is it possible for live sand to be cleaned-replaced- in a running tank?

[reef4life!!!]

Hi everyone and happy new year!!! I have a 65 gallon tank with live rock and live sand which is running for 7-8 years.So i am trying for the past 3 months to lower down my dang phosphates in order to get some corals and they don't seem to come down.My nitrates went down from 80 to 2-5ppm and they for the past 2 months are stable at that range. I've tried nitraphos(auquaforest) 50% water change at the begging, last month i placed phosguard(seachem) inside my canister filter and 5 days ago i started microbacter clean too.My question is could i remove-or replace - the whole sand(or at least as much as i can without disrupting the rocks) and clean in order to release any nitrates-phosphates the sand has?

*i use salifert test kits*


current setup:
1 eheim canister filter with mostly ceramics and 2 sponges
1 deltec mc600 hang on skimmer
live rock
live sand(i don't remever correctly but i thing it's aragonite)
tank is running for 7-8 years(poorly maintenance)

Current livestock: (i added the clowns almost 2 months ago and the rest of the fish 1 month ago, because i lost all my previous fishes from ich)
1 carpenteri wrasse
2 occelaris clowns
1 female meleagris
1 small japonicus

 

[gfox]

Ever thought about using new sand and taking out about 1/3 of old at a time?

 

[reef4life!!!]

Ever thought about using new sand and taking out about 1/3 of old at a time?

i don't know,i am a little worried about bacterias and the ammonia spikes that may occur

 

[brandon429]

whats the opinion on the link provided prior, the pages in it

from those patterns, how's this job most likely to turn out, if done as shown>100% happy is the likelihood per link. its nice not having to speculate for pages, in that link every two pages is three or so jobs with updates, for five years. its to the point I don't believe any other claims about sandbeds until they come with some invested collections I can discern for myself.

in response to po4 and nitrate readings: I wouldn't accept those are accurate reads anyway. ran on another kit they'll just read differently, so going off averages the params no longer matter here. we rip clean solely to get those after pics. if alternate conditions are wanted other than ruby clean reefs, we do not rip clean

the link is in the least a guide on how to rip clean any reef tank that shows up by using a certain order of ops. takedown is the right way, as listed.

but if someone wants an in tank removal of sand, if you want the most dangerous job possible in reefing, I'd suggest posting there for a custom job. there is no reason to take this risk, but am aware public resolve is strong. the safest thing you can do to clean a sandbed is select an option that comes with proof before you run your own tank job, and per that thread and sublink #3 removing in sections can result in doom.

 

[reef4life!!!]

whats the opinion on the link provided prior, the pages in it

from those patterns, how's this job most likely to turn out, if done as shown>100% happy is the likelihood per link. its nice not having to speculate for pages, in that link every two pages is three or so jobs with updates, for five years. its to the point I don't believe any other claims about sandbeds until they come with some invested collections I can discern for myself.

in response to po4 and nitrate readings: I wouldn't accept those are accurate reads anyway. ran on another kit they'll just read differently, so going off averages the params no longer matter here. we rip clean solely to get those after pics. if alternate conditions are wanted other than ruby clean reefs, we do not rip clean

i am sorry what link? the one in the first page?

* what do you mean here - rip clean-

 

[brandon429]

its the savagery that is taking apart full reef tanks, opposite of every common law and knowledge in aquarium procedure, but getting fantastic results=rip cleaning. we surgically take reefs apart because its safer than partial work, not because we like being masked rogues. its irony

what the greater public wants isn't the safest option, it doesn't account for sandbeds that may have sulfide buildups/unclean areas and our way does.

glad to post its this work. we get new entrants all the time for updated jobs, we just think its fun to do this kind of work, for whatever reason a person wants to change sandbeds or remove them.

removing some sandbeds in sections does work, many readers here have already done it successfully. the key is public reefs show up in so many loading variations, its just safer to clean them all 100% because skipping the new cycle is easy. that's the main point of this thread, that what bacteria do are predictable and that as long as a set of leftover live rocks is enough to run a reef, and they all are, then what we do with surrounding sandbeds, or sump media, or bioballs, doesn't matter for lack of bacteria

what matters is not kicking up dangerous detritus and tank waste during the work process, so that is why we disassemble reefs, to prevent bad from touching good.

