IS IT TRUE THAT 80% OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE FISH LOSSES DUE TO DISEASE/PARASITES IN FIRST 8 MONTHS IF DONT QUARANTINE ?

[LiamPM]

Nice back step. Since you didn’t come to illuminate on best practices for new tankers aren’t we done? You popped in, added to flame, no new tanker can use your posts to learn best practices for disease control, not even if they read your post history, you didn’t add anything useful we can relay to others. How about move on?

by never making threads that advise a procedure or warn of a % risk you have no tests underway, no accountability for claims at all, that’s a very safe mode to make proof posts from.


here’s the opposite

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

non digital ammonia test kit readings (api, Red Sea, nyos, seachem badges) make you think you aren’t cycled when indeed you are if you owned a $200 expensive seneye meter, you’d never be doubting your cycle status. since .01% of the reefing population owns these, we need a way to help the...

www.reef2reef.com

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

New dry sand right from bag and into bucket of water. so glad I rinsed the sand before putting into the tank!! Took 2 hrs to rinse out to mosty clear. see the tag? Pre-washed and minimum rinse required!!!? Lol

www.reef2reef.com

thats being accountable for a clear stance. Try it sometime, it can be scary to post specifics and then have others feedback on them live time. The follow up inspections and chats I gain from sticking my neck out for a clear test and specific timing assigned in others reefs lead me to the 80% I advised that Ying Yang found so easily debatable


my advice comes from working solely in others tanks, thats a foreign concept to you and I can see why. Your summary of my input does not match testimony from any page on those threads.

I do work, accountable specific work, in others tanks and nothing in these last six pages is swaying my 80% risk advice. I’m being evaluated by folks who reef comfortably at home and if they kill fish by skipping disease preps we won’t know it, no third parties are present to back up their claims.

Oh i did illuminate on best practices a few posts up Brandon - The "illumination" was to avoid your drivvle. Fish will survive longer wihtout your input for sure.

OH you edited that for more drivvle - Claiming things you have no means to claim like you know people outside of a few posts on a public board. Its clear for anyone to see just from reading the few pointless, unhelpful messages you have wasted time typing on this very thread, let alone others.

Working in other tanks - or was that a twist on "posting on other peoples threads".

Your embarassing and yes, i am now out - Much like the hundreds of others that have you on block. I wonder why thats so common......

 

[SebM]

Try to imagine a scenario in which I repeatedly mention the issue is one where the debate is how we instruct new tankers to proceed, and then from the woodwork we get solely reports on what folks do at their homes, who are never tasked with working to produce working reefs for other newbs using links we get to track out for the outcome

we get only perfect reports about someone’s home reef where only they provide perfect outcome feedback in the matter

imagine never having to have others rate a system we gave advice to, all outcome reports are by us from our own tanks, we solely report our own tanks and backpat each other for methods 100% opposite of the disease forum and it’s stickies.


imagine every post here seeming totally opposite of the daily needs and tasks from the disease forum and when I click on the disease forum, none of the pros posting here are doing any help work there, with all these self testimonies

reporting from the safe zone, check.


that’d be a frustrating thing to imagine right


let me guess, in all these no qt homes you can buy puppies, skip parvo vax toss em in the back yard and they grow up best in show each generation. Flowers you keep don’t wilt is that the case too


team

when someone produces a recently cycled dry start bottle bac reef, how should they proceed to stock it with fish? Change perspective from me to they for a sec, imagine you’re advising new tanks in lots of 20 for best practices that don’t waste fish. Post on that advice a few pages pls


this thread exists for one reason: right when I’m advising someone not to add six mixed fish to their new tank YingYang wants to tell them there are other options which allow it, I tell the posters you have an 80% chance of loss within eight months if you do, and then YY goes and makes validation reports in all caps in all places other than the disease forum. Watch the advice new tankers get from YY, it’ll be a wish wash of telling them to do what they think is best, as new reefers with no practice, amid a very light recommend to maybe qt if they feel ok about it.

the race is me trying to temper new tankers and you guys telling them to fill ‘er up, if the fish die just buy more.


one click takes us to the disease forum and nothing, nothing you guys paint is going on there and you’re not tasked with helping anyone either. Reports from the safe zone.

