IS IT TRUE THAT 80% OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE FISH LOSSES DUE TO DISEASE/PARASITES IN FIRST 8 MONTHS IF DONT QUARANTINE ?
- Thread starter ying yang
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Big Smelly fish
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
I remember when he did his original post on the tank year’s ago, I think it was 30 years old at the time and I have always followed the thread. Not here but on a different forum. I still do.
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
Because you are so delusional and arrogant you only see what you want to see. I have been watching his threads I have his book, and I was never confused about what he is advocating.
You only see what you want to see, and you have tried to simplify a very complex hobby into a series of rules. You will always fail with that thinking and that is why everyone is pointing out that you don't have fish. Honestly I don't even know if you have tank because you have no build thread. Unless of course you would like to post current shots for posterity.
The 3rd grader struggles to read the book that the college graduate finds to be too simple.
What is your obsession with "teaching" and students. Are you a teacher?
Before it was on the right track now it is a total joke ... which is it. Seems to me like you think that you are the arbiter of what is right and wrong. I pray no one ever gives you any form of power.
You don't even know that you are just re-hashing the past. SMDH
i cant think
Wrasse Addict
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Article Contributor
UK Reef Club Member
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
My Tank Thread
My Aquarium Showcase
This is the same for me, I don’t lose my fish due to illness but more to spikes (That is when I have any death). I think the other thing is, How much stress did that fish go through before it got established into the aquarium completely. I try minimalise this by floating the fish in the bag where the other guys can see it (I call it float and drop).
i cant think
Wrasse Addict
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Article Contributor
UK Reef Club Member
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
My Tank Thread
My Aquarium Showcase
Totally! I add mine either a few hours before lights out or introduce them straight into a rock that no other fish is near (I did this with my tilefish whilst the other guys were out on the right side of the tank). It’s certainly better and aggression is a huge reason fish can get illnesses.
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
Probably not. I am almost 73 years old and moved to a condo. There is no way I am going to set up a new tank just to see if I can and write about it. I have been writing on these forums and in paper magazines way before most people here were born and I am almost done.
I spread my thoughts thousands of times and my ideas of why all these tanks have diseases.
As I said ad nausium, diseased fish are from tanks not set up or fed properly. I also keep saying new tanks will have problems no matter what. It's just a bacteria thing. It takes time and during that time, don't add expensive fish because they will probably die.
We as humans have this propensity to want a quick fix so we will add all sorts of medications, UV lights, garlic etc. in the hope to cure everything even though it is a natural process.
I even wrote numerous times how I would set up a new tank today. Maybe even in this thread. Why would I do it again?
OMG, I am now putting up my Christmas lights as my fish quietly watch me because they don't want to get me mad. :mad:
OP
OP
ying yang
2500 Club Member
The other thread took 2 days to get 1 person to reply and it had 6 other people reply and 5 of them already replied in this thread and as far as I'm aware only reply that thread to ask or get Jay's opinion on it or something so was vastly different from this thread yes as didnt have you enter thread at post 58 after thread was going very smoothly and everyone being very polite then you start calling everyone a liar if say don't have fish deaths to diesese,could only give advice if owned a reef tank longer than others been alive ( so as most
IS IT TRUE THAT 80% OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE FISH LOSSES DUE TO DIESESE/PARASITES IN FIRST 8 MONTHS IF DONT QUARANTINE ?
Hi all,hope all is well. Just realised this is extremely long post so if want to skimm over it and just say if qt or not and have you lost fish in first 8 months or not to diesese/parasites feel free I'm seeing over and over that if dont quarantine fishes and when buy cuc/inverts or add...www.reef2reef.com
look how vastly different this same thread and dissenting behavior was when placed in the disease forum
Jay arrived at a lesser % risk, and it didn’t take ten pages of insults and asking me about my pico reef while posting fifteen pics of his home reefs to arrive there. Jay spoke, readers took notes, and didn’t rise up in unison against quarantine for fourteen pages.
in the end the recommend to initiate quarantine won, simple as that.
