I'm dying on this hill - Phosphate is more important than alkalinity

[Ike]

I haven't read through many of the comments, but all your observation is probably proof of is the importance of not driving phosphate too low.

It is vital for life and some people are able to create environments in their reef tanks where it's driven too low and it will wreak havoc. By dosing phosphate you need to carefully watch nitrogen and nitrate levels and feeding and balancing proper livestock levels will be vital. IN my experience, really slow algae growth with intense lighting and lighter coral color is a dangerous balancing act if you go too low with any key element/nutrient for even short periods of time.

 

[TDEcoral]

I've been having a hard time getting good colors and growth out my acros for a while now. As a last ditch attempt, I dosed phosphate to a level of .10 in my tank. I know it's anecdotal, but I'm already seeing an improvement in color after only a week or two. Previously phosphate had been at .03 or even less. I'm going to keep dosing to maintain PO4 at around .10 and see how it goes.

 

[Potatohead]

I've been having a hard time getting good colors and growth out my acros for a while now. As a last ditch attempt, I dosed phosphate to a level of .10 in my tank. I know it's anecdotal, but I'm already seeing an improvement in color after only a week or two. Previously phosphate had been at .03 or even less. I'm going to keep dosing to maintain PO4 at around .10 and see how it goes.

The difference in my tank is remarkable. Phosphate dosing has been my eureka moment.

I lowered my dose a bit a while back and recently over the last 4-5 weeks I have been getting a bit of red algae/dinos build up in some spots, mainly on some rocks and my overflow. Phos was about .07 during this time, corals still looked great so I was holding it there. After a few weeks of tinkering with things trying to figure out the algae I upped my phosphate dose about 30%, it's now holding about .1 and after like three days about 3/4 of the red stuff is gone. I will probably increase to .12 -.14 range and keep it there for good.

 

[TDEcoral]

The difference in my tank is remarkable. Phosphate dosing has been my eureka moment.

I lowered my dose a bit a while back and recently over the last 4-5 weeks I have been getting a bit of red algae/dinos build up in some spots, mainly on some rocks and my overflow. Phos was about .07 during this time, corals still looked great so I was holding it there. After a few weeks of tinkering with things trying to figure out the algae I upped my phosphate dose about 30%, it's now holding about .1 and after like three days about 3/4 of the red stuff is gone. I will probably increase to .12 -.14 range and keep it there for good.

It's so counterintuitive to what's been parroted for years about phosphate. I think part of my problem is that I only have three fish in the tank, so there just isn't enough input in the way of phosphate or nitrate. Without dosing they approach zero and my acros start to suffer. I bet the people that have great success while running low PO4 and/or NO3 have a lot higher input in the way of fish food and excrement. I can't even run my skimmer or it'll strip the water and my tank is packed with acros.

 

[Potatohead]

It's so counterintuitive to what's been parroted for years about phosphate. I think part of my problem is that I only have three fish in the tank, so there just isn't enough input in the way of phosphate or nitrate. Without dosing they approach zero and my acros start to suffer. I bet the people that have great success while running low PO4 and/or NO3 have a lot higher input in the way of fish food and excrement. I can't even run my skimmer or it'll strip the water and my tank is packed with acros.

I think that is absolutely the case. I only have four fish in my tank. There are a lot of successful low nutrient acro tanks out there but they are usually packed with fish.

The part that blows my mind is that the tank is a lot cleaner visually with higher phosphate which is the total opposite of what I have always been told or read. Even some bubble algae I have doesn't grow as well (maybe because my chaeto grows better), and the aforementioned dinos disappear completely. I can also feed more without worrying about algae.

 

[Potatohead]

Took another pic of my Red Diablo. Sorry for dirty glass ;Happy

 

[Perry]

This deserves a bump.
While I have had successful reefs up until 3 years ago, I have struggled to keep SPS, and here is exactly why.... Dead rock. Now, some do ok with this rock, but here is why I struggled. All my previous systems were setup with real live, alive, and very mature rock. So keeping balance was easy, and keeping nutrients down was the goal. So, as the trend changes, so does my new reefing philosophy. I am still chasing real rock for the sump, started a fuge, and trying for biological balance . That said, my current rock literally sucks in PO4, so I am now dosing. Wait, what, this totally contradicts my indoctrinated belief system, but have determined that 0.00 is not the goal, and I am fully aware of why I have killed so many frags. I now dose seachem flourish, and have managed to stabilize at 0.08. In time I will be able to contribute more observations, but for now, I have no adverse effects and my few non sps corals in the tank look happier, more to come in weeks coming, should have a round of frags to experiment with soon.

