IS IT TRUE THAT 80% OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE FISH LOSSES DUE TO DIESESE/PARASITES IN FIRST 8 MONTHS IF DONT QUARANTINE ?

ying yang

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Hi all,hope all is well.

Just realised this is extremely long post so if want to skimm over it and just say if qt or not and have you lost fish in first 8 months or not to diesese/parasites feel free

I'm seeing over and over that if dont quarantine fishes and when buy cuc/inverts or add anything wet to tank then we will have fish losses from diesese/parasites before the 8 month point in 80% of cases,which seems extremely high.
Now this thread isnt to call anyone a liar who says this,it's just my curiousity and to get a rough gauge of the problem if it exists

As I'm having a very hard time thinking this to be the case as I've read countless threads on whether r2r members qt or not and majority do not qt at all so if 80% of people that don't qt have fish losses then that's absurd amount of fish dying,or is is it the case as I read often said that there's so many people posting about their fish died or dying from a fish diesese/ parasite and need help,that people are in the diesese forum because they got a problem and don't make a thread there saying " hey my fish are alive and well "

So......can copy and paste this next bit out if applies to you to make easier or add onto it or delete or answer how you may.just add time in if needed etc

I do an observational qt on all newly bought fish for ..... length of time .and also to get fish eating properley away from other fish.

I do a medicated qt on all newly bought fish and I use the following medications and follow jay hemdal or humblefish recomendations on dosage/ duration.

I only do medicated qt if fish shows sign of ill health .

I dont qt and just temp/ drip aclimitise my fish then add straight to display tank or some I read add to sump.

Then if you may say how many fish you lost in first 8 months of setting the tank up either lost whilst medicating from overdosing,equipment failure,bullying,diesese still showed up on fish even though did very extensive medicated qt,or if no qt and fish died of diesese/ parasites ( this last one is what I'm wanting to really find out) aw and roughly how long did it take for fish to die please.

Feel free to add anything you feel relevant as I've read many threads where people state there fish are immune to dieseses in their tank and they want to add parasites occasionally to refresh the fishes immunity,and they feed fresh food,live food and no dry food or very little etc .( only works in a very mature reef they say)
And I know there many contributory factors why a fish could die as could die ( diesese,parasites,wrong food,bullying,tank size,overstocked,or many other factors .

So is it 80% of people that make threads in r2r diesese forum lose fishes to diesese in the first 8 months of tank.
Or is it 80% of all reefers who don't qt at all lose fishes to diesese/parasites in first 8 months ?

I've read that either 100k or 300k of Americans in u.s have saltwater tanks by a r2r member ( how true this is or not idk but if even 100k and 80% of people just lose 2 fish to diesese/parasites in first 8 months then that's 160k fishes lost just in u.s alone or is it 80% of the posters that say there fish are diesesed lose fish in first 8 months that ACTUALLY start a thread then % of fish lost going be much lower.


I will start it off by saying new to saltwater at 9 months and 1 of first fish I bought had possible brookenla diesese and took straight back to lfs and got another 2 clowns from same tank and did observational qt for 30 days in same tank that I put first 2 clowns in and didn't change water or nothing and the rest of my fish I put straight in display tank and lost 0 fish so far ( lfs did tell me that the 2 clowns I took back,1 died few days later,it looked good when I bought it and dont know if missed the signs on that one clown or stress of it being in bag and/or bullying from other clown caused it to look so bad straight away as put in my qt tank idk)



Thanks very much and enjoy rest your day
 
Fritz
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ying yang

ying yang

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Little screenshot here from first post as then not as daunting all in one post.

But main question I'm wanting my curiousity answered is the amount of fish that die to dieseses/parasites really huge ?
 

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Jay Hemdal

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Little screenshot here from first post as then not as daunting all in one post.

But main question I'm wanting my curiousity answered is the amount of fish that die to dieseses/parasites really huge ?

Do you know where the 80% number came from? I've never done a survey across home aquarists, so I don't really have a good sense as to the actual number. I've made educated guesses that come to around that figure, but they include non-disease mortality of new fish as well. This includes failure to acclimate, cyanide damage, etc. This article discusses some of those issues:


I've done three studies since 1985, involving mortality rates in "Grade B, SE Asian Fishes". These are those smaller, fish from Indonesia and the Philippines, often suspected of being collected with cyanide; small green chromis, tiny hepatus tangs, small bicolor angelfish, etc. In these studies, the mortality rate of these fish, over better quality fish held in the same systems at the same time (ruling out major disease problems) runs about 40 to 60% over the first two months. Better quality fish rates for the same period runs about 10% These would include fish from Hawaii and Sri Lanka.

