water clarity - fine. If you want a UV to help protect against fish diseases - fine. If you want a UV to reduce algae or clear a bacterial bloom - Fine. But as a standard recommendation and the go to for ALL dinos - no.

I'm still waiting for an answer..... You said, I made UV a standard recommendation for all dinos. Can you point to where I said that or yet where anyone has said that?? Dodging the question?
 
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aggrofish

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I'm still waiting for an answer..... You said, I made UV a standard recommendation for all dinos. Can you point to where I said that or yet where anyone has said that?? Dodging the question?
No you asked me a direct question and I gave you a direct answer. You seem like the type that just loves to argue for the sake of arguing. I have no interest in discussing things with a person who has already made up his mind and comes across in either a condescending or authoritative tone. If you want to be helpful you can tell me if this site has a block feature...

edit: Nevermind found it
 

Kingfish83

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So you're saying many of them won't go through the sterilizer, not that the dino's are immune to UV. Am I correct? If they are free floating in the water column with an appropriately size sterilizer, why wouldn't they be going through the sterilizer?
Ops sorry. Phone went crazy on me.
 
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Kingfish83

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Only Ostreopsis are the only dinos that go into the water column at night hints the need for a over size UV and a very slow turn over. Plus run a lot of carbon and change every week or two due to the being very toxic. The other Dino's are not as nearly toxic but should change the carbon out every 2 or 3 weeks depending on how bad the bloom is.

All other dinos go back in the sand or rockwork at night. If you turn your light on after 3 hours light have been out. Everything will look like they are gone.

This is why you want to ID the dino type first. Don't waste money on something that won't do anything. Dosing SI will bring the diatoms out and will out complete the other type of dinos. It could take month to put complete. Another reason for needing a microscope to see if the dinos have been wiped out.

Blackouts don't work because they can dormant for months or years in a blackout with out hurting them.
 

GarrettT

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Another reason for needing a microscope to see if the dinos have been wiped out.
So true.
All other dinos go back in the sand or rockwork at night. If you turn your light on after 3 hours light have been out. Everything will look like they are gone.

If there are any dinos on the sand, I always recommend dosing silicate. If dinos are able to be detached from the rock using a turkey baster, I will always recommend running a UV sterilizer. Even if it is just during the daytime. Why? Because many dinos are toxic and I don’t want any of my fish to die. Is it absolutely necessary? I do not know, but being able to manually remove as many of them as you can by hand will certainly be beneficial and speed up the process.
 
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JNalley

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Another reason for needing a microscope to see if the dinos have been wiped out.

Blackouts don't work because they can dormant for months or years in a blackout with out hurting them.
I am fairly positive that you will never ever ever get rid of them. They are always present in your tank and only rear their head when conditions are right. You can stop them from reproducing, and you can force their dormancy, and some will die naturally. But because they can encyst and lay dormant, they are always there, as far as I am aware anyway.

This thread is getting to be too much, there are the hardcore "Need ID" people, and there are the Holistic "ID is not necessary" people. I happen to be in the latter group.

But more than that, I just witnessed someone tell someone else to throw away their biomedia because it's a nitrate factory... That's legitimately its function, to provide a place for bacteria to live that convert Ammonia to Nitrate... So needless to say, I am done with fish stuff tonight while I re-evaluate my time on the internet, lol.
 

GarrettT

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If dinos are able to be detached from the rock using a turkey baster, I will always recommend running a UV sterilizer. Even if it is just during the daytime. Why? Because many dinos are toxic and I don’t want any of my fish to die.
Here’s a photo of an unhealthy tang of mine that was heavy into eating dinos off my rocks. After adding UV and manually removing the dinos on the rock, he started to heal. Honestly, I didn’t think he was going to make it and probably wouldn’t have otherwise. The photos don’t show how bad it really got.

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BAA0497F-F742-4292-BA7E-E61798233BE4.jpeg
 

Kingfish83

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Fyi when I mean wipe them out. I mean back to level that are not noticeable to the eye while having low stable balanced po4 and nirates.
 

Kingfish83

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I am fairly positive that you will never ever ever get rid of them. They are always present in your tank and only rear their head when conditions are right. You can stop them from reproducing, and you can force their dormancy, and some will die naturally. But because they can encyst and lay dormant, they are always there, as far as I am aware anyway.

This thread is getting to be too much, there are the hardcore "Need ID" people, and there are the Holistic "ID is not necessary" people. I happen to be in the latter group.

But more than that, I just witnessed someone tell someone else to throw away their biomedia because it's a nitrate factory... That's legitimately its function, to provide a place for bacteria to live that convert Ammonia to Nitrate... So needless to say, I am done with fish stuff tonight while I re-evaluate my time on the internet, lol.
Fyi wipe out means to level of not noticeable to the eye.
 

Kingfish83

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So true.


If there are any dinos on the sand, I always recommend dosing silicate. If dinos are able to be detached from the rock using a turkey baster, I will always recommend running a UV sterilizer. Even if it is just during the daytime. Why? Because many dinos are toxic and I don’t want any of my fish to die. Is it absolutely necessary? I do not know, but being able to manually remove as many of them as you can by hand will certainly be beneficial and speed up the process.
When it's large cell or small cell dinos they have armer where uv does nothing to them.

You can suck them out through a fliter sick thats smaller than 10 micron. That's the size of the smallest dino.
 