the live rock doesn't take on replacement bac for having removed those, its simply enough on its own and we can now demonstrate this with live pattern from reefs here:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

I am fairly worried about moving my freshwater setup as it is fairly overstocked (reduces aggression as no one fish gets singled out). I did fail to think about the toxicity of nitrite on top of ammonia toxicity... Here is my plan for the cichlid tank. I have gradually reduced my pH from 8.2 to...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

*this pattern should stand out:

# of people who expect to have to do a deep clean or rip clean when they begin reefing= 0%. bad idea. everyone hates the idea.

# of people moving homes and now are forced into surgery, even if they didn't want to as many as linked above= 100%.

A need exists for the technique. I bet we preserve the life of half a million dollars in reefs there no joke, average 5K per reef.

so it turns out we are able to electively apply for benefit that which some unwillings had to do anyway because they changed homes. its not that the method is bad for tanks not moving, and some horrible last resort for home movers. Its that we found 100% of moved tanks working fantastic, and most DSB owners are unhappy with theirs in some way, or we'd have no work.


its all linked in skip cycle outcomes, if you want your sand changed we can.

 

[reef4life!!!]

question: if i remove the sand(which is dead aragonite) completely and rinse it how long should i wait before i add the live rock and the fishes back into the tank?
@brandon429

 

[brandon429]

its such a delicate job I have to recommend basing the plan on a given matched tank from the works. though the basic summary is re ramp all lighting, rinse thorough, there's small details like how to prep rocks for reinstallation (cleaning off detritus stuck to the bottoms in some cases) and you need to be able to intuit small unspoken details like that from studying works on file.
one person thought they'd hold rocks with fish...and detritus was caked on the rocks and a goby died due to the changeup, small details matter. we hold the fish and corals away from rocks and sand, the items that are associated with detritus.


your fish and corals sit in clean water holding containers w heat and circ, they have no set time in holding its as long as it takes you to work the sand/ how long they'll stay. and from seeing the jobs you get an idea of how many rinses is needed to reset the sand, an hour's worth I bet.

the jobs show how to prep new sand should you decide to change, gotta study an hour to prep no other way. too many good details build up over time to re log em all

the job is safe once you apply the right order, we aren't lucking into that many strong outcomes. but in reading jobs you'll see the bacteria are tougher than we ever thought; knowing that makes you more thorough, vs tempted to under-do the cleaning out of fear of bacterial loss and that's the dangerous mode. Youll already know how to clean your reef and its outcome before you begin, going off the patterns. its worth it for sure.

 

[brandon429]

post a pic of your tank lets see the ratios real quick I bet it wont be too hard at all to fix it right up

 

[brandon429]

saves forty pages of reading:

this 4 pager is the best condensed summary of sandbed flips Ive seen. two tanks done with military - like precision, pics show.

1. before pics, wrecked rocks wrecked sand, not having fun.
2. after pics, like rubies, having fun, 24 hours.

if they didn't put sand back it wouldn't matter.

if they put new sand, doesn't matter as long as its pre rinsed correctly.

if they put back old sand rinsed, that doesn't matter, due to not mattering if we went instant bare bottom. sand isn't as important as anyone made it out to be, its expendable, all at once- you just have to structure the removal so that messy waste doesn't touch fine corals or fish. no mixing in tank.

Algae Identification

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef2reef-pest-algae-challenge-thread-hydrogen-peroxide.187042/ there we are, many before and afters logged. Hey if you w post a pic of your tank here we can make you a custom job to save all the reading

www.reef2reef.com

 

[reef4life!!!]

post a pic of your tank lets see the ratios real quick I bet it wont be too hard at all to fix it right up

. That's the tank..

parameters are before my today's WC:
salinity -1.024-
nitrates -almost 5ppm-
phosphates -1.0ppm-

 

[Garf]

The rocks may be leaching phos back into the water, not just the crud in the sand.

 

[reef4life!!!]