I see a skewed proportion of dead/dying fish here on R2R in the fish disease section. I typically don't hear from folks that don't have fish disease issues. So, for me, the eight month figure is more like 100% (grin).


Jay Hemdal
 

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Do you know where the 80% number came from? I've never done a survey across home aquarists, so I don't really have a good sense as to the actual number. I've made educated guesses that come to around that figure, but they include non-disease mortality of new fish as well. This includes failure to acclimate, cyanide damage, etc. This article discusses some of those issues:


I've done three studies since 1985, involving mortality rates in "Grade B, SE Asian Fishes". These are those smaller, fish from Indonesia and the Philippines, often suspected of being collected with cyanide; small green chromis, tiny hepatus tangs, small bicolor angelfish, etc. In these studies, the mortality rate of these fish, over better quality fish held in the same systems at the same time (ruling out major disease problems) runs about 40 to 60% over the first two months. Better quality fish rates for the same period runs about 10% These would include fish from Hawaii and Sri Lanka.

I see a skewed proportion of dead/dying fish here on R2R in the fish disease section. I typically don't hear from folks that don't have fish disease issues. So, for me, the eight month figure is more like 100% (grin).


Jay Hemdal
And therein lies the problem. I’ve only bought 5 fish, in the last 12 months. I have a zero mortality rate but haven’t ever raised a thread to show my magnificent fish keeping abilities. As I’m sure not everyone who has lost a fish as entered it into the disease forum.
 

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held in the same systems at the same time
This if cyanide can wipe out other fish. Even if a few of many had it. A lot of miss diagnosed, improper medication, or mixing meds, and lots more. All usually thought of as something but me killed my fish. Also these threads usually multiple posts, and sometimes more than 1 fish effected from 1 event. Some things seem to make the percentages look higher here. If you were to take a guess out of that 80% what would disease/parasite % be more realistically?
 
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ying yang

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Do you know where the 80% number came from? I've never done a survey across home aquarists, so I don't really have a good sense as to the actual number. I've made educated guesses that come to around that figure, but they include non-disease mortality of new fish as well. This includes failure to acclimate, cyanide damage, etc. This article discusses some of those issues:


I've done three studies since 1985, involving mortality rates in "Grade B, SE Asian Fishes". These are those smaller, fish from Indonesia and the Philippines, often suspected of being collected with cyanide; small green chromis, tiny hepatus tangs, small bicolor angelfish, etc. In these studies, the mortality rate of these fish, over better quality fish held in the same systems at the same time (ruling out major disease problems) runs about 40 to 60% over the first two months. Better quality fish rates for the same period runs about 10% These would include fish from Hawaii and Sri Lanka.

I see a skewed proportion of dead/dying fish here on R2R in the fish disease section. I typically don't hear from folks that don't have fish disease issues. So, for me, the eight month figure is more like 100% (grin).


Jay Hemdal
Hi Jay thanks for reply here.
I wasn't going mention no names in other thread " exactly same as this" but brandon then said was him who states its 80% of people will lose fish in first 8 months if dont qt or " diesese prep "
Was curious and asked in many threads if this is true or not.
Post 146 plus many others in this thread .
This thread we in now was brandons recomendation as thought me putting other thread in " fish discussion" would sway the results which I dont think it would as new posts go in just that ,( new posts ) so imo doesn't matter where thread started and took 2 days to get 1 reply .
But was just curious I'd the amounts that he states was true as 80% seemed to be very high indeed.
But if all replys in other thread are true then more like 90% don't lose fish to diesese// parasites in first 8 months ,and even if what brandon says I true and most lied in that thread and just went and bought another fish or whatever ,even if 50% lied its still huge % not dying .
Don't get me wrong im not against qt and not for it. I was just curious on others experiences as if someone says 80% of people have fish losses to diesese/ parasites and in 2022 we need stop all these fish losses or we shouldn't be allowed to have fish then surely needs backing up.
Thanks for sharing that article above .Will read it later as little busy at moment .
Btw I know this thread not scientific or anything like that and many factors why fish could die and sometimes reefers may not find out why so could sway results one way or another but was to just get a rough gauge of it wasn't to put people off qt as if someone thinks that's what they want to do then great go for it .that's why mentioned yours and humblefishes diesese protocal and how to medicate in that detailed thread you started .

