Is Indonesia Ban going to lift?

[LIreefguy]

The example is irrelevant about ivory. So let’s move on from that
As far as coral farming goes those 3 companies simply didn’t export enough corals to meet the demand and the other local guys importing simple didn’t get all there corals in a legal way
I am telling you. A lot of the corals we got where from independent guys in row boats.
I know a guy who lived in Indonesia for 5 years and ran one of the wholesale paces

He had his own collectors but there where also private collectors
Indonesia doesn’t have the resources to police this Unlike Australia does
The reason they didn’t go to macro cultural was they whereby able to police it and didn’t know where the funds where coming from

The reason why they are thinking about bee turning the ban is because a lot of people lost jobs and the few big companies left and lobbying hard to get it over turned

Plus your forgetting coral farming works better with sps. Not so great with lps
Also you forgetting that people like the hot new coral that no one has or seen. One that’s super rare.

 

[LIreefguy]

I don’t know why people don’t understand over fishing Well in this case over coral harvesting 85 percent of the corals we got where from Indonesia. What % do you think was harvest from coral farming. Come on guys
Australia has the biggest reef in the world yet it’s Indonesia that exports the most. No one wonders how they can keep this up

Anytime you have super poor people and a resource that seems massive it hard to explain to them that one day it will be gone. These people don’t know where there next meal is coming from

As a human who loves animals I don’t care if I every get another coral from the ocean. I only care that one day my child can see wild reefs flourishing.
Yes as a hobbiest I like to see the ban lifted. But as a human only if it’s done right.
Because as stated above people who dive there will tell you there reefs where getting decimated

 

[Phildago]

Lift the ban! The

The exact same arguments against coral harvesting are made by extremists against logging. They are wrong in both cases for the same reasons. Corals grow faster than trees.

It's all so tiresome...

Yeah, it's a bunch of people too lazy to do anything themselves that want to be able to pat themselves on the back and feel like good people. In the case of renewable resources, allowing people to profit of of said resource will have a positive impact on it. People protect the things that matter to them, and more often than not a persons livelihood is at the top of that list.

So, if you allow people to profit off of corals, they will ensure the survival of corals. All that putting restrictions on it does is hurt the people who depend on it, and probably wild populations because there will be no one invested enough to put effort into protection.

 

[sde1500]

I think the ban should be in place for life. The way that Indonesia decimated the reefs is unfathomable.

One should understand more about a person before they speak about them. When you read and look at things online you might get some knowledge. When you live there you understand the entirety to the issue. I didnt think I needed to state what purpose I had I was just giving a little insight on it. Sorry for jacking the thread didnt mean to offend you King Homer.

Saying that its decimated because I saw it first hand being decimated. I think first hand account is much better than just what ever info you have is I'm not trying to undermine your studying but check more sources or better than that see it with your own eyes. Not YouTube.

It took you 4 comments to even hint that you possibly were from the area, or visited it once. Also not really sure how it matters. Any ban that unequivocally bans export of sustainable coral culturing is pretty dumb IMO. It accomplishes nothing beyond shutting down sustainable industry and costing jobs. So you having seen the reefs is irrelevant.

I don’t know why people don’t understand over fishing Well in this case over coral harvesting 85 percent of the corals we got where from Indonesia. What % do you think was harvest from coral farming. Come on guys
Australia has the biggest reef in the world yet it’s Indonesia that exports the most. No one wonders how they can keep this up

Anytime you have super poor people and a resource that seems massive it hard to explain to them that one day it will be gone. These people don’t know where there next meal is coming from

As a human who loves animals I don’t care if I every get another coral from the ocean. I only care that one day my child can see wild reefs flourishing.
Yes as a hobbiest I like to see the ban lifted. But as a human only if it’s done right.
Because as stated above people who dive there will tell you there reefs where getting decimated

I don't know how much was farmed. But I don't see why it needs to be banned? How is your "knowing a guy" relevant to the fact that a sustainable method of producing corals was banned from export? Even if it is not a full lift of the ban, if sustainable mariculture facilities can begin exporting corals again, it supports jobs in the area. And will serve to provide more corals to the world. There are literally multiple companies in that area working to employ and educate people on the reefs and how to manage them. They even have to reseed the wild reefs with something like 10% of what they produce. Can't do that if they can't make a living selling what they produce now can they? I can't see how anyone would argue against revisiting a blanket ban and starting to allow mariculture exports again. I've yet to see a good case made.