It’s amazing the same thread simply cut and pasted in two different forums got polar opposite outcomes and recommends. fish that are destined for mixed species displays are directly advised to quarantine.
from the thread in the disease forum:
”If I made a guess - a person buying pet store grade, SE Asian fish at a local "regular" pet store and not quarantining, is going to see about 80% mortality in a year: the 15% baseline, plus 40% inherent losses due to poor quality fish, leaving 25% loss from uncontrolled disease (which may include older fish exposed to sick fish).”
People quit hobby after 1- 2 years I think it is then number who you allow to give advice be so very few) ,dis-counted anyone who didn't have a work thread as experiences in our own tanks don't count,being rude/ nasty to others if dont agree with your statement or your opinion/ views,stating thread must be in different forum because opinions be different ( yeah 1 persons Jay's was) then pages and pages I think caused thread to be de- railed maybe in hopes if anyone reading it will stop reading it and skip to the end and just before the end you could say hey let's not argue and try help the new comer and make this thread worthwhile then you try have last words in thread saying " in the end the recommend to initiate quarantine won, simple as that" which the vast majority in this thread probably 8- 9 people out of 10 say didnt qt and didn't have fish losses to diesese/parasites so doubt with them stats the outcome all these 8- 9 people would say " we must all qt because we don't lose fishes if dont qt"
And just re- read the 6 people's replys on just 2 pages and ovbiously Jay recommends to qt but the other 5 people didn't recommend to qt,they was just asking Jay what he said in his reply ( which was first and took 2 days) or asked him what % of new fish would die to dieseses and he " guessed would be 25" which would include old fishes that could of caught the diesese from the new fish ( I guess because immunity low ) so maybe that 25% can go down to 20% would die if dont qt then that's 75% less guess than your statement of 80% of fish will die to diesese/ parasites if dont qt .
And again I'm not against qt I have qt tank running 24/ 7 and can see up 3 foot tank at moments notice and medicate all my fish at once using internal sponge filter in my sump so brandon to say qt fish won its simple as that is just plain false and we not playing no game here,it's animals life's so shouldn't be a winner or loser at all and 100% shouldn't be tey to force our own opinion/ views/ ways onto others and be nasty/rude if others don't agree and then even though everything in black and white just write something different than what the majority said,its very strange behaviour indeed.
Your entitled to your opinion/ views whether they right or wrong but imo shouldn't trying to be force others to do something so the ways you want it doing ,and btw what you wanting to achieve I actually admire and believe its to have as least fish loss as possible as I believe this is what we all want ,its just the way you try do it that imo is totally wrong with fabricating stuff and saying untrues but hope you had a good day so far brandon ^_^
And once again thankyou everyone for taking time to reply to my question and hope you enjoy rest of your day/ night
Current Quarantine Protocol
2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...
www.reef2reef.com
Jay's current diesese protocol 2021 if anyone wants to do qt like jay recommends and Jay very experienced and worked with fish for long time now and believe works for a public aquarium
Plus others who may find it interesting.
And others who don't want to qt there lots threads on methods/ ways others suggest to do it,and imo ( only new at 9 months if not said enough already lol) I believe must provide fish more comfortable/ less stressful tank as possible with cut throughs/ caves/overhangs_)/let fish lose sight with each other and us/feed well/compatible tank mates and tank size and pick healthy looking fish in first place plus much more goes into having a tank with more chances for success and have a plan and to best of your ability stick to it
Last edited:
My comment was made with a neural and friendly tone. Basically seeing he had a bad experience and formed his opinion through his experience. As we all do. Lighthearted comment only. And yes, we enjoyed a big dinner with family. I browsed the site in my down time. Sounds like you enjoyed your day as well. happy Thanksgiving! Cheers!!OMG, did anyone here sit down and spend a day with your families on Thanksgiving or were you on here yelling at each other?
I had a great dinner with family, Grand Kids etc. and my computer was 100 miles away, unplugged, dark and quiet.
My fish were also quiet I assume because I didn't see them or feed them. (I will give them some turkey today)
I personally do not go by Brandons advice because I have been doing this long enough to make my own mistakes. But I never admonish Brandon for his advice. It is his opinion.
He quite often tells people that I cause many people's tanks to crash with my advice. Thats fine and he could also say I am senile and bald, but it wouldn't bother me.
I am a big boy and that stuff just bounces off my bald head. I am sure Brandon is just trying to help people.
