Is Carbon, Nitrate, and Phosphate Dosing Bad For the Hobby?

[vetteguy53081]

Two of the big enemies mentioned- Feeding (overfeeding) and chasing numbers. These will haunt a system every time.
Filtration plays an important role in keeping certain levels in check and allowing nutrients to generate while removing necessary waste.
Each persons' system will be different and have its' own requirements. There are too many eager hobbyists that try to duplicate/imitate ones' success forgetting their water volume, type of water and age of tank may differ drastically.
Although a bit of reefing will be based on trial and error, we need to as hobbyists focus on enjoying our systems and not stress out about a low level such as sainity or PH as an example.

 

[road_runner]

Two of the big enemies mentioned- Feeding (overfeeding) and chasing numbers. These will haunt a system every time.
Filtration plays an important role in keeping certain levels in check and allowing nutrients to generate while removing necessary waste.

Could not agree more

 

[Montiman]

Isn’t the most TOC most skimmers can remove about 30%? So is bigger better?

The best part about a skimmer is its ability to quickly respond to nutrient additions. For systems experiencing sudden large influxes of organic matter skimmers are essential. If you periodically feed large amounts of coral food once a month or every other week your biofilter will only be able to process the sudden increase in organics at a relatively slow rate while a skimmer can remove a huge portion of organics in minutes.

Other systems that have periodic large inflows of organics include predator tanks, NPS systems, and any holding system like a retail or wholesale system or even a QT tank.

 

[Mortie31]

The best part about a skimmer is its ability to quickly respond to nutrient additions. For systems experiencing sudden large influxes of organic matter skimmers are essential. If you periodically feed large amounts of coral food once a month or every other week your biofilter will only be able to process the sudden increase in organics at a relatively slow rate while a skimmer can remove a huge portion of organics in minutes.

Other systems that have periodic large inflows of organics include predator tanks, NPS systems, and any holding system like a retail or wholesale system or even a QT tank.

Are you sure that is true? the Feldman article I just linked researched this and concluded 35% of TOC was the maximum a skimmer could remove which is the complete opposite of your claim? Could you please explain how a skimmer can behave as you suggest or provide links to support your claim, thx Paul

 

[Dana Riddle]

Thx Dana, unfortuanatly i cant view the entire paper, but the abstract seems to suggest a link to organic carbon overdose being an issue just as Rowher postulated in his work

I have that issue of Coral Reefs downstairs. I'll dig it out when I get a chance.

 

[ZaneTer]

Wow this is high, did you measure it or go off the pumps flow charts? What size tank do you have and what pumps do u use?

Hi Mortie31, long time no chat.
I’m using a DC14000 (700l liquid total) only rising up 5ft. That gives me pretty close to 20x turnover excluding head losses at about 25%

That’s how I get to the 15x turnover. I know the pump is oversized but I can turn it down if I want plus I really like this return pump.

 

[road_runner]

Hi Mortie31, long time no chat.
I’m using a DC14000 (700l liquid total) only rising up 5ft. That gives me pretty close to 20x turnover excluding head losses at about 25%

That’s how I get to the 15x turnover. I know the pump is oversized but I can turn it down if I want plus I really like this return pump.

Hmm am not so sure about that. If you care measure it you might be suprised..
That being said I think you shoild have plenty of flow, but I do not think is what you think it is..

 

[ZaneTer]

Hmm am not so sure about that. If you care measure it you might be suprised..
That being said I think you shoild have plenty of flow, but I do not think is what you think it is..

You are correct! Flow chart reveals a 33% drop for that height.

 

[road_runner]

You are correct! Flow chart reveals a 33% drop for that height.

Head pressure doenot mean actual height. If you want to calculate head pressure you need to apply hydrodynamic formula that account to each joint, elbow and pipe internal width...am telling you, you will be suprised...

 

[ZaneTer]

I could hookup a 32mm flowmeter but this pump won’t be used in the next build come October. It’s a shame as I really like it but I won’t have use for a return pump as the sump and DT will be at the same level.

 

[road_runner]

...

 

[ZaneTer]

Flow is the one thing in my tank I have never worried about

 

[ZaneTer]

Oh yes back on topic, for the new build I will be running a bacteria driven system. To this end I will be carbon dosing (vodka) beginning at a relatively low dose of 1 litre into my 1000 litre ATO. Nitrates will be clamped at 20ppm and phosphate at 0.15ppm

Depending on the results I may increase my ATO vodka content to 2 litres. The next tank is a fully synthetic build and is entirely an experiment to see if things can be done better than traditional methods as well as entertainment for myself. There will be a refugium containing a skimmer and some large grain sand with upwards flow. No sand or live rock in the display.

Results will be documented for a year be it good or bad.

 

[road_runner]

.

 

[Ike]

I run a higher flow because it keeps the temperature more stable. Heaters and probe are in the sump.

A higher turnover keeps the temperature delta between DT and sump to an absolute minimum.

Haha, and I don't like stable temps in reef tanks

 

[Ike]

Lol. I wish. My reef octopus ran me $400. I wish I had a grand for a better one

What size tank and which skimmer are you using?

 

[ZaneTer]

I let mine fluctuate by 1.5’C but no greater than that. I think the temperature swing of that range is healthy.

 

[Ike]

Agreed and that was my point. I cannot think of any harm if you have flow above that threshold.

Probably not, but my last two systems have had one tank with greater turnover and it has always had the most algae growth of the three. Could have been for plenty of other reasons like internal flow or herbivores, but lighting was pretty comparable. Also, I couldn't find a DC pump that could handle my back pressure and do more than 1000 gph, so sticking to my old tried and true method with this one was an easy decision

 

[road_runner]

..

 

[Ike]

Because I don’t do SPS, I hesitated on reposting on this thread. I am here to learn and this thread has much information to be digested on the science & Art of reefkeeping.

The science of phycology is a major component of reefkeeping. Unfortunately, we can’ fix others anytime soon.


@Rick.45cal
Thank you for this nugget of pragmatism.

“There seems to be this persistent and fundamental belief in this hobby that we need to micromange a reef aquarium’s parameters when often that micromanagement is the root cause of the problems in the system. Instead of teaching people how to tell via coral growth and health we speak in numbers, values of parameters. Parameters are important, but the folks that reef exclusively by numbers are almost always the one struggling”

I wanted to post this in the general discussion originally, but opted for the SPS forum because I think Acrpora are the most typical victims of low nutrient issues from what I've seen and experienced. I'm hoping a lot of other people that don't keep SPS chime in, so please stick around!