I'm dying on this hill - Phosphate is more important than alkalinity

[Belgian Anthias]

This would render tanks with trickle filters and with ozonisation good tanks. Both support high remineralization and nitrate concentrations.

Why ozonization? In a marine aquarium?

Why would a tank with a trickle filter NOT be a good tank? Please explain.

I prefer a high remineralization rate which keeps DOC as low as possible.

A very low DOC content is most important for a healthy coral holobiont.

The use of biofilters makes it possible to manage the filtration capacity in combination with nutrient export rates, as desired by the user, at all times. In combination with managing the nutrient input, one has full control over the nutrient cycle.
AAM, active aquarium management.

A good biofilter does NOT support nitrate concentrations!!
Nitrification is reducing ammonia leftover after remineralization, ammonium not used up by faster growing organisms. Toxic ammonia is transformed into safely stored usable nitrogen. if produced nitrate is not used up it will not harm the livestock as would ammonia if not nitrified. 1ppm ammonia is transformed in +- 4 ppm nitrate, the difference in weight is represented by the amount oxygen present, 1ppm NH3-N = 1ppm NO3-N.
If in a closed system the nitrogen concentration increases one may be happy it is in the form of nitrate!

If the nitrate concentration increases this is because for some reason the nutrient reserve can not be used up.
Why usable nitrate slowly may build up in a well-lit aquarium?
Exporting or and reducing nitrate does not solve an existing nutrient problem!

A good biofilter prevents nutrients from building up in the system water, by installing the growth needed, supporting the carrying capacity. AAM!

Nitrate is easily exported using a biofilter, but why export nitrate and leave all other inorganic nutrients behind? Nitrate availability also represents the availability of other essential nutrients not used up yet. Why exporting only nitrate?
Because the nutrient balance is influenced by the use of a skimmer, DOC removed by a skimmer does not contain much nitrogen, only MAX +- 30% of DOC may be removed. (ref: MB CMF de Haes 2017-2019) Produced Inorganic nitrogen is released directly into the water column and is NOT removed by a skimmer.
Exporting nitrate as N2 may help to restore the nutrient unbalance created by the use of a skimmer.
The balance also can be restored by active algae management. AAM

Why do you consider a biofilter to be responsible for the presence of a nitrogen reserve? A remineralization filter restores the balance between nitrogen availability and other essential inorganic nutrients making it possible all essential inorganic nutrients to be removed by growth.
A skimmer plays an important role in the presence of a nitrogen concentration, it is responsible for creating a nutrient imbalance.

What is the danger included in the nitrate concentration?

 

[Hans-Werner]

Why ozonization? In a marine aquarium?

In don't understand the question. Ozonisation enhances oxidation of organic substances and in this way remineralization. It destroys yellow substances which are an important part of persistent DOC. This means, if you want a tank with low DOC, use ozone, doesn't it?

Why would a tank with a trickle filter NOT be a good tank? Please explain.

I think it has its reasons why the trickle filters, which were of much more widespread use in the 80s, got out of style. In my opinion they are not helpful. I don't need or want nitrate at all. Maybe I am wrong.

I don't understand your approach. What are the advantages of a tank with a high mineralization and a high ORP (redox potential). Is this statement or approach generally accepted? How does such a tank look like?

This would be a very simple approach, why do I read/hear about it only now? Why doesn't this approach prevail?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

In don't understand the question. Ozonisation enhances oxidation of organic substances and in this way remineralization. It destroys yellow substances which are an important part of persistent DOC. This means, if you want a tank with low DOC, use ozone, doesn't it?

I think it has its reasons why the trickle filters, which were of much more widespread use in the 80s, got out of style. In my opinion they are not helpful. I don't need or want nitrate at all. Maybe I am wrong.

I don't understand your approach. What are the advantages of a tank with a high mineralization and a high ORP (redox potential). Is this statement or approach generally accepted? How does such a tank look like?

This would be a very simple approach, why do I read/hear about it only now? Why doesn't this approach prevail?

Using OZON in a reef aquarium? As the effects of halogens in closed marine systems are still not very well understood, I would not make use of OZON in a reef aquarium. Corals and other organisms seem to be very sensitive to bromides.
ORP reading is something I do not use.

Using OZON, will it restore the inorganic nutrient balance ?

There are very effective polymers for removing DOC on the market, but they will not solve the inorganic nutrient problem.

