Is it feasible to remove the skimmer? Could it solve the decades-long problem of nutrient accumulation?

[Belgian Anthias]

If one removes the skimmer without providing proper replacement, by providing balanced nutrient export , for sure the carrying capacity must constantly increase. What goes in must be used and reused but what is not needed must be harvested to keep the bio-load within limits. Active use of bio-filters ( managing remineralisation and growth rates) one always may and can adjust the carrying capacity to what is needed. This is not the case only using a skimmer for nutrient export.
Nothing or not much can be adapted to the needs with a skimmer, a skimmer will not ensure that nitrate will not build up, on the contrary.

Personally I do not bother much about the nutrient unbalance created by a skimmer in LNS or and VLNS

if I want to keep a mixed reef with a lot of fish and filter feeders, needing the same water quality, without having to worry about nitrate build-up for which all kinds of means have been devised to bring everything back into balance and of which the most used applications can possibly cause more damage than the presence of nitrate has ever been proven, and I am willing to spend some time on my hobby, then I think I can do it best without using a skimmer.

I can know what I'm adding with food but using a skimmer I'm left guessing what is being harvested, or rather, what is left behind. In combination with a skimmer it is much more difficult to control an aquarium based on nutrition and growth without causing deficiency diseases which can also be caused by too much of one in relation to the other.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

it is

Not sure how you would employ an air pump without having salt spray issues, but yes, skimmers are very good.

Scenarios where skimming might be less desirable is if the tank is focused on filter feeders and you are trying to keep suspended particulates in the water. Or maybe if nutrients are tooo low and you do not want to dose nutrients or feed more

Even in the case it would be a good aerator, it still will be a very expensive aerator.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

it is

Even in the case it would be a good aerator, it still will be a very expensive aerator.

Perhaps so. What alternatives do you suggest for aeration?

 

[jda]

I could not care less about nitrate. I don't have a new style sterile tank without sand and with rock that needs years to function. My tank can chew up nitrate like it is it's job - it kinda is it's job. I still think that it is somewhat dangerous to suppose and suggest that people don't use skimmers without a viable alternative just for phosphate accumulation alone... even with multiple skimmers, I have corals outgrowing my tank and export at least 5 gallon bucket of chaeto ever week or two.

This is why I caution folks about threads like these. ...full of supposition, long paragraphs about just one aspect of things without considering others, no real talk about how any organism is better off with more building blocks than are necessary to not be growth limited (very low numbers for our tanks).

Do all of this that you are talking about, find a way to measure DOCs removed with your other methods and then let us know - I know that I cannot measure what a skimmer removes, but I also know that I cannot measure what is removed by any other method, or what is added. I have been doing this since early 1990s, seen hundreds or these threads and heard a dozen more in-person talks. Nobody has come up with anything beyond conjecture and supposition.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

I could not care less about nitrate. I don't have a new style sterile tank without sand and with rock that needs years to function. My tank can chew up nitrate like it is it's job - it kinda is it's job. I still think that it is somewhat dangerous to suppose and suggest that people don't use skimmers without a viable alternative just for phosphate accumulation alone... even with multiple skimmers, I have corals outgrowing my tank and export at least 5 gallon bucket of chaeto ever week or two.

This is why I caution folks about threads like these. ...full of supposition, long paragraphs about just one aspect of things without considering others, no real talk about how any organism is better off with more building blocks than are necessary to not be growth limited (very low numbers for our tanks).

Do all of this that you are talking about, find a way to measure DOCs removed with your other methods and then let us know - I know that I cannot measure what a skimmer removes, but I also know that I cannot measure what is removed by any other method, or what is added. I have been doing this since early 1990s, seen hundreds or these threads and heard a dozen more in-person talks. Nobody has come up with anything beyond conjecture and supposition.

 

[ying yang]

.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I could not care less about nitrate. I don't have a new style sterile tank without sand and with rock that needs years to function. My tank can chew up nitrate like it is it's job - it kinda is it's job. I still think that it is somewhat dangerous to suppose and suggest that people don't use skimmers without a viable alternative just for phosphate accumulation alone... even with multiple skimmers, I have corals outgrowing my tank and export at least 5 gallon bucket of chaeto ever week or two.

This is why I caution folks about threads like these. ...full of supposition, long paragraphs about just one aspect of things without considering others, no real talk about how any organism is better off with more building blocks than are necessary to not be growth limited (very low numbers for our tanks).