 

[TaylorPilot]

Saying that its decimated because I saw it first hand being decimated. I think first hand account is much better than just what ever info you have is I'm not trying to undermine your studying but check more sources or better than that see it with your own eyes. Not YouTube.

Do you have any pictures from your trips? It might give some a better idea of what you mean. i think everyone is for sensible legislation, but with most things in govt, they enact things without any common sense because it is easier to hammer nails with a sledge hammer and say you are doing something, then to actually fix the problem.

 

[William Mumford]

Do you have any pictures from your trips? It might give some a better idea of what you mean. i think everyone is for sensible legislation, but with most things in govt, they enact things without any common sense because it is easier to hammer nails with a sledge hammer and say you are doing something, then to actually fix the problem.

I have no before and after type pictures it wasnt an over night change it was something that I remember being there when i was a kid that just is not there anymore. I can take pictures now but from when I was a kid there was no cell phones to take a picture or a drone to get footage. Be fully aware that the coral trade is not the only factor at all far from it

 

[LIreefguy]

This is pointless
The people who where there are telling you it wasn’t working. But you know best
Because it took him 4 post to tell you he was there and because my friend family owns Emark we both most not understand that coral farming is sustainable
What we are telling you by him first hand and me though many many talks with my friend who also lived there it that coral farming doesn’t nearly make up enough of Indonesia exports as many like you to believe

And they rather close the whole thing down the risk pouching. Also they do t care about the jobs because if the reefs go the fish go and last time I checked the fishing industry is a lot more important and makes more money than the coral industry

It’s also why we no longer get corals from the Philippines they care more about the reef and the fishing than they do me having a nice piece for my tank

Stop using google to learn everything and talk to the actually people who are there if you can’t do the next best thing and go there yourself

 

[LIreefguy]

It would be great if Reef2reef came up with a Trip or something. Would be great to go see the reefs out there. Maybe have it a yearly thung. Bet many people would love that.

 

[Larry L]

The First Official Statement on the Coral Ban from the Indonesian Fisheries Dept. | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

It’s been 3 weeks, since a new fisheries department minister was appointed in Indonesia. Under the former minister who was responsible for the ban, there’s hasn’t been any release of an official…

reefbuilders.com

 

[tweeter]

Disappointed and Sad that I clicked this post. I Reef and hang on here so I DON"T HAVE TO HEAR THIS STUFF. Hang at my lfs cause it is like the only place I can go anymore where I don't have to listen to someone telling me what I can say and what I should think, how I should act Or how I should vote. Just wanna Reef.. Guess that's shot now. Be careful what you wish for people can find other places to hang where they don't get lectured by the people who know Everything. Peace Out

I wish I had a LFS that I could hang out at. The owners here give you the cold shoulder and some sassy remark, then go to their office. That's that.....Oh well.

 

[Hermie]

Acropora can reach reproductive maturity in 3-5 yrs. Some trees grow that fast, but few. It's a very appropriate analogy.

Interesting... But the issue is so vast that this fact alone cannot settle it.

 

[JaimeAdams]

Tagging

 

[LIreefguy]

William sounds like a well spoken educated reefer. While you don’t have to agree with all
His opinions or facts. You should respect them and not be rude like the others did
They is a way to discuss a topic and a way not too. You choose the lather

 

[evolved]

Just a reminder that a spirited debate is welcomed and just fine here, HOWEVER, personal attacks will not be tolerated. Thanks!

 

[sde1500]

I think you're going a bit far suggesting I'm no productive member here. I'd like to think I offer a valuable perspective and oftentimes lend advice to fellow members. You're welcome to your opinion of course. I'd suggest though that you expand your perspective to beyond this single post.