The rocks may be leaching phos back into the water, not just the crud in the sand.

perhaps along with the sand i take out all the rocks and brush them?

 

[brandon429]

hey this will not be hard, that gives us ideal perspective

see the sand cross section, from end to end its white. you don't have the risky type apparently, and the tank isn't bulked up with fish its all in balance. *your offending biomass is so low indeed a cheap amazon uv sterilizer meant for a goldfish pond/$150 would zap that tank clean.

it would be different if your rock and back wall was all bearded up like the examples. they've got more mass, what you have is a smaller mass and if you get tired of rip cleaning simple UV alone I predict would clean that tank right up.


we'd install the uv in the clean condition however, a rip clean will really help that system reset its current waste holdings

and the minor growths shown will stay in control nicely but your tank is still maturing

these growths you see are a good sign, not a bad sign, your params have nothing wrong or UV wouldn't be such an easy option.

we expect these growths in new reefs, before they're antlered in yellow red and blue sps.

the fact you are having to deep clean is ok, the reef looks shiny because we like that look, not that your current setup looks bad at all.

instead of brushing, twist them in saltwater.


***you can draw off about half your tank water for quick re use

catch the first 1/2 that is all clean. the last half w be muddy mess.

 

[brandon429]

your tank looks so nice that there's other ways to fix it up besides a rip clean, but then again that reef doesn't have important things in the sand at this stage either...to get rid of the detritus that builds during cycling is ok

and a clean start too

less algae growth
I think you should go for it, those fish will easily skip cycle back in, swishing rocks in water or brushing small target areas only is fine.

put back clean rocks that cannot cloud, and sand that cannot cloud no matter how it's disturbed. that simple

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

How are you testing phosphates? Have you used a 2nd test kit to verify? High algae growth kinda indicates that it is high... just wondering

 

[Garf]

perhaps along with the sand i take out all the rocks and brush them?

You seem worried about upsetting your fish. Do you think Ich is still in the tank? Was it fallow for 12 weeks before restocking?

 

[reef4life!!!]

your tank looks so nice that there's other ways to fix it up besides a rip clean, but then again that reef doesn't have important things in the sand at this stage either...to get rid of the detritus that builds during cycling is ok

and a clean start too

less algae growth
I think you should go for it, those fish will easily skip cycle back in, swishing rocks in water or brushing small target areas only is fine.

put back clean rocks that cannot cloud, and sand that cannot cloud no matter how it's disturbed. that simple

the tanks was running for 8 years under very poorly maintenance.The first days of september i decided to get for real into the reef so i did massive WC,i pulled all the rocks out and i brushed them,i was cleaning my skimmer and my canister filter more often,i added nitraphos and finally with 9 fish in the tank i was able to get nitrates from 80ppm to 25ppm and phosphates using rowaphos only 1 time i dropped my phosphates from almost 3ppm to almost 1ppm.So after a vacuum i tried to do into my sand i lost all of my fish with ich so i left it for almost a month fallow(unfortunately my shop told me to left it fallow for 15 days and i believed him because i had lack of knowledge and now my japonicus already starts to have white spots on his fins but he already had white spots again and he was absolutely fine).Coraline algae was starting to spread in all my rocks quite fast.First days of november i added 1 pair of clowns and after a month at first days of december i added 1japonicus,1 female meleagris and 1 carpeteri wrasse.All this time except from a period where i used phosguard and aquforest minus together in my canister and my phosphates dropped down to almost 0.5ppm they are constantly around 1ppm.

That's my tank's story in short.

 

[reef4life!!!]

You seem worried about upsetting your fish. Do you think Ich is still in the tank? Was it fallow for 12 weeks before restocking?

i do have ich in my tank.My japonicus shows white spots on his fins but i think he already passed it like a week ago.I think he just get stressed because of my WC.This is what you get when you believe your shop that is telling you that 15 days fallow is enough to get rid of ich.

 

[reef4life!!!]

How are you testing phosphates? Have you used a 2nd test kit to verify? High algae growth kinda indicates that it is high... just wondering

i use salifert and no i didn't have a second test kit to verify.But yeah i do have a lot of algae so for sure i have very high phosphates