Thanks for reply ^_^
 

Jay Hemdal

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This if cyanide can wipe out other fish. Even if a few of many had it. A lot of miss diagnosed, improper medication, or mixing meds, and lots more. All usually thought of as something but me killed my fish. Also these threads usually multiple posts, and sometimes more than 1 fish effected from 1 event. Some things seem to make the percentages look higher here. If you were to take a guess out of that 80% what would disease/parasite % be more realistically?
The trouble is it all has to do with sourcing. For my own work, I expect less than a 3% shipping loss and then less than a 10% loss in the first 40 to 60 days. But, this is from 50+ years of avoiding cheap, possibly cyanide collected fish, and doing my best at disease control during quarantine. I've measured my fish mortality rate for 20+ years. Post quarantine, it runs pretty consistently at 15% annually, This is from a group of about 2300 fish and includes FW fish and fish that die from "old age".

If I made a guess - a person buying pet store grade, SE Asian fish at a local "regular" pet store and not quarantining, is going to see about 80% mortality in a year: the 15% baseline, plus 40% inherent losses due to poor quality fish, leaving 25% loss from uncontrolled disease (which may include older fish exposed to sick fish).

Here is an example of quality control:

Hobbyist buys three 1" green chromis and a 2" orange anthias from Petco. They add these to their DT and lose them all, plus a bicolor angel they already had.

I buy six 2" green chromis from Tahiti and 6 Bartlett's anthias from the Marshall Islands sourced though a LA wholesaler I know of. I quarantine them and lose one Bartlett's.


Jay
 
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ying yang

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@ying yang I thought this was the same thread oops.
Ha ha no this thread started as I got told by me putting this thread in fish discussion forum then it would get more people who support not qt their fish so therefore would sway the results in favour of more replys to people saying didnt lose fish to diesese/ parasites than would if started this thread in this fish diesese forum so as I got asked to put it here ,I obliged and copied/ paste original post and started here and as expected not much interest here as most people would see this thread and think they already answered in it so just ignore this one.as what I do is just go to latest posts and look at new threads so to me it doesn't matter which forum it's in ,but i am not that tech savvy so maybe I'm looking wrongly idk
But as I said in other thread when had to defend my actions on why I started a fish discussion thread in " fish diesese " forum and my logical head seen fish discussion forum had more posts compared to here ( think it was 22k verses 17k here) so would get more foot traffic and get more replys .

But again was just my curiousity was that is it such a high number of fish that die to diesese/parasites as if make a statement like that it needs backing up,so what better way than ask reefers experience how many fish they lost due to diesese/parasites but seems as the high % of posters in other thread said didn't lose fish in first 8 months I then got accused making title to sway the results and put in certain forum to sway results along with other things and also its easy for people to lose fish then lie saying it didn't happen lol
But I
Asked a question and got alot of replys and doesnt seem to be anywhere near 80% but in conclusion to the answers in other thread does it mean new reefers don't have to qt new fish = no,does it mean new reefers don't have to qt new fish = no. It still means new reefers have to do their research and then decide and make an informed decision on what they think is best to do,and hopefully enjoy their tank and have healthy fish and to any new reefers if want qt fish jay hemdal has started a thread called " current diesese protocal " I think its called and get info on how he recommends to qt fish and with what medications and what dosage and duration and lots other useful info,and if dont want qt fish there also lots useful information On r2r about making the tank more comfortable/ less stressful for your fish as its our tank but the fishes home so imo its best to have enough rock,cut throughs,caves,fish can lose sight if each other and us,feed well,plus lots lots other good things to do and this applies if choose to qt or not
 

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The trouble is it all has to do with sourcing. For my own work, I expect less than a 3% shipping loss and then less than a 10% loss in the first 40 to 60 days. But, this is from 50+ years of avoiding cheap, possibly cyanide collected fish, and doing my best at disease control during quarantine. I've measured my fish mortality rate for 20+ years. Post quarantine, it runs pretty consistently at 15% annually, This is from a group of about 2300 fish and includes FW fish and fish that die from "old age".

If I made a guess - a person buying pet store grade, SE Asian fish at a local "regular" pet store and not quarantining, is going to see about 80% mortality in a year: the 15% baseline, plus 40% inherent losses due to poor quality fish, leaving 25% loss from uncontrolled disease (which may include older fish exposed to sick fish).

Here is an example of quality control:

Hobbyist buys three 1" green chromis and a 2" orange anthias from Petco. They add these to their DT and lose them all, plus a bicolor angel they already had.

I buy six 2" green chromis from Tahiti and 6 Bartlett's anthias from the Marshall Islands sourced though a LA wholesaler I know of. I quarantine them and lose one Bartlett's.


Jay
Based.