 

[Potatohead]

Took a few more quick and dirty progress pics. They look washed out but it's just to show growth progress. A lot of these corals pretty much didn't have any branches other than the initial frag when this thread was started, they just were encrusting forever. Now they're in full takeoff mode. Reefing is fun again ;Happy I do have two that are just existing currently but I feel like if I give them some more time they will come around.

I have noticed very slightly reduced polyp extension over the last week or so, did some routine testing and my nitrate has dropped from 10 to 5. I notice my skimmer is skimming a little more wet, turned it back down a bit. Admittedly it has been about a month since I last tested nitrate.

 

[12gallonsofhex]

If phosphate is the limiting nutrient, at 0.01 to 0.02 ppm phosphate it is, alkalinity higher than 7° dKH is of no use. In contrary most probable it will worsen things and may induce STN of SPS from the base.

In my opinion 0.05 to 0.1 ppm of phosphate is the safest range. You have at least 0.04 ppm range before it is really getting bad.

However, dropping phosphate concentrations may always be a problem. In contrast rising phosphate concentrations hardly ever will cause problems and only with extremely high concentrations. The problems will occur when you lower phosphate concentrations again. SPS adapt to high phosphate concentration rapidly but are really bad in adapting to lower phosphate concentration.

Skeletons of SPS show quite high phosphate concentrations (even at low phosphate concentrations in the water). Phosphate is located mainly in the organic matrix. Obviously phosphate plays a crucial role in skeletal growth. Especially the fast growing SPS need a lot of phosphate and now it also gets clear why raising alkalinity at low phosphate concentrations has such a detrimental effect.

At higher phosphate concentrations also higher alkalinities may have a positive effect for coral growth, but only then.

In my reef I have fo ui nd that running ultra low phosphate makes corals unhappy and things like cyano and dinos take over. When I started 16 months ago it seemed like everyone said to run under .03ppm po4 if you want to keep sps. I can say with confidence that MY reef hates those numbers. I am feeding corals more and keeping po4 between .05 and .08 and my sticks are doing much better. In fact, I have had to double the amount of All-4-Reef I dose since upping my phosphate level. Much of what is working for me is info gleaned from Lou Ekus and yourself talking with reefers on social media. Thank you for chiming in and sharing your experience with the community.

 

[Potatohead]

Thought I would bump this back up with some more (crappy) progress pics. From the pics a couple posts up, it has been about six weeks.

My nitrate has fallen in the last couple months from around 10, to around the .5 - 1 range now. Phosphate still hovering about .1 - .12 range with continued dosing. I guess with phosphate now available, denitrifying bacteria is growing much better than before. I thought my nitrate kit was bad (couple months expired) but new reagents show the same result. Everything looks good though and even a couple of the corals that weren't doing much are starting to come around, so I am not worried about it. My growth has also gotten better over the last few weeks, my alk dosing now is the highest it has ever been. I am able to feed more now which is nice and I'm sure my fish like it ;Joyful

 

[Joedubyk]

I 100% agree with you on phosphate. Too low of phosphate probably has crashed more tanks from a parameters stand point than anything else

 

[Joedubyk]

With respect, your nitrates need to be much higher. Your acros look pale as hell.

Thought I would bump this back up with some more (crappy) progress pics.

My nitrate has fallen in the last couple months from around 10, to around the .5 - 1 range now. Phosphate still hovering about .1 - .12 range with continued dosing. I guess with phosphate now available, denitrifying bacteria is growing much better than before. I thought my nitrate kit was bad (couple months expired) but new reagents show the same result. Everything looks good though and even a couple of the corals that weren't doing much are starting to come around, so I am not worried about it. My growth has also gotten better over the last few weeks, my alk dosing now is the highest it has ever been. I am able to feed more now which is nice and I'm sure my fish like it ;Joyful

 

[Joedubyk]

In my reef I have fo ui nd that running ultra low phosphate makes corals unhappy and things like cyano and dinos take over. When I started 16 months ago it seemed like everyone said to run under .03ppm po4 if you want to keep sps. I can say with confidence that MY reef hates those numbers. I am feeding corals more and keeping po4 between .05 and .08 and my sticks are doing much better. In fact, I have had to double the amount of All-4-Reef I dose since upping my phosphate level. Much of what is working for me is info gleaned from Lou Ekus and yourself talking with reefers on social media. Thank you for chiming in and sharing your experience with the community.

You are correct. Sucks that people keep parroting old, stale info

 

[Potatohead]

With respect, your nitrates need to be much higher. Your acros look pale as hell.