Whatever you have said doesn't apply to me. Yes, I have had fish for 20 year but my last marine tank was 4 years ago. I'm not an expert in marines, in fact I'd consider myself a newbie.

I actually read many of your threads about cycling with Carbisea live sand, life rock and Dr Tim's + ammonia just while I was setting up my latest tank.

I have enough experience from freshwater tanks that I know how many fish I can add and when. Once my ammonia was zero I added two clowns. I left two weeks and added some hardy corals. I left another two weeks and added two fire fish.

No QT. Corals dipped of course. Everything is doing brilliantly. My water parameters couldn't be better if I tried.

I will continue to add the fish on my list without QT, with sufficient time in between each lot.

I respect my fish just as I love and respect my dogs. Your comparison of dog vaccinations is insane. If there were a vaccination for fish and it were as readily available then I would vax my fish. There isn't. Quarantine them and putting them through hell by adding countless of preemptive medication and concoctions in an unsuitable QT does nothing but stresses the fish.

I'll see it again, I have never in 20 years of keeping fish lost to disease. While much of that is freshwater experience, you surely know that disease is far more prevalent in freshwater aquatics than it is in marines.

You will never keep latent/dormant pathogens out of your tank. Almost every fish carries some latent/dormant pathogens and I don't believe any medication claims 100% success of removing them. Even if you were to manage it, are you prepared to never use live food or frozen live food? Guess what, there are countless cases of live food being full of velvet tomites.

If we want to discuss advice to newbies maybe we should look into the complete nonsense of bleaching rocks, tanks and equipment because a couple of new Chromis died of uronema, a disease which barely affects any other fish and most definitely does not make healthy fish in pristine water conditions sick. No stress = no uronema.

I would actually bet you that if 100 home marine tanks are sampled, 90 of them will have latent uronema. 80 will never experience a breakout.

 

[ying yang]

I lost fish in my first 8 months, but due to lack of knowledge and care, not disease. And I believe that statement is mixing all cause together to inflate the numbers. My tanks is about 10 years old and didnt have any disease since a small ich issue with no death about 8 years ago. no QT for me.

Seems like most are similar to yourself or not lost any fish at all,or had small outbreak but had no loss like yourself.

I really wish I put some kind of voting system into the begginning of thread if lost fish or not and at how many months so could just look te

 

[SebM]

What would be more helpful is if you linked a thread where for two years new tankers tested that advice and we could read their evals.


prediction: by page ten here we get no such work thread and the recommend based on what able reefers did in one tank in their homes continues. I think you guys omit the truth to make your attempts look better, disease killed your initial fish that’s just the rosy summary to stay in step with this crowd. If you make a clear stance on something, anything, and make a work thread and let others post their evals- I’ll be amazed lets see just one example from anyone here on the seven pages for something we prescribed to others that got measured. This concept makes no sense to you all I can see it plain as day.

No. I have never lost a fish to disease.

I'll give you a great example. In my previous marine tank I initially had two clowns (standard starter fish), added a regal tang. The regal tang, like so many of them, developed ich within the first few days. He was stressed because the LFS had kept him in a huge coral tank and it was his home. The ich disappeared after 4 days because my water was pristine, the tank was a great environment for the tang, there was an extremely low bioload and I fed high quality food.

More fish were added over the coming months and after we had everything we wanted about 6 months later we felt like we were missing something with a lot of movement. We ended up buying 13 Chromis. 4(!) had uronema signs the next day, by the evening they were dead and another 7 had visible uronema. 2 of those survived, 5 died.

3 days later we had 4 healthy Chromis and they lived until we stupidly added a cow fish 3 years later.

No fish in the tank ever got sick with either uronema or ich despite both having got into the tank. Even the tang never got ich again.

Would QT have saved any of the Chromis? No.
Would more have died if I QT them? Pretty likely because no QT tank is ever as suitable as your DT.
Would my tang have died in QT? Pretty likely because no QT tank is ever as suitable as your DT.
Would panic, leading to medicating the tang have changed anything? I think it would have died.