Jay you are one of the few "experts" I actually respect, because you provide honest and respectful responses, and real information. I wish I had a tenth of your levelheadness.

I would like to ask you some questions. I would like to be blunt (not rude that is not my intent) and I hope that it won't be taken wrong.

Ok here goes.

Do you have a home aquarium? I know it is very difficult to have go to work and then come home and be reminded of work. Further ... have you had home tanks in the past and for how long? I am asking because I think that your perspective is that of someone who deals with things commercially. You have to be aware of this fact. When you provide advice do you compensate for what they face vs. what you face? How?

Why do you suggest quarantine to new people (and older reefers I would imagine)? Open ended question.

I am not sure your compensation here if any at all, and I am really not interested in that part of it. What I am curiuos about is why you provide help to new people with diseases? When I worked in fish stores it was just miserable to deal with people and they would never really learn. Fortunately the cost drove them out, but for me I couldn't take it. I have aquired enough business acumen to do another store (but we both know that would preclude me from doing it ;) ) but I would never. The amount of people that just don't care is astounding. How do you do it?

Ok, don't want to torture you too much. :)

Thanks in advance for the response.
 
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The trouble is it all has to do with sourcing. For my own work, I expect less than a 3% shipping loss and then less than a 10% loss in the first 40 to 60 days. But, this is from 50+ years of avoiding cheap, possibly cyanide collected fish, and doing my best at disease control during quarantine. I've measured my fish mortality rate for 20+ years. Post quarantine, it runs pretty consistently at 15% annually, This is from a group of about 2300 fish and includes FW fish and fish that die from "old age".

If I made a guess - a person buying pet store grade, SE Asian fish at a local "regular" pet store and not quarantining, is going to see about 80% mortality in a year: the 15% baseline, plus 40% inherent losses due to poor quality fish, leaving 25% loss from uncontrolled disease (which may include older fish exposed to sick fish).

Here is an example of quality control:

Hobbyist buys three 1" green chromis and a 2" orange anthias from Petco. They add these to their DT and lose them all, plus a bicolor angel they already had.

I buy six 2" green chromis from Tahiti and 6 Bartlett's anthias from the Marshall Islands sourced though a LA wholesaler I know of. I quarantine them and lose one Bartlett's.


Jay
So essentially, a higher success rate starts with being more informed consumers — more aware of where we purchase fish/where the fish we purchase are coming from?
 

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@Jay Hemdal Lets say you took 100 fish - (not you) - the average new hobbyist - and got them from 'suspect' sources (not the ones you mentioned) - What percent do you think would die within a year from 'Disease or parasites' after a year - without QT - as compared to those from reputable sources without QT. I'm really interested in this - as my LFS sources from the Mashall islands - and I've had no problems. (but haven't bought a fish in over 5 years)
 
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ying yang

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Do you know where the 80% number came from? I've never done a survey across home aquarists, so I don't really have a good sense as to the actual number. I've made educated guesses that come to around that figure, but they include non-disease mortality of new fish as well. This includes failure to acclimate, cyanide damage, etc. This article discusses some of those issues:


I've done three studies since 1985, involving mortality rates in "Grade B, SE Asian Fishes". These are those smaller, fish from Indonesia and the Philippines, often suspected of being collected with cyanide; small green chromis, tiny hepatus tangs, small bicolor angelfish, etc. In these studies, the mortality rate of these fish, over better quality fish held in the same systems at the same time (ruling out major disease problems) runs about 40 to 60% over the first two months. Better quality fish rates for the same period runs about 10% These would include fish from Hawaii and Sri Lanka.

I see a skewed proportion of dead/dying fish here on R2R in the fish disease section. I typically don't hear from folks that don't have fish disease issues. So, for me, the eight month figure is more like 100% (grin).


Jay Hemdal
Cheers Jay.just read this article you shared earlier, thanks for taking time to initially write it and also share here,very interesting read indeed
 
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The "downside" of success.
And nervousness - I like the ones I have. I lost the male of a mated clown pair from jumping - about a lid - and no issues - In face I believe I lost 2 harlequin tusks - within the same time period - with no lid. But no disease, So I just don't add any more.
 
