I'm dying on this hill - Phosphate is more important than alkalinity

[Potatohead]

My tank has been running for about three years. It is acro dominated and for the most part has done ok. I have always thought my growth was a little slow, and colors were just alright. Maybe like a C+ grade.

My parameters are always quite stable, and I run my alkalinity in the low 7's. I have experimented slowly raising it to the mid 8's for a few months and really noticed hardly any difference, but because it didn't seem any better I slowly dropped it back down. My nitrate is pretty much always 4-5 and my phosphate was always .01-.02 range. I knew this was perhaps slightly low but still in acceptable range.

In my quest to deal with some dinos in the sand, since I had a spare head on my doser, about four weeks ago I started dosing phosphate. I started at dosing about .06 per day. Four weeks later I am dosing .2 per day, which is actually maintaining about .06 actually in the water.

The difference in my corals is profound. Color, polyp extension, growth, all seemingly exploded in about a week. Coralline growth has probably doubled as well. Euphyllia much puffier and also growing faster.

There is probably some bias here, and this probably differs based on each individual tank... But the difference I am seeing based on phosphate levels compared to alkalinity level, and even alkalinity stability is immense.

 

[sde1500]

I wouldn't call it proof that it is greater or worse. Just that you were holding one value in the correct range, but limiting the available phosphates at the low end of acceptable. Increasing alkalinity that is already in a good range would obviously do little if they are still starved of another resource. And then obviously raising what they are starved of provided good results.

 

[ArmyReefer]

I used to keep my phosphates at .01 -.04 till I had to go out of town for a month and my GF was taking care of the tank. I had her doing small water changes while I was gone, but she was not going to test everyday. I asked her to test phosphate with the Hannah checker and walked her through how to do it. They were .15 and I was not coming home for another week. I was freaking out (in my head obviously) and thought my tank was going to crash. When I walked in I looked over to a ton of growth and bright vibrant colors. I slowly dropped them back down to .03 and things went back to normal. About 6 months later, my nitrates and phosphates shot up out of no where. Again did not catch it right away but noticed how good my tank was looking. I now shoot for phosphates anywhere between .07 and .12. Things are looking fantastic. Only thing that worries me is I feel like when you hang on the higher ends of the spectrum, you have a much smaller room for error. Which scares me a little.

 

[Miller535]

I wouldn't call it proof that it is greater or worse. Just that you were holding one value in the correct range, but limiting the available phosphates at the low end of acceptable. Increasing alkalinity that is already in a good range would obviously do little if they are still starved of another resource. And then obviously raising what they are starved of provided good results.

I agree. When a tank is starved for something and you feed it that thing it's starved for, it's going to have a big effect. That does not make it more important then something else. That's really comparing apples and oranges. Drop your alk to like 4 or 5 and see what happens when alk is too low. Corals may not look good when phosphate is low. They'll eventuallu die if alk is too low.

 

[Pdash]

I used to keep my phosphates at .01 -.04 till I had to go out of town for a month and my GF was taking care of the tank. I had her doing small water changes while I was gone, but she was not going to test everyday. I asked her to test phosphate with the Hannah checker and walked her through how to do it. They were .15 and I was not coming home for another week. I was freaking out (in my head obviously) and thought my tank was going to crash. When I walked in I looked over to a ton of growth and bright vibrant colors. I slowly dropped them back down to .03 and things went back to normal. About 6 months later, my nitrates and phosphates shot up out of no where. Again did not catch it right away but noticed how good my tank was looking. I now shoot for phosphates anywhere between .07 and .12. Things are looking fantastic. Only thing that worries me is I feel like when you hang on the higher ends of the spectrum, you have a much smaller room for error. Which scares me a little.

Exactly the opposite in my experience, hanging on the low end leaves one vastly less room for error.

 

[ZoWhat]

My tank has been running for about three years. It is acro dominated

Well there's your problem.... Lololololololololol

Acros are the work of the Devil

 

[Cory]

Id say that phosphorus and nitrogen are important for tissue growth. Alkalinity and calcium are for skeletal growth. If one isnt there, growth doesnt happen. So all of them are important. I agree phosphate is super important though.

 

[Cory]

Btw user glennf doses phosphate and nitrate in his dsr reef method. Check his tank out. He holds the same opinion as you.

 

[Magellan]

All parameters are important, but a sudden increase or decrease in phosphates (within reason) probably won’t kill your corals. A sudden increase or decrease in alk, on the other hand...