Do all of this that you are talking about, find a way to measure DOCs removed with your other methods and then let us know - I know that I cannot measure what a skimmer removes, but I also know that I cannot measure what is removed by any other method, or what is added. I have been doing this since early 1990s, seen hundreds or these threads and heard a dozen more in-person talks. Nobody has come up with anything beyond conjecture and supposition.

 

[paintman]

I could not care less about nitrate. I don't have a new style sterile tank without sand and with rock that needs years to function. My tank can chew up nitrate like it is it's job - it kinda is it's job. I still think that it is somewhat dangerous to suppose and suggest that people don't use skimmers without a viable alternative just for phosphate accumulation alone... even with multiple skimmers, I have corals outgrowing my tank and export at least 5 gallon bucket of chaeto ever week or two.

This is why I caution folks about threads like these. ...full of supposition, long paragraphs about just one aspect of things without considering others, no real talk about how any organism is better off with more building blocks than are necessary to not be growth limited (very low numbers for our tanks).

Do all of this that you are talking about, find a way to measure DOCs removed with your other methods and then let us know - I know that I cannot measure what a skimmer removes, but I also know that I cannot measure what is removed by any other method, or what is added. I have been doing this since early 1990s, seen hundreds or these threads and heard a dozen more in-person talks. Nobody has come up with anything beyond conjecture and supposition.

Can we all see some pics of the corals "out growing" your tank? Please?

 

[jda]

Did you look? My rebuild thread starts with exactly this...

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Needed? Of course not. Just a single example of an acceptable reef aquarium without one is proof they are not "needed".

A better question is if they are beneficial to most reef tanks.

IMO, that answer is yes, but there may be scenarios where a tank may be better off without one.

Personally, I'd use one for aeration alone, even if it did nothing else useful.

Beneficial? Maybe but only if it is the only means of exporting nutrients . As may be the case in most reef tanks.

For the moment we do not know what is the roll of the skimmer in cases where it went wrong,
Is selective removal of nutrients benificial for reef aquaria? Maybe, maybe not. It is done this way for a very long time with success. it also is about what we consider to be a succes.

What if we can manage the removal of most if not all nutrients and DOC without making much of a distinction, possible without using a skimmer , made more difficult using one?
Using it as an aerator? Removing yellowing and toxins? Much more reliable and better manageable alternatives are available for everything.


In a reef aquarium with sufficient water movement and good skimming of the water surface, the increase in aeration due to the use of a skimmer will be minimal or non-existent, if significant, one can speak of poor water management.
ref: MB eiwitafschuimer CMF De Haes 2017-2021

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In a reef aquarium with sufficient water movement and good skimming of the water surface, the increase in aeration due to the use of a skimmer will be minimal or non-existent, if significant, one can speak of poor water management.
ref: MB eiwitafschuimer CMF De Haes 2017-2021

That is not correct. Gas exchange is almost never complete on any reef tank (proof: pH changes day to night).

As I said, I would use a skimmer for its aeration alone. Without it, my tank had inadequate gas exchange. The pH got too high.

I also think it is very useful to keep organics from accumulating as much as they would without it, and I personally see zero drawback to using one.

If N and P are too high or too low, there are many ways of dealing with it.

 

[drblank1]

I’m with you , I would rather not have a skimmer and let the food/proteins be recycled by other organisms but the skimmer has the important task of oxygenation and I think that is needed especially in my setup, the sump has very little flow

you could dial back your skimmer to not collect any waste and still get good gas exchange. just a thought.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

That is not correct. Gas exchange is almost never complete on any reef tank (proof: pH changes day to night).

As I said, I would use a skimmer for its aeration alone. Without it, my tank had inadequate gas exchange. The pH got too high.

I also think it is very useful to keep organics from accumulating as much as they would without it, and I personally see zero drawback to using one.

If N and P are too high or too low, there are many ways of dealing with it.

In heterotrophic based systems ( carbon dosing) the CO2 production peaks ( pH changes) depend on the dosing times, CO2 uptake during the day is limited. In heterotrophic orientend systems CO2 production is about the same, day and night. How pH was getting too high?


Anyway, as explained, if the skimmer is needed for propper gasexchange I would rethink my setup.

 

[Treefer32]

I removed my skimmer for 4 months on my 340 gallon mixed reef as a test. I started losing corals, tank was visibly stressed with rapid algae growth on the glass (1-2 days) and things just didn't look healthy. I have 26 fish, and not running a skimmer is not an option now. I pull out around 12 oz of skimmate a week that is the most foul smelling disgusting stuff. Plus a filter roller, plus a 25 micron nu-clear cannister filter, plus, the skimmer, an algae turf scrubber, and vodka dosing. My display is algae free other than the glass.

