IS IT TRUE THAT 80% OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE FISH LOSSES DUE TO DISEASE/PARASITES IN FIRST 8 MONTHS IF DONT QUARANTINE ?

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks - I thought so - but just wanted to clarify. Although I know you don't have a 'study' - just to clarify - assuming 80 percent mortality in the first year. What do you think the cause(s) are? The only reason I ask is (rightly or wrongly) - only a small percentage follow a 'Medicated' QT system - at least according to polls here. I just find it difficult to believe that (Lets say 30 percent follow a medicated protocol) - that the other 70 percent of people have an 80 percent mortality of their fish? But - again - the discussion has been a little convoluted - so it's unclear what you were trying to say (to me) - Thanks in advance
Oh, and one other assumption I made here - was that the fish were purchased from a Petco sort of run of the mill LFS, and that the fish were classed as "grade B SE Asian". This I DO have good data on - around a 30 to 50% mortality rate on these weak fish within the first 40 days, without factoring in any disease issues. Then, I added the 15% mortality rate I see on post-quarantine fish annually (from 20+ years of tracking that). The guess that I made was to nudge the 45 to 65% baseline rate to 80% by adding in my guess as to how non-quarantined fish would encounter disease and raise the overall mortality rate.

Things that lower the rate: (In no particular order)

buying tank raised fish (reduces disease and cyanide issues)
buying net collected fish with short supply chain (reduces cyanide and handling issues)
Proper quarantine (reduces disease issues)
Shipping losses held at less than 3% by using air cargo and not FedEx
picking appropriate species (no orange spot filefish for example)

Doing all of those items reduces my annual mortality rate on new fishes to around 25 to perhaps 30%


Jay
 
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ying yang

ying yang

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Oh, and one other assumption I made here - was that the fish were purchased from a Petco sort of run of the mill LFS, and that the fish were classed as "grade B SE Asian". This I DO have good data on - around a 30 to 50% mortality rate on these weak fish within the first 40 days, without factoring in any disease issues. Then, I added the 15% mortality rate I see on post-quarantine fish annually (from 20+ years of tracking that). The guess that I made was to nudge the 45 to 65% baseline rate to 80% by adding in my guess as to how non-quarantined fish would encounter disease and raise the overall mortality rate.

Things that lower the rate: (In no particular order)

buying tank raised fish (reduces disease and cyanide issues)
buying net collected fish with short supply chain (reduces cyanide and handling issues)
Proper quarantine (reduces disease issues)
Shipping losses held at less than 3% by using air cargo and not FedEx
picking appropriate species (no orange spot filefish for example)

Doing all of those items reduces my annual mortality rate on new fishes to around 25 to perhaps 30%


Jay
Alot of good info there so thanks Jay and very interesting indeed.
If I'm reading it correctly even though you medicate qt all your fish ( I guess same way as you describe in your " current diesese protocol" 2021,you still have 25- 30% fish deaths which obviously covers everything like fish died in transit,bullying ,fish died in qt medication,plus Amy other reason,which is still very high figure indeed. I would never of guessed a public aquarium had that much deaths so very interesting indeed.
 

Paul B

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What is a 'noob tank?' - a term which I continue to find somewhat offensive. If I buy (after 10 years) - an angelfish for the first time - am I a 'noob' - to a certain degreee, yes. If I start an algae turf scrubber - or the triton method, or whatever - and I a 'noob' - to a certain degree, yes.
A Noob to me is someone who knows what to do to acclimate a fish, knows what to feed, doesn't have disease problems but if he does, knows what to do about it. Knows what kind of substrait he wants for his (or her) situation.
Knows the lighting he needs.

Knows how to mix water and knows that just about every creature he finds and if it is safe or not.
Knows what water parameters are and how to keep them at the levels he wants.

If a Noob finds that term offensive, they will just have to get over it because there are Noobs in all facets of life, in all jobs and all hobbies just as I was when the hobby started.

They may be called different things, but they are Noobs. When I got drafted I was a Basic Trainee, in my job as an electrician I was an apprentice (and I called them Noobs). New People in West Point are called Plebs. Police Officers are called Trainees.