 

[2Wheelsonly]

I used to keep my phosphates at .01 -.04 till I had to go out of town for a month and my GF was taking care of the tank. I had her doing small water changes while I was gone, but she was not going to test everyday. I asked her to test phosphate with the Hannah checker and walked her through how to do it. They were .15 and I was not coming home for another week. I was freaking out (in my head obviously) and thought my tank was going to crash. When I walked in I looked over to a ton of growth and bright vibrant colors. I slowly dropped them back down to .03 and things went back to normal. About 6 months later, my nitrates and phosphates shot up out of no where. Again did not catch it right away but noticed how good my tank was looking. I now shoot for phosphates anywhere between .07 and .12. Things are looking fantastic. Only thing that worries me is I feel like when you hang on the higher ends of the spectrum, you have a much smaller room for error. Which scares me a little.

I feel the opposite. My issues have always come from a sudden change due to some random event (mess up) or low readings. When my po4 is in the 0.01-0.02 range I feel I am playing a dangerous game. Never have I see SPS go south faster than ones in a tank with lack of po4. I'd say since I started keeping SPS in 2008, lack of po4 has been the biggest killer by far.

All parameters are important, but a sudden increase or decrease in phosphates (within reason) probably won’t kill your corals. A sudden increase or decrease in alk, on the other hand...

My Alk has been 7.5-8.9 consistently for the last 4 years, one time when I was out of town for work I believe my cat got into my fish room and rubbed it's face all over my aquarium plants co2 regulator knob (lots of cat hair in that area). It was a perfect storm because my Apex also failed and left the co2 regulator ON even though the entire rest of the bar was out (go figure). Like it was like winning the lottery of bad luck...

Anyway, my Alk shot up to 14.8 before I had my wife take it down. I only found out when my Apex for some odd messed up reason SMS txted my randomly 6 hours after it happened to tell me my pH was off. The tank is jam packed with SPS so I figured i'd come home to a mess. When I got home and slowly peeked around the corner expecting the worst everything looked fine. I worked to get it back down and screwed up again as I was stressed from work and this fiasco, I went to get it back down and forgot I turned everything off after my water change. 2 days later my alk was 4.5.

My tank went from 7.8 to 14.5 in 5 hours, from 14.5 back to 12.5 in 2 days the over the next two days down to 4.5 and then back to it's normal 7.8 over the next 4 days or so. I never noticed a single thing other than some slightly cloudy water and poor PE for a few days.

Meanwhile, this month I lost my first SPS in 4 years because of a nitrate spike that depleted all my po4.

 

[Magellan]

I feel the opposite. My issues have always come from a sudden change due to some random event (mess up) or low readings. When my po4 is in the 0.01-0.02 range I feel I am playing a dangerous game. Never have I see SPS go south faster than ones in a tank with lack of po4. I'd say since I started keeping SPS in 2008, lack of po4 has been the biggest killer by far.



My Alk has been 7.5-8.9 consistently for the last 4 years, one time when I was out of town for work I believe my cat got into my fish room and rubbed it's face all over my aquarium plants co2 regulator knob (lots of cat hair in that area). It was a perfect storm because my Apex also failed and left the co2 regulator ON even though the entire rest of the bar was out (go figure). Like it was like winning the lottery of bad luck...

Anyway, my Alk shot up to 14.8 before I had my wife take it down. I only found out when my Apex for some odd messed up reason SMS txted my randomly 6 hours after it happened to tell me my pH was off. The tank is jam packed with SPS so I figured i'd come home to a mess. When I got home and slowly peeked around the corner expecting the worst everything looked fine. I worked to get it back down and screwed up again as I was stressed from work and this fiasco, I went to get it back down and forgot I turned everything off after my water change. 2 days later my alk was 4.5.

My tank went from 7.8 to 14.5 in 5 hours, from 14.5 back to 12.5 in 2 days the over the next two days down to 4.5 and then back to it's normal 7.8 over the next 4 days or so. I never noticed a single thing other than some slightly cloudy water and poor PE for a few days.

Meanwhile, this month I lost my first SPS in 4 years because of a nitrate spike that depleted all my po4.

I think I now believe in miracles

 

[Potatohead]

All parameters are important, but a sudden increase or decrease in phosphates (within reason) probably won’t kill your corals. A sudden increase or decrease in alk, on the other hand...