 

[Scotty8284]

I recently hit the one year anniversary of my return to the hobby. I live in a condo, so space is always a consideration, and a QT tank was not viable. The fish I purchased at the LFS’s were kept in copper treated tanks, and because they listed arrival dates, I knew they had been in those tanks 4+ weeks. Everything was going well. UNTIL…… A new shipment arrived at one of the stores, and rather than waiting, I purchased some fish that did not go through the protocols that were typical. Can you say “velvet”? It wiped out my whole tank! No ont to blame but myself, since I abandoned the rules I had established for myself. Now I am in restocking mode, and I’ve imposed more stringent rules. Now I am only buying from vendors who sell quarantined fish. And NO IMPULSIVE BUYING!!! So far, so good. Anecdotally, the fish I’ve received so far seem much more robust, and we’ll suited to tank life. Even the sand-sifting gobies take food directly from my “turkey baster” when I feed, so concerns I had about their nutritional needs being met were quickly put to rest.

 

[brandon429]

Seb thank you for responding in a decent dissenting manner. It’s that discourse that builds science


@Scotty8284 if I’m ever fishing and see you treading out in the center of the lake no boat around because it unanchored and drifted off while you were swimming, I promise to throw you a lifeline man. your words reflect the world I’m from.

I truly think you might have observational skills @SebM and reaction skills above the par I can expect when dealing with twenty new tankers from the ‘verse. You paint at home really well agreed.


if you were to summarize your best practices, with the rates of new help posts coming today new in the disease forum which are opposite and also did skip qt, what’s the summary I can take back and apply here:

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

Team, @KirbyM just provided us with valuable update information several days after bioload entry, and feeding. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/suspected-stalled-cycle-verify-my-test-results-please.867054/page-2#post-9499840 In every way that's a wanted example of applying and testing...

www.reef2reef.com

see how that’s tons of brand new reefs who want clear direction, and a stance on aspects of cycling? That’s a dangerous thread to make. run bad science there and eighty people will drum you out of town for actually killing their reefs, not just for merely making a disease prep recommend warning so well-received here.
I tell them to run Jays method, and that if they run you guys’ method they’ll lose fish quickly 80% of the time because methods here as reported don’t transfer outbound well 80% of the time.







please tell me a concise approach we should advise new dry rock cyclers to use.

team,

before you guys pitchfork me all full of holes hoping mods will compress me before I can respond, how about this temperature change:

my prediction based on ten threads like that above is a simply 80% likelihood you waste fish in eight months unnecessarily by skipping disease preps in the beginning display


from here on out no personal insults, keep it ratios


I said 80%


you all respond with what you think is correct percentage risk if ten new tankers make a dry rock cycle and mix it up with pet store fish (newbs don’t trace out a supply chain @DrZoidburg they buy what’s on display, and agreed that was a good call you made they should buy from reputable sources that was a really helpful post)


I think from the perspective of this crowd, a new tanker risks disease outbreak 4% if they skip preps. Future responses follow that prediction set please, also include a snippet of what you think new tankers should do at all to prep for disease. In all these posts it seems they should just add the fish into the display

 

[HuduVudu]

and then from the woodwork we get solely reports on what folks do at their homes,

Ummmm what else would people report on? 99.9% of people have HOME aquariums. They don't have jobs of this, and as a person that has had multple jobs in this hobby, I can say bringing work home gets old and you are VERY unlikely to do it.

who are never tasked with working to produce working reefs for other newbs using links we get to track out for the outcome

Who is tasking them? Do the people getting tasked get anything for it? When it was my job to help people most people that I tried to help just say your getting paid for it. When I tried to help without it being my job most people say you don't know what you are talking about.

we get only perfect reports about someone’s home reef where only they provide perfect outcome feedback in the matter

If you even bothered to read my build thread you would see that I had a lost. You would also see me trying to figure out what caused it. People have loss for sure, but with the nature of social media (and crowds in general) they are reluctant to share because someone is going to come along and tear them apart for not having done ... whatever ... you learn very quickly to keep the dirty laundry out of the public eye.

If you get to know people you find very quickly that they are willing to air their dirty laundry because they want others to not have to go through what they did and they are hoping that you can learn from their mistakes.