A trickle filter is only one of many possible applications. It is not very suitable for Active aquarium management, AAM
It is most effective to support the carrying capacity .

What is going in must be used or and exported.


As explained, inorganic nutrient production and export can be managed easily using a good biofilter;
nitrate
The difference with modern aquaria is now only the display tank is the biofilter, not mutch is manageable anymore and the bioload must be kept very low. The new style is certainly NOT better.

AAM is a very simple approach based on how closed marine systems are managed for many decades since marine animals are cultured in closed marine systems.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Ozone in reef aquaria.

but they will not solve the inorganic nutrient problem

What is the inorganic nutrient problem? And why must nutrients be inorganic?

As explained, inorganic nutrient production and export can be managed easily using a good biofilter;

I think it is a misconception that trickle filters or other oxidizing biofilters produce inorganic nutrients. Decomposition releases ammonia from proteins and amino acids, but the place is usually not the filter but macro organisms (fish, polychaets, crustaceans) and micro organisms (bacteria etc.). Oxidizing biofilters oxidize ammonia to nitrite and nitrate. In my eyes this is a degradation and devaluation.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Ozone in reef aquaria.


What is the inorganic nutrient problem? And why must nutrients be inorganic?

I think it is a misconception that trickle filters or other oxidizing biofilters produce inorganic nutrients. Decomposition releases ammonia from proteins and amino acids, but the place is usually not the filter but macro organisms (fish, polychaets, crustaceans) and micro organisms (bacteria etc.). Oxidizing biofilters oxidize ammonia to nitrite and nitrate. In my eyes this is a degradation and devaluation.

Oxygen-consuming biofilters produce CO2, nitrate, phosphate and all other basic elements of which organics are made.
Oxygen-producing biofilters consume CO2, nitrate, phosphate and all other essential inorganic nutrients left behind by the oxygen consuming biofilter, assimilating everything into organics.

A biofilter may contain anything that grows and lives as long the carrying capacity is supported.

The wonders of life.

 

[Futuretotm]

@Hans-Werner @Belgian Anthias
Thank you for this wonderful discussion.

Two questions for you guys:
(1) you state a bit higher level of phosphate is good ie 0.1. High PO4, Low NO3 - is this advisable for new tanks as well?


(2)
I thought this was a commandment from the bible?
"Phosphate is an algal nutrient and can limit the ability of calcifying organisms to form a calcium carbonate skeleton (Farley, 2006)" @Randy Holmes-Farley any idea at what concentration, in your article it was mentioned to keep PO4 <0.05.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Thanks for the positive feedback!

(1) you state a bit higher level of phosphate is good ie 0.1. High PO4, Low NO3 - is this advisable for new tanks as well?

Yes, in my opinion this is advisable for new tanks as well, maybe even more than for mature and more stable tanks. Significant phosphate levels like 0.1 ppm will help kickstart coralline and coral growth and will shorten the ugly phase. In my eyes it is maybe the most important factor for stable tank conditions and will reduce general problems with coral growth and other problems a lot. It is the most underrated nutrient, I am convinced.

 

[Futuretotm]

Ok I am back. Since my last post (been about 3 months) I followed the advise on this thread.
I used to dose Lanthanum to control my PO4, I stopped. (young tank - 1 year old)

My Nitrate stabilized at 12ppm (Nyos)
My PO4 stablilzed around 0.1-0.15 (goes up when I feed with Reefroids)

What got me is:
Algae almost all gone from my DT (I have a refugium)
LPS are FAT, I've never dosed Mg, I had to do it for the first time last week
SPS show PE and growing as well, some are a nicer color as well, my Alk consumption has gone up as well, dosed ca for the second time last week


I am seeing growth everywhere.

 

[ScottB]

Ok I am back. Since my last post (been about 3 months) I followed the advise on this thread.
I used to dose Lanthanum to control my PO4, I stopped. (young tank - 1 year old)

My Nitrate stabilized at 12ppm (Nyos)
My PO4 stablilzed around 0.1-0.15 (goes up when I feed with Reefroids)

What got me is:
Algae almost all gone from my DT (I have a refugium)
LPS are FAT, I've never dosed Mg, I had to do it for the first time last week
SPS show PE and growing as well, some are a nicer color as well, my Alk consumption has gone up as well, dosed ca for the second time last week


I am seeing growth everywhere.

