Interesting new findings about nutrion flux - especially nitrogen - and coral reefs

Lasse

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topjimmy

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Brighwell guano or home brew? Which works better for you?


[emoji41]
 

Scrubber_steve

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Yesterday one very interesting ecological study was published. All how discuss nutrients and coral reefs maybe has to rethink about ULN methods.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05355-y

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0202-3

Sincerely Lasse
"The authors find that reefs near rat-infested islands have fewer nutrients, fewer fishes and reduced numbers of fishes grazing on the algae that compete with corals."

So, add this to the reduction in population of algae grazing organisms by overfishing & disease & we have another explanation for why some coral reefs struggle against algae.
 

Tristren

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Some really significant numbers in there too. The biomass of fish on reefs around the non-rat islands was 48% higher. That's quite the jump.

Reading the article (but not having access to the full study) it looks like they measured the presence of nitrogen directly in sponges and algae. Which is a good way of doing the study, but (@Lasse, @Randy Holmes-Farley) what does it tell us about nutrient levels in the water?

My understanding (mainly from @Ryanbrs videos I think) is that the perspective from the hobby is that NSW has undetectable nutrient levels but also an infinite amount of nutrients when looking broadly. I suppose the problem with that is it conceives of an homogeneous level of nutrients, which isn't the case. And as this study shows there are optional and suboptimal levels for reefs.

But do we have a way / have we figured out what level of nutrients corals are exposed to in, say, a 24 hour period? That building from the 0 levels in any given cubic foot of water but higher in total.

Or maybe more practically, over a longer cycle? Presumably levels rise and fall over a year (rainy season, shifting currents etc) and presumably corals are optimized to take advantage of that?

Fascinating stuff...

Tony
 
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Lasse

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Dkeller_nc

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Hmm - I can see it now: "New from Red Sea! The Reefbird series - rimless, starphire glass fully reef-spec tank below, artful acrylic birdcage above; specially designed with a grid bottom to allow your feathered friend's waste to produce fantastic coral growth like you've never experienced before!"

But rather more seriously, it's incorrect to think of a natural reef as a low nutrient environment. A low dissolved inorganic nutrient environment, perhaps, but definitely not low nutrient. If you're a diver and have ever taken a night dive on a natural reef, you know this to be true - there's an absolute soup of plankton at night on the reef, to the point where visibility, even in the very limited range of a diving light, is sharply restricted.
 
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Lasse

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That´s correct - the figures we measure in the water column is only the left over – we have no idea of the total flux of nutrients in or around a reef. In this investigation it has been shown left over values of total dissolved inorganic N (nitrogen) between 0.005 ppm dissolved inorganic N to around 0.178 ppm N. The NO3 part of these figures alter between 0 and 0.789 ppm. The NH4 part of total inorganic N vary between 0.006 to 0.02 ppm. The interesting thing is that there in 3 of 4 cases of this investigation – the amount of free NH4 molecules is higher compared with the amount of NO3 molecules. The percentage of total inorganic N molecules that is in the NH4/NH3 form is 69 %, 9 %, 100 % and 59 % in the four sample occasions. For me – this is very interesting. The higher numbers in the 2013 April samples (at both location) must be caused of the rain (rain period) and land run off. At the Guano rich island – this test show 91 % nitrogen as NO3. If this is caused by fast nitrification over the reef or in the guano prior to the rain – I do not know. In fresh guano NH3/NH4 stands for around 15 % of the nitrogen load – the rest is organic N – however NH3 will leave to the air and the whole complex NH3/NH4 can be nitrificated into NO3 by time. The interesting thing is that in three samples (of 4) – at different locations and different sampling period NH3/NH4 is around 0.02 ppm but the NO3 content vary between 0.110 ppm to 0.789 ppm. The forth sample was like 0.02 ppm NH3/NH4 and 0 NO3 (Dec 2011 at the non-guano rich atoll of Cousteau)

The PO4 shows up another pattern. Around 0.01 ppm PO4 January 2011 at both locations and around 0.04 ppm for April 2013 at both location.

This is only 4 average samples. it can be very difficult to take some standpoints with only this investigation but – IMO – they indicate N limitation at Cousteau and that NO3 species of N can have importance for coral growth. But we have no idea how big the flux is – and which nitrogen species the most common in the flux – we only no what the leftover is! – the not used.

But – IMO – forget the zero vision for PO4 as a left over – it is not true because even then the inorganic N was near zero – the PO4 was around the same as it was in the location that DIN was 6 time higher.

As @Dkeller_nc highlight - the incoming organic nutrients (phyto and zoo plankton) are important too, but I have seen that these plankton swarms arise in the proximity of the reefs – getting their nutrients from the reef’s leftover and, sometimes upwelling of nutrient rich water from the dep. I.E. – the plankton blooms is a part of the reefs nutrient system.



Sincerely Lasse
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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There was an article similar but short to this
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41030-6#Bib1

About 8mo or so after reading it, I decided to put a parakeet above the 120 gallon tank, few members here can vouch for me,won't say names, I didn't post pictures, afraid of any back lash, or peta coming after me. I'd do it again eventually, perimeters were a little off, but I a tribute it to poor water circulation,filtration also lack of better CUC. But corals thrived, only ammonia NH3 spiked hard, of course a tribute to inadequate filtration, I think . But corals loved it. Fresh guano way to go. Wasn't prepared how guano would throw water perimeters off. Specially NH3. If I had seagulls above my tank that would of sealed the deal, at least one. Also over feed add to hair algae problem, I've come along way.