People have reasons for what they do. They are for them and they have a reason.

imagine never having to have others rate a system we gave advice to,

People rate my system all the time. If that were to be quantified as a star system with 5 being the best then people rate my system as .1 stars.

But every day I get up and I see my corals I see my fish and I live with the the advice that I give myself. No one gives two @*$#@*($ about my system. Honestly this is how it should be. People are going to take ideas that make sense to them, and they very very very rarely take the whole idea.

we solely report our own tanks and backpat each other for methods 100% opposite of the disease forum and it’s stickies.

I don't think that people that don't QT backpat themselves, because it hurts enough getting punched all of the time.

imagine every post here seeming totally opposite of the daily needs and tasks from the disease forum

My tank is successful, unlike the people on the disease forum. Of course my posts will be opposite of those "needs". You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink.

when I click on the disease forum, none of the pros posting here are doing any help work there, with all these self testimonies

Because unless they are Superman or paid why put up with it. The same thing happens when you work in a store. People don't think you know what you are doing. The difference is that on social media they tell you so. It gets old and even if you where paid it needs to be a hefty price.

Also people that are novice have a hard time understanding that there can be more than one successful way and will attack others that are novice or above because they can't personally concieve that there can be other approaches that work.

reporting from the safe zone, check.

Who wants to live in a war zone?

let me guess, in all these no qt homes you can buy puppies, skip parvo vax toss em in the back yard and they grow up best in show each generation.

This is your assumption. EVERY SINGLE SUCCESSFUL non-QTer has a process that they follow that allows them to suceed.

when someone produces a recently cycled dry start bottle bac reef, how should they proceed to stock it with fish?

They shouldn't, but you can very very very rarely convince a newb of this fact.

Change perspective from me to they for a sec, imagine you’re advising new tanks in lots of 20 for best practices that don’t waste fish. Post on that advice a few pages pls

I have done that off and on for most of my adult life. Newbs gonna newb.

this thread exists for one reason: right when I’m advising someone not to add six mixed fish to their new tank YingYang wants to tell them there are other options which allow it, I tell the posters you have an 80% chance of loss within eight months if you do, and then YY goes and makes validation reports in all caps in all places other than the disease forum. Watch the advice new tankers get from YY, it’ll be a wish wash of telling them to do what they think is best, as new reefers with no practice, amid a very light recommend to maybe qt if they feel ok about it.

@ying yang was curious about something. He posted. Their were responses. You didn't like the responses and now you are here.

the race is me trying to temper new tankers and you guys telling them to fill ‘er up, if the fish die just buy more.

Almost 40 years I have seen this. If the fish are cheap this will be the case. The fish we so love and find attractive are just wasted food.

In China they eat dogs.

 

[HuduVudu]

Why won’t you answer the simple question I repeat ask about what’s the best advice for new reefers? Because you don’t advise any in pattern, aren’t accountable for anything, and are part of the groupthink flow here. We wouldn’t have known he’s an ardent quarantiner in a new reef without some leveling info. Let me check your motivation, one sec brb. I want to see if you advocate disease control in new tanks or not, we cant discern that from the pile on post above.

The best advice is the advice that they don't like ... my gawd man how hard is it to understand ... have a plan. If you don't have a plan then the fish, coral etc ... are likely to die because you don't know what to do when the inevitbale happens.

They are then mad because they are made to pay for their mistake. Actions have consequences whether we like it or not.

By the time the newb gets here to post, most of their options have already run out. The problem is that they don't have the skill to know that. Then instead of taking the pain of the loss they project outward in their frustration. I have been guilty of this on more than one occasion. This is the nature of the beast ... deal with it.

 

[HuduVudu]

You should take a break from joining into threads with destructive input

You should take a break on telling others what they should or shouldn't do.

I still cannot get from anything you’ve posted to the site what your advice to new tankers fresh off a bottle bac cycle would be, mind inputting that info? I

You block the people that can and would help and then you pick on others that might not be as secure in their skills. This is not the mark of a confident person.

 

[brandon429]

The best advice is the advice that they don't like ... my gawd man how hard is it to understand ... have a plan. If you don't have a plan then the fish, coral etc ... are likely to die because you don't know what to do when the inevitbale happens.

why type all the rest? Isn’t it easy to just be concise and link a thread where you’ve been testing any aspect of an observation you made?


the way you write reveals your motivation for posting here, you can stay on block. None of that elevated the discussion, and in clicking your history you just went another year testing nothing, forwarding no science, merely taking from the hobby on the coattails of those who did.