Seems a bit extreme, it's mostly the cell phone pictures I think. There are some pics earlier in the thread when my nitrates were about ten and there may be some difference but it is not drastic. Some still seem to be coming into form as well since I only really turned the corner on this about six months ago. Would I like nitrates more in the 5-8 range, sure I would.

Now I know why many people are hesitant to post pics ;Bored

 

[ScottB]

Seems a bit extreme, it's mostly the cell phone pictures I think. There are some pics earlier in the thread when my nitrates were about ten and there may be some difference but it is not drastic. Some still seem to be coming into form as well since I only really turned the corner on this about six months ago. Would I like nitrates more in the 5-8 range, sure I would.

Now I know why many people are hesitant to post pics ;Bored

Or you could just shoot your pics under heavy blues, through an orange filter like many others do.

I think your sticks are looking good and encrusting well. But I would keep a little more nitrate in there -- unless you have some GHA eating it first.

 

[Potatohead]

Or you could just shoot your pics under heavy blues, through an orange filter like many others do.

I think your sticks are looking good and encrusting well. But I would keep a little more nitrate in there -- unless you have some GHA eating it first.

No GHA, but my chaeto grows well, always has. I don't even have any blue leds on the tank, it's a lone eight bulb Sunpower.

It was not my intent to let the nitrate drop, it just has. I will probably cut back my fuge light a couple hours and feed a bit more. I don't want to do anything drastic obviously.

 

[Potatohead]

Or you could just shoot your pics under heavy blues, through an orange filter like many others do.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I looked top downs today with the flow off and only the dusk/dawns on and the corals look great. I tried to take pics but like you said I need a filter, they dont look close to what the eye sees. Dude has me all self conscious ;Facepalm I did also lower my fuge lighting from nine hours to seven and a half.

 

[Perry]

First off,
You are keeping sps alive, well done!!!
Color comes in time, and quite frankly, under your lighting, they will improve over time, especially if you have balanced mineral and trace minerals. I bet, if you lowered phosphate and kept nitate where it is, with increasing fish load, and feedings, your colors would explode! Blued out tanks do seem to fair better in higher nutrient scenario, also don't seem to struggle with nuisance algae. If their tanks ran straight t5, I bet algae would take over, just saying. I believe it's important to understand your tank, your nutrients, and your bioload, running UNLS is not old and outdated, or stale. Here is my previous tank running all t5, and ULN. My colors were anything but pale, heavy import, heavy export, and running full Aquaforest program.

 

[anth]

This deserves a bump.
While I have had successful reefs up until 3 years ago, I have struggled to keep SPS, and here is exactly why.... Dead rock. Now, some do ok with this rock, but here is why I struggled. All my previous systems were setup with real live, alive, and very mature rock. So keeping balance was easy, and keeping nutrients down was the goal. So, as the trend changes, so does my new reefing philosophy. I am still chasing real rock for the sump, started a fuge, and trying for biological balance . That said, my current rock literally sucks in PO4, so I am now dosing. Wait, what, this totally contradicts my indoctrinated belief system, but have determined that 0.00 is not the goal, and I am fully aware of why I have killed so many frags. I now dose seachem flourish, and have managed to stabilize at 0.08. In time I will be able to contribute more observations, but for now, I have no adverse effects and my few non sps corals in the tank look happier, more to come in weeks coming, should have a round of frags to experiment with soon.

I was dosing flourish and didnt realise it had a lot of extra unwanted crap in it such as copper, chlorine, iron and other unwanted elements. The copper showed on my icp test as near critical and other elements were raised to a cautionary level. During this time my sps and lps all looked a little drab. I switched to using potassium nitrate powder and that way im only adding potassium and nitrate.
just a heads up incase things start going down hill you know what to check on.

 

[Perry]

I was dosing flourish and didnt realise it had a lot of extra unwanted crap in it such as copper, chlorine, iron and other unwanted elements. The copper showed on my icp test as near critical and other elements were raised to a cautionary level. During this time my sps and lps all looked a little drab. I switched to using potassium nitrate powder and that way im only adding potassium and nitrate.
just a heads up incase things start going down hill you know what to check on.

Hey, great info, and thanks for the heads up Luckily, I am no longer dosing flourish, and my dry rock tank has finally stopped sponging po4. Actually, I am experiencing .12 and 25 no3. Not where I want it long-term, but it appears this round of frags are living, it simply shows that there is a major disconnect with ocean rock, vs dry rock, and the maturation process which allows for sps success. I don't think its as simple as keeping nutrients high or low, too many variables to consider. All my previous tanjs were setup with realdeal ocean rock, this us my first time with dry rock, and if I even thought to run low po4 on my current setup, my corals would be toast