Pulling the skimmer is not an option, if nothing else simply for aeration.

 

[HuduVudu]

So I am near the ocean and it turns out the mother nature has a really kewl nutrient export mechanism. As stated earlier I am not a fan of skimmers, but nutrient export is indeed important. So I built a container and I am using marsh grass. Collection was kind of hilarious because black mud is really gross but I have it and it is growing. We will see in the long term, but in the short term the phophates went from .09 to .06 over a couple of days. I don't have a nitrate test but in the past nitrate has been pretty consistently near zero.

Food for thought.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

The evolution of TOC and DOC in a reef aquarium with or without a skimmer appears to be parallel in practice. Even when a skimmer is not used, the feed peak appears to be sufficiently removed in a natural way, 4 hours after feeding the TOC values have decreased to before feeding, the tests performed indicate that it is also possible without a skimmer, without selective removal of types TOC and DOC. The skimmer will contribute to the removal of TOC but the data shows that the contribution of the skimmer is not necessary. FeldmanEnCo2008-08)
From this I can conclude that what ends up in the jar is only a small part of the total TOC production and consumption, and that the color of the contents says little about the efficiency of a skimmer with regard to the total processing of TOC.

 

[steve bergmann]

3 tanks, 0 skimmers. I had one on a system but it was a constant battle to keep nutrients over 0, so it's collecting dust with the rest of the equipment I don't need.

I don't use a protein skimmer on my tank and nutrients are fine. The tank is 12 years old. I use a refugium. Here is a video of my tank this year:

 

[Joeg]

I pulled my skimmer well over 6 months ago and can't say that I regret it. My decision was more based upon frustration with a skimmer that would be dialed in and then for an undetermined reason it would just overflow at least once per week. I'd had enough and wasn't really interested in spending money on another one so I decided to take the plunge and yank it out. I had concerns about aeration as others have mentioned, but I think the flow through the sump and surface agitation should be enough. I worried about the tank crashing but that never happened.

The result for me was really no change in the tank. I have a mixed reef that's moderately stocked with fish and my combination of chaeto in the sump plus a Klir roller filter seems to keep things in balance. I even have to dose a bit of NO3 to balance out the barely discernable amount of PO4 each week.

As with most things in this hobby, what works for one person's tank might be a disaster for someone else's tank. I think it also comes down to what you're trying to keep as well. I'm going to guess that my setup would potentially be an environment for failure if I only wanted to keep high-end sticks but that's not really a concern because I already have enough sorrow in my life

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I removed my skimmer for 4 months on my 340 gallon mixed reef as a test. I started losing corals, tank was visibly stressed with rapid algae growth on the glass (1-2 days) and things just didn't look healthy. I have 26 fish, and not running a skimmer is not an option now. I pull out around 12 oz of skimmate a week that is the most foul smelling disgusting stuff. Plus a filter roller, plus a 25 micron nu-clear cannister filter, plus, the skimmer, an algae turf scrubber, and vodka dosing. My display is algae free other than the glass.

Pulling the skimmer is not an option, if nothing else simply for aeration.

Do you combine vodka dosing and an algae turf scrubber? On what parameter the vodka doses are based?

A skimmer is removed to solve the nutrient unbalance and nitrate build up issue , this assumes that sufficient filtration capacity is present (biofilter?)

 

[Treefer32]

Do you combine vodka dosing and an algae turf scrubber? On what parameter the vodka doses are based?

A skimmer is removed to solve the nutrient unbalance and nitrate build up issue , this assumes that sufficient filtration capacity is present (biofilter?)

Bacteria eats / consumes nutrients then dies. Something needs to remove the dead bacteria or it just reintroduces the stuff it ate back into circulation. Skimmers (I believe, but may have a false belief) consume the bacteria in the form of skimmate which then actually removes the nitrate / phosphate consumption.

That said, it could explain why my nitrates are 20 and my phosphates are .05. Well imbalanced.

The turf scrubber alone cannot keep up with my nitrate / phosphate generation of my tank. I vodka dose to increase bacteria load to process the amount of food and fish waste the tank generates. What is left behind is nutrient rich water for my corals, that keep the corals well fed as well.

I dose based on my testing results. I test each week and determine if things are stable or increasing from the previous week. If they are increasing then I raise my vodka dosing by a ml per day. Then retest. So far, I'm stable around 15 -16 ml per day.