I see nothing invented, prognosticated or tested in your post history and your reef looks like the others with zero deviation from how your peers told you to set it up, you know this won’t catch my eye man.

 

[BVF]

No, only 50%. The other 65% are untruths.

You’re 115% correct!

 

[HuduVudu]

why type all the rest? Isn’t it easy to just be concise and link a thread where you’ve been testing any aspect of an observation you made?

Because getting ripped apart is not my idea of fun.

Soda poppin' ... and how to dose infinite Kalk

Ok, how I arrived at this crazy simple stupid idea was kinda like this: It started a long time ago when wet dry filters were still dominant and only the cool kids built Berlins. I had gotten back into the hobby after being in the Philippines and I was absolutetly enamored with live coral, I...

www.reef2reef.com

I have made many many discoveries. I will not post them, because there is always someone like you out there. People don't want what I have. This is a bitter pill to swallow but it is reality.

None of that elevated the discussion, and in clicking your history you just went another year testing nothing, forwarding no science, merely taking from the hobby on the coattails of those who did.

The "elevated" discussion is the point. It is the concept, the approach that brings the options in times of trouble. People don't like my science. They don't care about my solutions. If they did they would ask me and I would offer. That doesn't happen here or in the hobby as a whole that is the way it is.

You are projecting. As a person that has no aquarium, you have nothing to offer. You will not bring new ideas into this hobby you will regurgitate the same ones that have been around for years. What your offering is the same thing that was offered in the 70's you just don't have enough introspection to know that.

You are not the be all end all of the hobby and conversations like this are why most people shy away from every bothering to provide their input.

 

[brandon429]

Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

Like the title states are you for or against QT procedures on new fish?

www.reef2reef.com

see how that thread is going down fully opposite here, you listen to what the Dr. says vs sound smart when challenging it? See how simple correction is managing that thread direction, no flames, no groupthink just the best science of the day?

let’s see where this thread goes in comparison. Dont act Hudu like you have a history of study in the matter of disease prevention or valid input for new hires. Heck its likely if I dig deep enough youd be found recommending it or practicing it on the downlow like Brian Spilner

 

[ying yang]

@HuduVudu only just seen part about brandon saying ying yang puts in all capitals just now and I say to noobs there is another way and whatever else brandon said just now when you tag me.

Just for the record again.
I dont say to anyone that you shouldn't qt or not qt.
I say do your research on the various ways you can start a tank and add fish and then went to say how I set up my tank with making tank more comfortable for the fish as its my tank but the fishes home so imo its best to make less stressful and have rockwork with over hangs ,cut throughs,places where fish can lose sight if each other and me,lots flow,lots of gas exchange ,feed well plus lots of other stuff.
And @brandon429 I copy and paste my first post I this thread word for word and made title same and posted in fish diesese forum last night and as far as I'm aware it got no responses as I thought it would as imo it doesnt matter where I posted the thread,my logical head told me post in fish discussion as we discussing about fish loss or no fish loss and this forum we in now had more posts so again my logical head said post here as its had more foot traffic so to speak so will possibly get bigger audience which it has and am quite surprised about how much interest tbh.but as you have already stated its you who says 80% of people will lose fish by 8 month stage,this question/ thread I started was about that as I thought surely it can't be 80% of people lose fish by 8 months to diesese/parasites and by how many posts from so many people without doing the maths it seems more like 90% people don't lose fish to diesese/ parasites in first 8 months and yeah people can lose fish and lie and say they haven't lost any fish or go buy exact same fish and pretend it's the original fish,but I choose to live my life by thinking a high number of people are honest and won't lie ,as if I kept thinking everyone I talked to was dishonest and a liar,my life and my head would be messed up indeed.
So I choose to give everyone benifit of the doubt and believe they telling me the truth until they prove different..