The guess that I made was to nudge the 45 to 65% baseline rate to 80% by adding in my guess as to how non-quarantined fish would encounter disease and raise the overall mortality rate.
Jay, I know you know what you are doing and you are better looking than me, but I must be doing something wrong because I can't honestly remember losing a fish to disease in decades. By that I mean "communicable" diseases, not neurological things, egg bound etc.

I do lose new fish many times from my own ignorance or stupidity like if I buy something I know I won't have the means or time to feed properly. Some jump out. I sometimes lose a fish because I have another one and they may be both males so won't get along and one kills the other one. That happened when I bought two of these Janss pipefish. One killed the other. I still have one of them



It happened when I got two of these Sunburst Anthius. I also have one left.



I have 5 of these, but three of them won't let two of them come out in the front and won't let them eat.



But that is all due to healthy, spawning fish. I believe, in a properly run "immune" tank or what you would call "ich management" , there should never be a communicable disease no matter how many sick fish you add.
The more parasites added, the stronger the immunity will become. At least that is my experience. And I am older than dirt. :)
 

HuduVudu

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fish were classed as "grade B SE Asian". This I DO have good data on - around a 30 to 50% mortality rate on these weak fish within the first 40 days, without factoring in any disease issues.
The question in my mind is why these fish grade B? What causes them to get that label?
Is the grade applied at the distributors? Who applies the grade to these fish?
Why is the mortality so high in this grade?
What is the difference in mortality between these and (pulling this out of my ****) grade A?
Can the average aquarist get higher quality fish that are wild caught? Can they know the grade?
Are quarantining websites just offloading the surviving grade B fish to hobbyist?
Are the collection techniques on the grade B fish such that they are trashing the fisheries? If yes how?

Thanks for letting me pick your brain. :)
 

MnFish1

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A Noob to me is someone who knows what to do to acclimate a fish, knows what to feed, doesn't have disease problems but if he does, knows what to do about it. Knows what kind of substrait he wants for his (or her) situation.
Knows the lighting he needs.

Knows how to mix water and knows that just about every creature he finds and if it is safe or not.
Knows what water parameters are and how to keep them at the levels he wants.

If a Noob finds that term offensive, they will just have to get over it because there are Noobs in all facets of life, in all jobs and all hobbies just as I was when the hobby started.
Sorry - I don't get it - it sounds like the stuff you're describing say that a Noob knows how to do everything right? So - I didn't post this to you specifically - I said it in general. My only point was that everything someone messes with something in their tank - at that point 'they are a noob' - with that equipment. That person could have been a new reefer - or someone 99 years old.

IMHO - not every 'new reefer' is a 'noob' and not every person who has had a tank for 20 years is an 'expert'. So - just for the sake of commentary - with this thread - the suggestion is that every tank that is less than 8 months old (a noob tank) - is designed to have 'much higher' mortality than with an aquarium who has been doing it for 20 years. I think this is 1) not true and 2) a little 'unwelcoming' to the 'noob aka new reefer' - that has done their homework, studied, and has done everything right.
 

MnFish1

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The question in my mind is why these fish grade B? What causes them to get that label?
Is the grade applied at the distributors? Who applies the grade to these fish?
Why is the mortality so high in this grade?
What is the difference in mortality between these and (pulling this out of my ****) grade A?
Can the average aquarist get higher quality fish that are wild caught? Can they know the grade?
Are quarantining websites just offloading the surviving grade B fish to hobbyist?
Are the collection techniques on the grade B fish such that they are trashing the fisheries? If yes how?

Thanks for letting me pick your brain. :)
I know - that one fish store here - does not go through the usual supply chain - they have their own collectors, etc and are net caught - and shipped quickly. I would say those are different from the types of fish that you see coming in (lets say 5 tangs in a large bag). I know my store receives a lot of fish from Christmas Island.

EDIT - on the other hand - fish from Vietnam - depending on when collected have high incidence of CI (I dont now about velvet) - based on a couple studies. There are also seasonal variations.
 