Screenshot_2018-10-31-23-47-13.png
 
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crusso1993

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There was an article similar but short to this
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41030-6#Bib1

About 8mo or so after reading it, I decided to put a parakeet above the 120 gallon tank, few members here can vouch for me,won't say names, I didn't post pictures, afraid of any back lash, or peta coming after me. I'd do it again eventually, perimeters were a little off, but I a tribute it to poor water circulation and filtration also better CUC. But corals thrived, only ammonia NH3 spiked hard, of course a tribute to filtration. But corals loved it. Fresh guano way to go. Wasn't prepared how guano would throw water perimeters off. Specially NH3. If I had seagulls above my tank that would of sealed the deal, at least one. Also over feed add to hair algae problem, I've come along way.

Screenshot_2018-10-31-23-47-13.png

Who would have ever guessed that poop would be cutting edge technology!
 

Fourstars

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Interesting article, Our Boxes of mouths say " feed me" Of course the tight nutrient cycling in our tanks easier to control, but hard to balance.
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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Found it, here's more proof, tank name was project parakeet, Aug. 18, 2018
He was well cared for, even had a fan by him.
Eventually poopy went to a good home, new owners didn't like poopy, called him tweety.
20180815_185634.jpg

Eventually poopy went to a good home, new owners didn't like poopy, called him tweety.
 

Corey Baker

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Why wouldn't bird poop(or just about any animal for that mater in moderation of course) be beneficial to aquatic life? Makes total sense to me. It works the same on land... Plants are just corals on land or corals are plants under water, which ever way you want to look at it ;). Typical landscape fertilizers are all broken down to 3 major parts Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium, which can and often come from compost, or animal waste of some kind which is again just broken down or digested material. Why do gardeners apply compost(poop) to soil before planting, why do we fertilize our lawns? Fore nutrients! As a side note i work landscape management in CA with a pesticide application license(yeup I'm that guy destroying the ozone:rolleyes:, save it, I've heard it) so its just the way I look at things, dont shot me!
Really awesome info here though! Land or Sea its all connect and we need to take care of it if we want it to last and the only way we cando so is by learning how it all works. Thank you for sharing!
 

Rick.45cal

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That´s correct - the figures we measure in the water column is only the left over – we have no idea of the total flux of nutrients in or around a reef. In this investigation it has been shown left over values of total dissolved inorganic N (nitrogen) between 0.005 ppm dissolved inorganic N to around 0.178 ppm N. The NO3 part of these figures alter between 0 and 0.789 ppm. The NH4 part of total inorganic N vary between 0.006 to 0.02 ppm. The interesting thing is that there in 3 of 4 cases of this investigation – the amount of free NH4 molecules is higher compared with the amount of NO3 molecules. The percentage of total inorganic N molecules that is in the NH4/NH3 form is 69 %, 9 %, 100 % and 59 % in the four sample occasions. For me – this is very interesting. The higher numbers in the 2013 April samples (at both location) must be caused of the rain (rain period) and land run off. At the Guano rich island – this test show 91 % nitrogen as NO3. If this is caused by fast nitrification over the reef or in the guano prior to the rain – I do not know. In fresh guano NH3/NH4 stands for around 15 % of the nitrogen load – the rest is organic N – however NH3 will leave to the air and the whole complex NH3/NH4 can be nitrificated into NO3 by time. The interesting thing is that in three samples (of 4) – at different locations and different sampling period NH3/NH4 is around 0.02 ppm but the NO3 content vary between 0.110 ppm to 0.789 ppm. The forth sample was like 0.02 ppm NH3/NH4 and 0 NO3 (Dec 2011 at the non-guano rich atoll of Cousteau)

The PO4 shows up another pattern. Around 0.01 ppm PO4 January 2011 at both locations and around 0.04 ppm for April 2013 at both location.

This is only 4 average samples. it can be very difficult to take some standpoints with only this investigation but – IMO – they indicate N limitation at Cousteau and that NO3 species of N can have importance for coral growth. But we have no idea how big the flux is – and which nitrogen species the most common in the flux – we only no what the leftover is! – the not used.

But – IMO – forget the zero vision for PO4 as a left over – it is not true because even then the inorganic N was near zero – the PO4 was around the same as it was in the location that DIN was 6 time higher.

As @Dkeller_nc highlight - the incoming organic nutrients (phyto and zoo plankton) are important too, but I have seen that these plankton swarms arise in the proximity of the reefs – getting their nutrients from the reef’s leftover and, sometimes upwelling of nutrient rich water from the dep. I.E. – the plankton blooms is a part of the reefs nutrient system.



Sincerely Lasse

The PO4 findings were pretty intriguing as well.

I think most aquarists (and humans in general) have a very difficult time comprehending that the nutrient poor water that’s tested on most reefs is only nutrient poor because of the active food web of the reef. We like to test and analyze things and you’re right all we can test for is what’s left over, when you start measuring in localized situations like these studies did, you start seeing a little better glimpse of the real picture.
 

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