Is live food the best food?

[sde1500]

For conversations sake? Just curious as to why some don't think live or fresh is better other than the work factor. My question wasn't meant to be aggressive, just curious.

Mainly because they said it “has to be better”. I too question that. I don’t know why it would have to be better. But it creates a circular argument. Original claim “live has to be better”. Evidence requested to back that up. Evidence requested to prove the contrary. Shouldn’t first have to provide info why they’d be wrong without first being presented what they have to show they are right. If that rambling makes sense.
As for me, I doubt live vs dead matters. Is there anything in live mysis or brine not available in frozen? Or in LRS? Now if the debate was processed vs frozen, pellets/flakes vs rods/LRS then that’s a different conversation.

 

[SDK]

This was years ago so I would have to really hunt down the articles.

No worries lol, and thanks for the response. I was genuinely curious and would definitely check out the articles if you ever find them. I’m not currently worried about a FW nematode infecting my marine fish, but I will get pulled back in to something FW related eventually. Annual killifish are always tempting me back

A lot of the conversation on this thread is anecdotal anyway. I’ve been keeping fish and feeding live food since the 70’s, so I have my own pool of experience to go by.

I have observed plenty of improved outcomes, faster weight gain, lack of disease, extended lifespans and definitely better breeding success adding live foods to my aquariums. I also happen to enjoy the mad scientist aspect of food culture, so it’s an integral part of the hobby for me.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I also make sure to feed a variety of quality dry and frozen food as well. Others are free to do either or both, and all can enjoy a healthy aquarium either way. I‘m old enough to have been on the other end, when stale Tetra Min or Wardleys flakes were the only game in town.

Aquarists today get to enjoy an embarrassment of riches and many possible paths to success.

 

[Redneck19261]

I honestly think that it just depends on the person and what they think is best for there system. I think live and frozen is better so I feed it when I can and do pellets the rest of the time. I do newly hatched BBS and some eggs depending on what hatches in transit and live pods. Plus it makes the fish work a little harder for the food. On another note I got my mandarin to eat frozen food!

 

[ca1ore]

What's your argument to prove it's not better

What’s your argument to prove it is better .... see, I can do that too LOL. Made no claim one way or the other. Just was curious why live food ‘has to be better’. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. My own anecdotal experience suggest the latter. If I had easy access to quality livefoods I’d probably use them too.

 

[Terri Caton]

Just to step in here with a possible solution...

I'm not convinced either way. On the one hand I think the fish definitely like the live food best followed by the frozen.

But to be fair fish in the wild are not fed on a schedule and they don't have worried owners regarding tank cleanliness, water parameters, etc. They eat all day long and there is no way we can do that.

On the other hand dry food is probably more highly concentrated in nutrients.

For those of you who'd like possibly the best of both worlds there is this product. Not live but almost just as good as. Doesn't move around like live but has the yolk sac, etc.

https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/4226/?pcatid=4226

 

[Nobbygas]

Why does it 'have' to be better? I used to supplement frozen/pellets with brine naupli …. then I stopped because it was just too much trouble. Guess what, no difference. Naupli are awesome for mandarins, pipefishes and other small mouthed fish but not nearly enough for larger, more active ones.

As I said, I use it as a supplement.

 

[Paul J]

I have got hold of some fish roe from the supermarket fish stall. Is it safe to feed my reef system?

 

[DSC reef]

What’s your argument to prove it is better .... see, I can do that too LOL. Made no claim one way or the other. Just was curious why live food ‘has to be better’. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. My own anecdotal experience suggest the latter. If I had easy access to quality livefoods I’d probably use them too.

I see what you did there! Lol. I agree.

 

[Redneck19261]

What’s your argument to prove it is better .... see, I can do that too LOL. Made no claim one way or the other. Just was curious why live food ‘has to be better’. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. My own anecdotal experience suggest the latter. If I had easy access to quality livefoods I’d probably use them too.

In my opinion it is better. I feel like some nutrients can be lost in the process of making pellets. Plus like what was stated before BBS still have the yolk sack attached. Thats why when you order from algea barn they ship as eggs and hatch during the shipping process so they will still have the yolk sack and so the fish will get more out of it. I do want to try the LRS frozen food though. Looks really good.

 

[Redneck19261]

I have got hold of some fish roe from the supermarket fish stall. Is it safe to feed my reef system?

Fish roe?

 

[Nobbygas]

In my opinion it is better. I feel like some nutrients can be lost in the process of making pellets. Plus like what was stated before BBS still have the yolk sack attached. Thats why when you order from algea barn they ship as eggs and hatch during the shipping process so they will still have the yolk sack and so the fish will get more out of it. I do want to try the LRS frozen food though. Looks really good.

That is what happens with the JBL baby Brine Shrimp hatchery. The babies feed off the egg sac for the first three days of their lives. If you feed them to the tank after one day, you are also feeding the fish with the egg sac.
Cost? The egg/salt mix costs about eleven dollars/euros. Each harvest will provide enough shrimp for three feeds, with the tub holding enough for fourteen harvests....that makes a total of forty two feeds of baby Brine Shrimp for eleven dollars! It's cheap and very easy.

 

[sde1500]

In my opinion it is better. I feel like some nutrients can be lost in the process of making pellets

I wouldn't argue that a newly hatched bbs has more nutrients than adults bs without gut loading. The problem is when we delve further into the question "Is live food best?" Obviously much that has been offered here is nothing more than opinion, yes or no. Curious if there are actual details/studies that show live is better.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Fish roe?

Fish roe is an excellent source of protein and fatty acids. Just make sure you are getting it fresh from a fish and not purchasing the dyed fish eggs sold for the sushi trade. They can be highly processed and void of many of the beneficial nutrients. We harvest these eggs every Spring from wild caught fish in the Carolinas.