My entire discussion here has focused on companies that mariculture. Ones that many, maybe even most, people believe should not have been swept up in the ban. These companies grow the coral they sell, they even transplant some that they grow to restore the reefs. If ever there were a way to both promote sustainability, improve the lives of the people you have so strongly pointed out are poor, and to protect the reefs through transplantation and education, it would be supporting a strong mariculture industry. You argue around this that mariculture can't replace the full volume of what used to come from Indo, but I never said it would. But more sources is better than less. And the more varied industries that the country has, the more industries that have a vested interest in health of the reefs, the better it is for the country and their reef resources. My snark is due to the fact that nothing more than hearsay is provided as a counterpoint. "I know a guy who says most coral is wild harvested" or "I lived there, I know more than you" isn't a strong point. Can it be true? Certainly. But when I find sources from the companies themselves and I'm told to

Stop using google to learn everything and talk to the actually people who are there if you can’t do the next best thing and go there yourself

it makes discussion difficult. Because what more do I have? I likely won't travel there for sometime, and the research I've done on the internet yields valid sources. I say "look at all these corals they have on racks that they keep growing out and could sell." Video proof of mariculture's potential. You say "My exporter friend says most corals come from some poor guy hacking them off a reef in his rowboat". Internet hearsay, nothing more.

And they rather close the whole thing down the risk pouching. Also they do t care about the jobs because if the reefs go the fish go and last time I checked the fishing industry is a lot more important and makes more money than the coral industry

But what happens when you shut off the livelihood of thousands of people? They find other work maybe. But suddenly, a lot of coral is coming from Malaysia. Some seems legit. Some importers won't even touch the stuff because its likely poached and smuggled out of Indo. So it is happening anyway.

End of the day of course it is important to protect the reefs. It is important that they take the time to review their decisions and make sure that not only were they done for the right reasons, but were implemented in the best way possible. With the person who previously made the decisions supposedly having a vested interest in the outcome, I think it right to review the nature of the ban.

 

[TVV]

Indonesia and its officials are all about money and corruption, although there, they don't consider it corruption. To Indonesian officials it is just part of "the cost of doing business". Those that hold the cards, get paid for those cards in payoffs and "expensive presents". the payoffs and presents are actually factored into contracts which makes the end product or service expensive.

The quickest way to lift the ban is to pay the right individuals to have it lifted. Not the promises of incremental increases of revenue to a certain trade or business group. If it is not directly funnedled to them, the average Indonesian official doesn't really care. They will use the reports of "decimation" of their natural resources as a bargaining chip to get one's attention.

Of course that being said, it would not improve the collection methods or resultant damage uncontrolled coral collection may have on the rich Indonesian reefs. It would continue; once the reef blood money is spent, they will ban again until the next round.

 

[LIreefguy]

So let me make sure I am understanding you correctly. The people who lived there and saw it first hand. And a guy who currently imports fish from Indo and who used to import 100 of boxes of coral a week isn’t a good source of information. But the article you read online is
You reading an article by Walter smith is a great source. Like the guy who makes millions of dollars a year on it might has a bias opinion

Indonesia has no way to police the industry. You keep skipping this point.
How can they tell where the coral came from.
They do not have the money or means to control it
So they decided that for the good of the reefs they would close the whole thing
I know you didn’t say it someone else did

To say there all corrupt. Like our politations aren’t just as bad. But this isn’t a political debate.

 

[Reesj]

Some people acting like proffesors of the matter while never having lived in a developing nation that export corals. Quite amusing people talking about currput politicians when you think about who will they get paid from. Will they get paid better by big coperations harvesting corals or nature conservators??

I live in a country with a coral ban and I undestand why it had to be put in place considering the tiny size of our reefs. People here talking about mariculture corals farms have no clue about the business going on in south east Asia. you guys think it is easy to monitor an operation liek this here ?

 

[Jax15]

That's the thing.... when prices are raised, it sets a precedent.

Say your favorite steak at Outback is $14.95

Say there is a shortage were Outback raises your steak to $19.95

I do not believe any Outback would revert back to $14.95 pricing just bc the shortage got remedied.

Just sayin'

I agree. Another good example is the price of water in California, or anywhere for that matter. During a drought period, prices surge up like crazy. But when the rain comes back like it did last year, and all reservoirs are full... prices then should go back down right? Ya, right.

 

[LIreefguy]

Great post.