HuduVudu

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IMHO - not every 'new reefer' is a 'noob' and not every person who has had a tank for 20 years is an 'expert'.
I don't think @Paul B has ever suggested he is an expert reefer. I kind of get that because I don't think he has ever dated a super model, and though his wife might be as pretty as one, I don't think she did that for a living.
he suggestion is that every tank that is less than 8 months old (a noob tank) - is designed to have 'much higher' mortality than with an aquarium who has been doing it for 20 years. I think this is 1) not true
It don't think it is "by design". I think it is a statistically enevitablity. Can you get statistical anomolies ... yes. They occur all of the time. There is no getting around that someone with more experience is going to spot problems quicker and more subtly than a person that has just arrived in the hobby no matter how earnest they are.
'unwelcoming' to the 'noob aka new reefer' - that has done their homework, studied, and has done everything right.
A person like this doesn't care what other people think, they are just working to be successful. Their skin is thick because they know the wellspring of their success is on their shoulders. The thin skinned are unwilling to try and understand the convoluted lessons of this hobby.
 

i cant think

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I think this just depends on the fish in hand in all honest, I mean you can’t in any way compare a Clownfish’s care to a moorish idols care or a tilefish’s care.

I certainly find the term ‘noob’ to have different meanings bouncing around however the most common one I find it ‘Someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing or knows little about what they’re doing’. I don’t think you could ever call someone who has done their homework and done every little bit of research into owning a SW tank a noob. Maybe a an Average reefer (I forgot what it’s usually called). However I also dont think someone who can keep expert level fish is a true expert, they just know the certain care for that fish.
 

HuduVudu

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I know - that one fish store here - does not go through the usual supply chain - they have their own collectors, etc and are net caught - and shipped quickly.
100% agree with this. We are definitely making generalities here. Even @Jay Hemdal was qualifing the type of store that he is pointing to.

When I was in AZ there was store owner who had family in Sri Lanka. Had his own collection source. He got his stuff straight from them and what was left went to the LA distributors. He still struggled keeping fish alive. He was one of the better stores in town.
 

MnFish1

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Oh, and one other assumption I made here - was that the fish were purchased from a Petco sort of run of the mill LFS, and that the fish were classed as "grade B SE Asian". This I DO have good data on - around a 30 to 50% mortality rate on these weak fish within the first 40 days, without factoring in any disease issues. Then, I added the 15% mortality rate I see on post-quarantine fish annually (from 20+ years of tracking that). The guess that I made was to nudge the 45 to 65% baseline rate to 80% by adding in my guess as to how non-quarantined fish would encounter disease and raise the overall mortality rate.

Things that lower the rate: (In no particular order)

buying tank raised fish (reduces disease and cyanide issues)
buying net collected fish with short supply chain (reduces cyanide and handling issues)
Proper quarantine (reduces disease issues)
Shipping losses held at less than 3% by using air cargo and not FedEx
picking appropriate species (no orange spot filefish for example)

Doing all of those items reduces my annual mortality rate on new fishes to around 25 to perhaps 30%


Jay
Thanks alot - So - of course every answer brings new questions:):) (to me anyway) - At what point in the numbers above - with the Grade B SE asian fish - does the mortality clock start. When they are taken out of the ocean? When they hit the LFS? Or after they are sold to the reefer?

Also I'm going to ask you to make another guess:) if thats ok. Lets say someone followed all of the recommendations you listed that lower the rate - except they did not use Medication unless disease was present (I.e. they can use observation, observation with treatment when needed or nothing) - just not prophylactic medication. PS - I now this is a lot different for an EDIT - PUBLIC aquarium - as compared to John Doe's reef tank. It is very clear - and the rationale is very clear - why a large aquarium would have an excellent biosecurity program.

Lastly - you say your annual mortality - makes me wonder - do you guys ship your fish directly from the 'source' - I assume you do. So - I'm thinking your mortality means 25-30 percent of fish out of the ocean. Is that correct - And happy Thanksgiving - and thanks for all of your hard work on behalf of the hobby!
 
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Idech

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An old school diatom filter would end many of those parasite threads. If used correctly, no fish would die from a parasite at least until they become immune which they will if they are fed correctly, not quarantined to long or medicated.
I would love to use a diatom filter on my new tank. But they don’t seem to exist anymore unless you make one yourself.