JNalley

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When it's large cell or small cell dinos they have armer where uv does nothing to them.
Can you show me where this is the case? A research paper of some kind? UVC Radiation is nowhere to be found on earth (other than artificially creating it), so for a lifeform to develop some sort of protection against it seems illogical. We are not even immune to it, UVC radiation will burn the heck out of us at low levels, cause cancer at higher levels, and death at severe levels. They are close to X-Ray radiation, which penetrates most organic things, so I would assume that it's the same for UVC. I feel like people *think* that their armor protects them, but have no real evidence to show for it, and it's just a rumor that started from a plausible argument.
You can suck them out through a fliter sick thats smaller than 10 micron. That's the size of the smallest dino.
Do they make filter socks with that tight of a knit? Lowest I've seen was 50 and it had 1-star reviews so I assumed it was because it wasn't actually 50 microns, lol...
 

GarrettT

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When it's large cell or small cell dinos they have armer where uv does nothing to them.
This is wrong. They do not have armor. The issue is getting dinos that don’t go into the water column into the sterilizer. It has nothing to do with armor. That is why we allow for a longer contact time.
You can suck them out through a fliter sick thats smaller than 10 micron. That's the size of the smallest dino.
That would be very very hard to accomplish for the dinos that are on rocks. If you are talking about sand and not on rock, then you are doing much more harm than good.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Yes armor is present on some



But this is minutia

I just scanned nine pages of opinions on dinos here and nobody linked a thread where they cured dinos for others.

We saw one or two examples of an at home cure of someone's tank at home

Multiple references to the big dinos thread, which is a thread of changing dinos challenges into green hair algae challenges per pics and testimony

But did not one time in nine pages see someone post a few outbound fix jobs they worked, in others reefs. this type of peer coaching allows non best practices to continue by accepting recommendations over results we can scan for ourselves.

This is not being mean: someone scan the huge dinos thread


see how many times the tanks turn into a complete algae farm, and the keeper quits posting?

Go click on some of their names. Click find all threads.

Look at how they make new help posts, in different forums, asking for new tank cures. This method of dirtying up a reef by dosing phosphates is helping 9%, killing 75% and the rest are still posting in the thread awaiting some change away from an invasion status. The big dinos thread has a very very low cure and repeatability rate, it's in the pages to scan. When I say killing reefs, am meaning causing such an unnecessary extended invasion for months on end, the keeper takes down the tank.


This dino thread that everyone lauds I find very helpful for studying indirect controls in large systems... somebody needs to study this aspect of invasion suppression. Indirect work is required in large tanks.


But to take one method that is producing hundreds and hundreds of wrecked reefs, and curing a few, and elevate that as a best practice for all reefs is greatly setting back this hobby. Where actual results go, rip cleaning wins by a massive landslide. Follow the threads of rip clean entrants, see if they're quitting, starting over in frustration, losing systems, or getting pattern gha invasions.

The bad thing about rip cleans is they're only helpful for nano reef owners. They're impractical for large reefs to run, we still do large reefs though. A few 200 gallon rip cleans are in there.


Why is it that within phosphate and nitrate test kit comparison threads, readings range massively, but when calculating a supposed phosphate dose for a dinos tank we're all operating that any parameter the keeper posts is unquestionably accurate? We're deluding ourselves

That thread is one giant algae farm because someone dosing plant fertilizer to a system is fifty ppm off true right at the start. They think their phosphate is zero using test kits that range wildly in multi page comparison threads, then they end up causing eutrophication in gross pattern over and over.
 
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GarrettT

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But to take one method that is producing hundreds and hundreds of wrecked reefs, and curing a few, and elevate that as a best practice for all reefs is greatly setting back this hobby.
Brandon, I haven’t seen anything posted that would contribute to a GHA outbreak. This thread has predominantly been focusing on UV and silicate dosing as a means of removal.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Anyone who entertains a monthslong invasion in a nano has a way to be fixed in four hours. We can produce that result here, now, for anyone with a nano. Post a challenge we'll fix it live time. Someone with a wrecked nano ready to act now: post your job we'll fix it live time.

It would be neat to change this thread into an example thread vs a type thread. A thread of before and after pics, using other people's fixed reefs. With no gha tradeoff invasions, just fixed reefs for pages. Someone post a nano challenge let's see the pics. If you're ready, it'll look opposite by 5 pm. The entire life arc of your wrecked nano can change before dinner lol.

two dinos nanos, changed by dinner one day recently
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Agreed on uv and silicate, agreed. Not implicated in gha turnovers and I would always have a massive uv plumbed into a large tank and ready. I support uv tremendously, it's before and after pic examples are excellent
 

GarrettT

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It would be neat to change this thread into an example thread vs a type thread.
I would gladly do that. I recently had a turf algae outbreak and tried to limit po4 knowing that it would contribute to a dino outbreak all over again. I didn’t care because I knew what I needed to do to solve the issue once it delevoped.
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GarrettT

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As you can see the photos were posted AFTER I hooked up the UV sterilizer. Dinos were all over the rocks, but within 24hrs, they were clear again. Unfortunately I don’t have that photo.
 

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GarrettT

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Large and small cell amphidinium don't have armor.

Ostreopsis, Coolia, and Prorocentrum have armor.

It's well known that UV is highly effective against Osteopsis. I think it's safe to say, armor is not the limiting factor when it comes to UV treatment.

The issue is getting the dinos away from the rock and sand and into the UV sterilizer. This is why blackouts are highly recommended when running UV, yet possibly ineffective when either one is singled out.
 

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