And again this thread wasn't started for me to give anyone any advice on qt or not to qt,it was a question as seen so many times 80% people lose fish to diesese/ parasites in first 8 months if dont qt and we as hobbiest are killing a huge number of fish and need to tell noobs to qt fish to stop these huge fish deaths so started a thread to get everyone's answer on if the did lose fish or didnt .
I tried to stay nuetral to best of my ability and even mentioned Jay's current diesese protocal and humble fish as them both give excellent advice on how to qt.
And also mentioned lots advice/ threads on not qt fish and some of methods what others use in their own tanks .
So unsure how that's me giving advice to noobs and saying dont qt .
I'm baffled by reading huduvudu sharing one of brandons quotes saying what it did about me as its so far from the truth its laughable.
I had a question so asked it and mentioned a few different ways how to get to end goal of having a fish tank we can enjoy and hopefully healthy thriving fish.
But anyway no hard feelings I know what I put, it's in black and white and can't even go back and edit it even if I wanted as can only edit for first hour I believe.
Anyway hope everyone's having a great day ^_^

 

[astiesi]

Wow, I cannot take this thread anymore. It goes from mild amusement to bewilderment at the lack of coherensy to frustration at the thought new reefers may be attempting to read through this.

My one question is how are you cycling 500 tanks this year? Are you personally testing and observing and controlling the variables? This is what it requires to take credit for performing an experiment. Please stop giving new reefers the impression that you are a scientist here. This forum is about sharing experiences and learning from them, maybe helping a few people along the way.

Why do I keep reading this thread...

 

[brandon429]

YingYang I truly think you made this thread not out of sincere interest in science, or learning, but to get the direct outcome you got. My respect for your advice as a reefer is missing now, I think you set back the reefing ability of new hires you give no clear stance lukewarm recommends to. It is pretty much just what I did in my first year of reefing so there’s not total disdain.

astiesi

Im not concerned with proving anything to you, you are here solely from the crowd you aren’t really trying to contribute. Think what you want, I didn’t even try and read your thread history on the site I already know what it will look like. It’ll look like you buying a tank from a pet store and then being an instant pro.

 

[brandon429]

@astiesi lol I really did look it up you ordered the reef and shrimp cycled it then became a critic, my bad


truly nice setup though, solid under tank design the scape looks nice. How did you prep for disease?

 

[ying yang]

YingYang I truly think you made this thread not out of sincere interest in science, or learning, but to get the direct outcome you got. My respect for your advice as a reefer is missing now, I think you set back the reefing ability of new hires you give no clear stance lukewarm recommends to. It is pretty much just what I did in my first year of reefing so there’s not total disdain.

Well I'm no scientist and didn't start this thread in name of science ,it was simply I had a question which have asked many times ( last time in your thread you started) and just wanted to know from whoever took the time to reply .
Your words to me are getting a bit towards the nasty side but that's OK I have thick skin and my advice as a reefer is limited as only had my reef tank up 9 months so any advice that I do give ( and I try to help people best I can in real life and here) but after my advice I mention I'm new to reefing and usually tag someone who I think may have better knowledge than me and be able to help them better,so I know im new to reefing and done lots research but I know still lots to learn and my experience is very limited at only 9 months.
But quite simply I asked a question and the answers I got is just that ,people's own experiences and alot of peoples own experience but hope you brandon are doing well and same to anyone that reads this ^_^

And again to everyone do your research and decide what you can and can't do and what you think the best way forward is and do it to best of your ability but most importantly try to enjoy your reef tank .
Anyway I'm in middle if making a roast dinner so everyone enjoy their day ^_^

 

[HuduVudu]

I thought surely it can't be 80% of people lose fish by 8 months to diesese/parasites and by how many posts from so many people without doing the maths it seems more like 90% people don't lose fish to diesese/ parasites in first 8 months and yeah people can lose fish and lie and say they haven't lost any fish or go buy exact same fish and pretend it's the original fish,but I choose to live my life by thinking a high number of people are honest and won't lie ,as if I kept thinking everyone I talked to was dishonest and a liar,my life and my head would be messed up indeed.
So I choose to give everyone benifit of the doubt and believe they telling me the truth until they prove different..

Based!!

 

[HuduVudu]

Why do I keep reading this thread...

They same reason you look at the guy on the side of the road that went down on his motorcyle and left a long red streak there.