I can’t diy. Anyone knows a brand that’s available to buy?
 

MnFish1

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I don't think @Paul B has ever suggested he is an expert reefer. I kind of get that because I don't think he has ever dated a super model, and though his wife might be as pretty as one, I don't think she did that for a living.

It don't think it is "by design". I think it is a statistically enevitablity. Can you get statistical anomolies ... yes. They occur all of the time. There is no getting around that someone with more experience is going to spot problems quicker and more subtly than a person that has just arrived in the hobby no matter how earnest they are.

A person like this doesn't care what other people think, they are just working to be successful. Their skin is thick because they know the wellspring of their success is on their shoulders. The thin skinned are unwilling to try and understand the convoluted lessons of this hobby.
Though I disagree with you:). - I will like the post - because I get where you're coming from - I just disagree with the ideas.

I never said Paul was an expert reefer. In fact - I said the comment wasn't directed at all at Paul.

I will skip the second one - I don't know what you mean - but - in general I think I agree.

The third - I disagree. For someone that says - for example: I started up a 150 gallon tank - I did months (and if you look at build threads) - they can take 6 -12 months. I researched XYZ, I used bottled bacteria and Dry rock. Many people have been successful with this method. Yet - They are considered (not sure what word to use) - stupid comes to mind - but lets say 'misguided'. One thing I will totally agree with is - people need thicker skins in general. I dont know why - perhaps its personal preference - I find the term 'noob' to be too general - unless you want to put it onto everyone here - because - assuming this hobby progresses - in 10 years we will all have been 'noobs' today
 

MnFish1

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I would love to use a diatom filter on my new tank. But they don’t seem to exist anymore unless you make one yourself.

I can’t diy. Anyone knows a brand that’s available to buy?
I'm not going to recommend a brand - but if you use Google you can see there are number of filters that use diatomaceous earth (diatom filters) on the market. I would look to find the one in the original glass jar - but if not - there are multiple alternatives:)
 

Ocean’s Piece

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I would say that 80% of people who get their fish from bad sources and keep them in unhealthy environments will have losses in the first 8 months if they aren’t quarantined.

but 80% is a pretty large number imo. I guess it depends on a bunch of factors, quarantine not being the only one.
 

HuduVudu

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I did months (and if you look at build threads) - they can take 6 -12 months. I researched XYZ, I used bottled bacteria and Dry rock. Many people have been successful with this method. Yet - They are considered (not sure what word to use) - stupid comes to mind - but lets say 'misguided'.
So I trade options in the stock market for a living. I found a set of books about people that trade for a living. The real eye opening thing for me was how many ways there are to trade. The ways to trade is literally infinite and only limited by ones own imagination. To this most people there is only one way to trade. Just like most people think that business is retail food. With this hobby or any other thing you very quickly find that success is centered around you. Once I finally incorporated the lessons of the books I read on trading. I started to see my stubborness surrounding what I thought trading was. It has been a painful expensive lesson. Now I trade the way that makes sense to me. It was a good sign that I was profitable right out of the gate. I had to stop fighting to trade the "right" way and start trading the way that made sense to me.

When someone has come from a past were they weren't on the right path and the predatory people that saw this would attack them incessantly, making them sensitive. I guess that I am writing this to you, to remind myself of this fact.

The successful method is the one that you say is successful and feel comfortable with. :)

I am here to steal tidbits of ideas from other people so I can put them on my spiked shell and cruise around and eat algae. :p
I dont know why - perhaps its personal preference - I find the term 'noob' to be too general - unless you want to put it onto everyone here - because - assuming this hobby progresses - in 10 years we will all have been 'noobs' today
I think using the term noob is an attempt to label the continum of skill. If a person can't run scales on a guitar then the are probably a noob. In time and with patience and practice the will advance away from this. I saw this in miltary too. When you are in basic you really dumb as box of rocks, you learn. Then you advance then you aren't noob ... you're something else. It takes a seriously advanced person to be an expert. Trust me the person that is the expert under those conditions never labels themselves as such. Jay comes to mind in this capacity.
 

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