I try to give my advice and hope people don't just takes part of it like "don't quarantine" and feel that is the secret. It is not.
I did work some Victoria Secret photo shoots but never learned their secret.
These "methods" including mine and maybe Brandons involve much more than just quarantining or offering up tea leaves to the moon.
I am against quarantining and medication 90% of the time, but that other 10% is important. Some tanks owned by some people need quarantining and meds.
IMO quarantining is just one factor but it goes along with so many other things that we take for granted. A fish in a bare container will become sick even if you give him the three Covid shots with the booster.
Fish are not like dogs. Dogs have a little more smarts, fish are stupid and run by instinct.
A dog also has a much different immune system as it is warm blooded like most of us are.
If we give a fish the proper living conditions and food, in most cases it will be fine as disease doesn't bother fish until we get involved.
Our job is to keep that fish in the state of health it was in in the sea when it was immune and healthy.
"We" make the fish sick. This hobby has been here since 1970 and we still have as many sick fish as we had since then. We have more medications and quarantine procedures which unfortunately, make fish sicker.
Many of us still can't grasp the fact that fish need the same conditions or at least mindset they had in the sea. Most of that is a secure living place where they can't see us and food with living bacteria in it which 100% controls their immunity and health.
The invention of PVC elbows really killed many fish.
Have a great day after Thanksgiving and give your fish some stuffing.
i cant think
Wrasse Addict
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Article Contributor
UK Reef Club Member
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
My Tank Thread
My Aquarium Showcase
I’ve just realised there’s like 3-4 pages of arguing, that really does show how much QT is a debated topic haha. If I ever got a more sensitive fish (Anampses femininus or Acanthurus achilles) I probably would but it QTed already and then focus my tank around it. I think the most things that cause disease/illness in fish are:
- Aggression,
- Collection methods,
- Age.
I find those three are the most important to focus on, if you get a fish that’s too small then it’s probably too hard to keep eating but if it’s too big then it’s probably too hard to ween or keep parasite free. I find this to be the reason why most Achilles tangs are brought into captivity at around 3-4 inch, they’re not too small to have to try ween onto frozen but also aren’t too big to the point they’re already used to their wild habits. I know I use the Achilles as an example a lot but it’s only because that’s the most sensitive fish I have got the most information on.
- Aggression,
- Collection methods,
- Age.
I find those three are the most important to focus on, if you get a fish that’s too small then it’s probably too hard to keep eating but if it’s too big then it’s probably too hard to ween or keep parasite free. I find this to be the reason why most Achilles tangs are brought into captivity at around 3-4 inch, they’re not too small to have to try ween onto frozen but also aren’t too big to the point they’re already used to their wild habits. I know I use the Achilles as an example a lot but it’s only because that’s the most sensitive fish I have got the most information on.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2016
- Messages
- 22,829
- Reaction score
- 21,964
Jay is a respected professional in marine biology and fish disease. He made 'a guess'. And He can reply here too if he wants but @Jay Hemdal I believe may be correct he may be wrong. BUT - when he made the statement (paraphrased) - 'if I had to guess' - or 'this is a guess' - that suggests he knows he might be wrong. There will be very little push-back (and rightly so) to a guess.
That is why there was very little push back. In fact, when I think about it - I disagree with Jay for a couple reasons:
1. Because he didn't define what 'QT is'. - Is it observation, is it meds all the time, is it multiple meds, is it using PVC pipe (some people do not like that), etc etc. ?
2. Is part of 'QT' - making sure tank mates are compatible healthy as possible when added eating well? Collected properly without Toxins, etc?
3. Is part of 'QT' matching as close as possible parameters - salinity, temp, etc.?
In other words - if 'QT' is missing any or all of these things (except possibly medication related - which I am not sure I totally believe in) - I believe 80% might very well be a 'correct guess'. However, I do not think most of that 80% would be due to disease, unless it was disease caused in part by another breakdown in 'the health of the fish - which then led to a fatal diseae'
What is a 'noob tank?' - a term which I continue to find somewhat offensive. If I buy (after 10 years) - an angelfish for the first time - am I a 'noob' - to a certain degreee, yes. If I start an algae turf scrubber - or the triton method, or whatever - and I a 'noob' - to a certain degree, yes.