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@Jay Hemdal Lets say you took 100 fish - (not you) - the average new hobbyist - and got them from 'suspect' sources (not the ones you mentioned) - What percent do you think would die within a year from 'Disease or parasites' after a year - without QT - as compared to those from reputable sources without QT. I'm really interested in this - as my LFS sources from the Mashall islands - and I've had no problems. (but haven't bought a fish in over 5 years)
From post 8 above of Jay's incase you didn't see it as I know confusing having 2 threads same title same question etc

If I made a guess - a person buying pet store grade, SE Asian fish at a local "regular" pet store and not quarantining, is going to see about 80% mortality in a year: the 15% baseline, plus 40% inherent losses due to poor quality fish, leaving 25% loss from uncontrolled disease (which may include older fish exposed to sick fish)

So Jay's guess would be 25% but that could include older fish exposed to sick fish so guess jay means more likely to catch a diesese/ parasite.so nowhere near 80% just from diesese.
But as jay says its just a guess

Edit: just seen you say from " suspect sources"

This whole thing with the cyanide collection scares me as even if you do everything correct ,it's good chance your fish will die,I know divers,collectors need to feed families and all that but very scary thought indeed
 

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@Jay Hemdal Lets say you took 100 fish - (not you) - the average new hobbyist - and got them from 'suspect' sources (not the ones you mentioned) - What percent do you think would die within a year from 'Disease or parasites' after a year - without QT - as compared to those from reputable sources without QT. I'm really interested in this - as my LFS sources from the Mashall islands - and I've had no problems. (but haven't bought a fish in over 5 years)
I really couldn’t guess at that. I have that decent data on early non disease mortality, but how many fish actually die from disease above that is an unknown….but because typical fish all travel through contaminated central systems, the incidence of disease is going be be similar for all fish passing through those systems, regardless of source.
Jay
 

Jay Hemdal

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So essentially, a higher success rate starts with being more informed consumers — more aware of where we purchase fish/where the fish we purchase are coming from?
More informed consumers, but also those informed consumers making more conservative choices. Case in point would be a hobbyist who knows that blue belly regal angels often don't eat, and yellow belly ones fare just a bit better - but they decide they are the one who will be successful and so they buy a blue belly one.....and it starves to death.

Here are things people need to know:

* Husbandry information about the fish
* Country of origin
* Is it eating in captivity?
* Judge its overall demeanor in the dealer's tank
* Be willing to walk away if everything doesn't line up

Jay
 

Jay Hemdal

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Based.

Jay you are one of the few "experts" I actually respect, because you provide honest and respectful responses, and real information. I wish I had a tenth of your levelheadness.

I would like to ask you some questions. I would like to be blunt (not rude that is not my intent) and I hope that it won't be taken wrong.

Ok here goes.

Do you have a home aquarium? I know it is very difficult to have go to work and then come home and be reminded of work. Further ... have you had home tanks in the past and for how long? I am asking because I think that your perspective is that of someone who deals with things commercially. You have to be aware of this fact. When you provide advice do you compensate for what they face vs. what you face? How?

Why do you suggest quarantine to new people (and older reefers I would imagine)? Open ended question.

I am not sure your compensation here if any at all, and I am really not interested in that part of it. What I am curiuos about is why you provide help to new people with diseases? When I worked in fish stores it was just miserable to deal with people and they would never really learn. Fortunately the cost drove them out, but for me I couldn't take it. I have aquired enough business acumen to do another store (but we both know that would preclude me from doing it ;) ) but I would never. The amount of people that just don't care is astounding. How do you do it?

Ok, don't want to torture you too much. :)

Thanks in advance for the response.

Interesting questions.

I had tons of aquariums growing up and then out of college. When I started working for public aquariums, I went 20 years with no home "hobby" aquarium, just those at work. Around 2007, I did set up a dozen or so micro aquariums at home as research/photographs for my "Mini Aquariums" book, but I dismantled all of them when I finished writing that. I set up a 16 gallon AIO in my home office a couple of years ago.

I suggest quarantine for everyone putting multiple fish in a DT - and then give them the best tools I can. Newbies actually benefit from this the most - old reefers have learned ways around quarantine, or they have an inherent ability to select good quality fish (that is perhaps why they are "old reefers" - the people who kept buying bad fish over and over drop out of the hobby.

Why am I here? I have a long history of answering fish disease issues online. I was a Sysop on Compuserve's FISHNET back in the mid-1980's. I remember paying $18/hour plus long distance phone service for that distinction (but I did get free Compuserve time). I was then active on another (unnamed) reef web site, but the politics there drove me away (well, I got banned), and I was essentially offline from 2010 until 2020 (I did write articles for some online sites like reefs.org). Now - I'm retired and finishing up my disease book. My long hiatus from the hobby side of things indicated that I needed to get back into the trenches to be better able to add finishing touches to the book - so here I am! I've found the people here of Reef2Reef a lot nicer and more mellow than on those other two sites.

Jay
 
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