Great news and thanks for the update.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Algae almost all gone from my DT (I have a refugium)
LPS are FAT, I've never dosed Mg, I had to do it for the first time last week
SPS show PE and growing as well, some are a nicer color as well, my Alk consumption has gone up as well, dosed ca for the second time last week

I am seeing growth everywhere.

Thank you for the update! I am not surprised but I am glad that it turned out so well.

Magnesium consumption is most likely by coralline algae.

The better colors with higher phosphate concentrations in my opinion is also something very obvious, something you really can see.;Watching And it is quite the opposite of brown or browning.

For the record - significant phosphate concentrations cause

- better coralline algal growth
- less hair algal and other nuissance algal growth
- better coral polyp extension
- better coral growth
- better coral colors, less brown

I am less sure but in my opinion even fish are less nervous and less shy but show calmer and more natural behavior with more mating acitvities although there seems to be no obvious mechanism.

 

[Cory]

Thank you for the update! I am not surprised but I am glad that it turned out so well.

Magnesium consumption is most likely by coralline algae.

The better colors with higher phosphate concentrations in my opinion is also something very obvious, something you really can see.;Watching And it is quite the opposite of brown or browning.

For the record - significant phosphate concentrations cause

- better coralline algal growth
- less hair algal and other nuissance algal growth
- better coral polyp extension
- better coral growth
- better coral colors, less brown

I am less sure but in my opinion even fish are less nervous and less shy but show calmer and more natural behavior with more mating acitvities although there seems to be no obvious mechanism.

This is interesting. Why does significant phosphate cause better coral growth? Everything ive read says the opposite. How much is significant though?

 

[Futuretotm]

This is interesting. Why does significant phosphate cause better coral growth? Everything ive read says the opposite. How much is significant though?

I think these two did it for me.
Proper research (probably not level 1 double blind, but still, better than hearsay)

 

[ScottB]

I think these two did it for me.
Proper research (probably not level 1 double blind, but still, better than hearsay)

Oh my. I thought my phosphates were high. When I break .2 on the Hanna, the lanthanum bottle comes out.

Got a link to that piece? Or the title so I can find it on academia.edu?

 

[Futuretotm]

Oh my. I thought my phosphates were high. When I break .2 on the Hanna, the lanthanum bottle comes out.

Got a link to that piece? Or the title so I can find it on academia.edu?

It’s in the first few pages of this thread

I think low nitrogen 5-10 is how you control algae As it’s the limiting factor instead of Po4

Again not an expert here. Hopefully someone more qualified will come along

 

[schuby]

Yes. At what levels does phosphate inhibit calcification?

 

[rusgum]

Ok I am back. Since my last post (been about 3 months) I followed the advise on this thread.
I used to dose Lanthanum to control my PO4, I stopped. (young tank - 1 year old)

My Nitrate stabilized at 12ppm (Nyos)
My PO4 stablilzed around 0.1-0.15 (goes up when I feed with Reefroids)

What got me is:
Algae almost all gone from my DT (I have a refugium)
LPS are FAT, I've never dosed Mg, I had to do it for the first time last week
SPS show PE and growing as well, some are a nicer color as well, my Alk consumption has gone up as well, dosed ca for the second time last week


I am seeing growth everywhere.

Nitrate is about 1, phosphate ranges from 0.1 to 0.15. I have kept such parameters for many years, corals grow in good color. Keep this phosphate.

 

[Futuretotm]

Nitrate is about 1, phosphate ranges from 0.1 to 0.15. I have kept such parameters for many years, corals grow in good color. Keep this phosphate.

Saw your build thread, it’s awesome!

 

[rusgum]

Saw your build thread, it’s awesome!

Thank you. Nothing complicated. I have not lost a single acropora in all the years.

 

[rusgum]

Saw your build thread, it’s awesome!

I consider phosphates to be the most important parameter, and for them I already adjust other parameters and how the filtering will be configured

 

[blasterman]

I discovered through trial and error that birdsnests can't handle low phosphate or they stop growing. I can literally turn growth nodes off like a light switch.

Montipora are particularly ravenous when its comes to phosphate. My 20l is crammed full of digitata and I a have to practically run phosphate in my doser.

Given that ocean levels of phosphate are so much less than captive tanks i suspect captive corals are adapting to the high phosphate levels as just a less costly source of fuel.