But - here is a point to ponder. IMHO - a person stops being a 'noob' - when they start to realize that everything they decide to change (I'm changing salt today, I'm buying a new sump, I'm buying xyz controller, I'm buying a calcium reactor) - even though their tank is doing well kind of re-returns them to being a 'noob'.
IMHO - many if not most of the posts resulting n 'fish death and disease' start with 'I did XXXX. - and all the sudden YYYY coral and fish died. What should I do? People that have been doing this for a long time (I guess if I add my freshwater tanks and cichlid breading business started as a child) I have about 50 years of combined reef and marine experience. I can trace nearly all of my disasters to 1. equipment failure. 2. Power failure. 3. Overstocking (and continuing to add/change livestock). 4. Buying cheap, sick, corals an fish. 5. Jumping (lid failure). Very little is due again IMHO - to QT or no QT. OR the length of a tanks existence.
JMHO
@Paul B - though we have sparred about 'theory' and 'science' (i.e. some of the reasons behind your success, IMHO - anyone using your techniques can be successful from day 1 (i.e. you do not need a 5 year old tank to have a long reefing career).
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Messages
- 8,352
- Reaction score
- 45,563
Welp my 2 cents...
I am 11 months into my 130 gallon. I have 5 fish which I did not QT. I got ich with my last addition and just changed their diet to store bought, DIY foods, shrimp, clams and scallops. The ich went away and has been gone or undetectable for the last 4 or 5 months.
My choice was pull and QT in copper or feed live foods in order to strengthen immunity. I chose the latter.
I would QT if I had thousands of dollars of fish invested in my DT, why take a chance with new additios. But this worked for me with no losses.
I can't tell people not to QT or to QT.
You do what you feel is right and make adjustments as you go based on your experience. Expect some losses along the way.
I am 11 months into my 130 gallon. I have 5 fish which I did not QT. I got ich with my last addition and just changed their diet to store bought, DIY foods, shrimp, clams and scallops. The ich went away and has been gone or undetectable for the last 4 or 5 months.
My choice was pull and QT in copper or feed live foods in order to strengthen immunity. I chose the latter.
I would QT if I had thousands of dollars of fish invested in my DT, why take a chance with new additios. But this worked for me with no losses.
I can't tell people not to QT or to QT.
You do what you feel is right and make adjustments as you go based on your experience. Expect some losses along the way.
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Messages
- 8,352
- Reaction score
- 45,563
I cycled the tank with a purple tang 4" and a yellow tang 3.5", some people thought I was nuts for doing that.
I then bought a flame angel and an algae blenny.
My last addition was a mandarin goby.
I really can't say where the ich came from, but I haven't had an outbreak since I changed how I fed them.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2016
- Messages
- 22,829
- Reaction score
- 21,964
The reason I asked (and of course it would be difficult to do (EDIT: An experiment) without a lot of money lol) - was for a 130 gallon tank - that is a relatively low stocking density. Thus it could be that the CI merely would have died off - due to immunity - no matter which food you used - but its great that they all made it!!
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Messages
- 8,352
- Reaction score
- 45,563
I'll take it, I would rather be lucky than good if it saves my fish lol
Jay Hemdal
10K Club member
Staff member
Forum Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
Fish Medic
Just to clarify - when I say "quarantine" I mean the method I use. I'm not saying it is the best or only method, but it is the one I use, and therefore I have more data about its efficacy.
Jay
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2016
- Messages
- 22,829
- Reaction score
- 21,964
Thanks - I thought so - but just wanted to clarify. Although I know you don't have a 'study' - just to clarify - assuming 80 percent mortality in the first year. What do you think the cause(s) are? The only reason I ask is (rightly or wrongly) - only a small percentage follow a 'Medicated' QT system - at least according to polls here. I just find it difficult to believe that (Lets say 30 percent follow a medicated protocol) - that the other 70 percent of people have an 80 percent mortality of their fish? But - again - the discussion has been a little convoluted - so it's unclear what you were trying to say (to me) - Thanks in advance
Similar threads
New Posts
-
DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems
- Latest: malcolmyoung
-