A sudden decrease in phosphate is not good either. How many times have we heard about someone testing "too high," adding GFO and then having major issues.

I think stability is obviously number one, but I am rapidly forming the opinion that salinity, phosphate and alkalinity are the main talking points. The amount of sheer information online mentioning to keep a tank at .03 or so is huge, and frankly probably straight up wrong unless you are feeding five or six times a day.

Calcium, mag, nitrate also important, but the next level down.

 

[Magellan]

A sudden decrease in phosphate is not good either. How many times have we heard about someone testing "too high," adding GFO and then having major issues.

I think stability is obviously number one, but I am rapidly forming the opinion that salinity, phosphate and alkalinity are the main talking points. The amount of sheer information online mentioning to keep a tank at .03 or so is huge, and frankly probably straight up wrong unless you are feeding five or six times a day.

Calcium, mag, nitrate also important, but the next level down.

I feed 4-5x a day between corals/fish and leave a bag of phosguard in 24/7. Po4 stays around .03 and my mixed reef is happy, growing, and clean. But I bet you’re right, I’m sure I would have issues if I didn’t feed all the time and left the phosguard in.

 

[brandon429]

you have persisted in the fight and have not started over/wasted things you have my respects PH. you have had resolve to keep learning about your challenge for over a year now, nice endurance man. these are the only invasions worth studying, the ones that seem to defy all new approaches. everyone just gives up, its why we can't make headway. eventually in a thread like this headway can be found for your tank then it'll make article gold for others to try.

 

[Potatohead]

you have persisted in the fight and have not started over/wasted things you have my respects PH. you have had resolve to keep learning about your challenge for over a year now, nice endurance man. these are the only invasions worth studying, the ones that seem to defy all new approaches. everyone just gives up, its why we can't make headway. eventually in a thread like this headway can be found for your tank then it'll make article gold for others to try.

Thanks... There has been some frustrating times for sure. Not only with pests but also a mini crash I had about a year ago when my power went out overnight and the tank fell to 71 degrees. I just want to have a really nice, healthy acro tank so bad. For the first time in a while I feel I can see the light.

 

[Drex]

Thank you guys for sharing this has been an awesome post to follow has been some pretty awesome info you guys have shared with us hope to see this carry on will definitely follow

 

[Joseph Disalvo]

Obviously everyone’s system is different for me personally my tank is at its best at 0.2 - 3

 

[LesPoissons]

Very interesting conversation. I have 0 phos in my tank according to my hanna checker but my mixed reef seems to be doing well... its my first tank so maybe I dont know what "doing well" really means- but everything looks good to me. I have to admit though - I have 3 or 4 acros that are def growing- but I have never seen their polyps extend. Like ever. I just assumed it was bc of flow or the tangs etc. Considering dosing phos now to see if it would would change anything?

 

[good.reef]

For those of you that concentrate on the numbers so closely, is it an enjoyable part of the hobby for you? I'm genuinely curious because I hate testing and trying to tune into numbers but only because I find it boring. I leave my tank be and respond if something seems to not be well. I'm definitely not saying my way is better, it works for me and it's just how I enjoy the hobby. I see people post spread sheets and formulas and exact parameters and stress when they are .0X off and it makes me cringe because I wouldn't enjoy the hobby that way. So my question is for those of you that like to test frequently and keep exacting water results, do you do it because you enjoy that part of it or are you afraid the tank will fail if you don't do it that way?

 

[Joseph Disalvo]

For those of you that concentrate on the numbers so closely, is it an enjoyable part of the hobby for you? I'm genuinely curious because I hate testing and trying to tune into numbers but only because I find it boring. I leave my tank be and respond if something seems to not be well. I'm definitely not saying my way is better, it works for me and it's just how I enjoy the hobby. I see people post spread sheets and formulas and exact parameters and stress when they are .0X off and it makes me cringe because I wouldn't enjoy the hobby that way. So my question is for those of you that like to test frequently and keep exacting water results, do you do it because you enjoy that part of it or are you afraid the tank will fail if you don't do it that way?

Honestly I’m a strong believer if your tank looks good let it ride regardless of the numbers. If you chase numbers you can find yourself dosing this and that to meet the “recommended levels” and run into other problems. I test once a week and yes sometimes I find things out of the relative norm. But if things look good I leave it alone and stick to my normal water change maintenance