I'll share some information which I have learned over the last few years from some of the leading researchers in the field of captive breeding. Trying to determine a "best" food can be difficult because there are many factors which come into play and comparing nutritional labels is only a starting point. While we do produce a frozen food we also distribute premium liquid foods as well as several dry, pellet and flake foods. These are great feeds and offer a convenient alternative to frozen foods with quality nutrition. The only live foods we distribute are Tigger-Pods® and live phytoplankton from Reef Nutrition which are both very popular. Monday we just moved into our new facility which I shared here:

LRS is expanding again into a 2700 square foot space!!

Anyone who has followed LRS since the early days in 2012 may recall we initially produced our foods on our kitchen table. Shortly after our humble beginnings we tore down a wall and expanded into a commercial kitchen attached to our home. (We live on a 13 acre farm zoned mixed-use...

www.reef2reef.com

A few years ago I was urged to develop a commercially packaged broodstock conditioning diet. I was advised on the optimal EPA/DHA fatty acid ratios as well as protein levels, pigmentation enhancers, probiotics, etc. So after months of trial and error we finalized what is known as our "Fertility Frenzy®" formula. Initially clownfish breeders were our largest test base. Reports started coming back about increased egg clutches as well as more rapid spawning behavior. Then the laboratories and universities began to experience similar findings with other species of fish. There seemed to be more going on than just anecdotal success with a new food so we were asked to send food off for additional lab testing. Researchers wanted to know what was making this food give better results than the frozen diets they had been feeding for months or years. We shipped food off to the lab and had a full fatty acid panel completed which showed the exact levels of the beneficial fats in the food. Speaking with the various researchers we came to a couple conclusions as to why this food was providing better results than previous diets. It boiled down to freshness and diversity, which is true with all of our foods.

Foods begin to break down the longer they are stored in the freezer or if they are processed extensively. For these reasons a frozen food with freshly harvested seafood containing a variety of whole ingredients will have more intact fats and proteins than say a frozen food sitting a year in the distribution chain. In addition an all-in-one frozen blended food containing shrimp, scallop, PE Mysis, clam, oyster, whitefish, fish eggs, blackworms, seaweed, etc. offers diversity over a single ingredient food.

Saltwater fish also need to ingest the proper amounts of amino acids to get complete nutrition. Freshwater fish are more forgiving in this area but if a SW fish doesn't ingest the proper nutrients they certainly won't be satiated and exhibit spawning behavior.

Of course I may be a little biased but there are about a dozen captive breeding projects on our website testimonial page where breeders stated they noted larger egg clutches and more robust larvae after switching to frozen foods. LRS has been credited with a few captive breeding "firsts" and mentioned in several MACNA talks. To this day the largest portion of Fertility Frenzy® shipments go to universities, aquaculture labs and public aquariums. I am also aware that massive amounts of pellet and dry foods are used in aquaculture, especially in the production of finfish for human consumption. TDO is an excellent dry pellet and many, many breeders and facilities use it as well.

I don't know that there can be a "best" food but I always recommend people seek out the best quality frozen or dry food they can find. Compare nutritional labels, see what has worked well for friends or at the LFS. In a perfect world we could live by the ocean and go out every day with a net and collect plankton or other live foods, but the reality is we need to find convenient alternatives.

 

[S.Pepper]

Fish roe is an excellent source of protein and fatty acids. Just make sure you are getting it fresh from a fish and not purchasing the dyed fish eggs sold for the sushi trade. They can be highly processed and void of many of the beneficial nutrients. We harvest these eggs every Spring from wild caught fish in the Carolinas.

I'll share some information which I have learned over the last few years from some of the leading researchers in the field of captive breeding. Trying to determine a "best" food can be difficult because there are many factors which come into play and comparing nutritional labels is only a starting point. While we do produce a frozen food we also distribute premium liquid foods as well as several dry, pellet and flake foods. These are great feeds and offer a convenient alternative to frozen foods with quality nutrition. The only live foods we distribute are Tigger-Pods® and live phytoplankton from Reef Nutrition which are both very popular. Monday we just moved into our new facility which I shared here:

LRS is expanding again into a 2700 square foot space!!

Anyone who has followed LRS since the early days in 2012 may recall we initially produced our foods on our kitchen table. Shortly after our humble beginnings we tore down a wall and expanded into a commercial kitchen attached to our home. (We live on a 13 acre farm zoned mixed-use...

www.reef2reef.com

A few years ago I was urged to develop a commercially packaged broodstock conditioning diet. I was advised on the optimal EPA/DHA fatty acid ratios as well as protein levels, pigmentation enhancers, probiotics, etc. So after months of trial and error we finalized what is known as our "Fertility Frenzy®" formula. Initially clownfish breeders were our largest test base. Reports started coming back about increased egg clutches as well as more rapid spawning behavior. Then the laboratories and universities began to experience similar findings with other species of fish. There seemed to be more going on than just anecdotal success with a new food so we were asked to send food off for additional lab testing. Researchers wanted to know what was making this food give better results than the frozen diets they had been feeding for months or years. We shipped food off to the lab and had a full fatty acid panel completed which showed the exact levels of the beneficial fats in the food. Speaking with the various researchers we came to a couple conclusions as to why this food was providing better results than previous diets. It boiled down to freshness and diversity, which is true with all of our foods.

Foods begin to break down the longer they are stored in the freezer or if they are processed extensively. For these reasons a frozen food with freshly harvested seafood containing a variety of whole ingredients will have more intact fats and proteins than say a frozen food sitting a year in the distribution chain. In addition an all-in-one frozen blended food containing shrimp, scallop, PE Mysis, clam, oyster, whitefish, fish eggs, blackworms, seaweed, etc. offers diversity over a single ingredient food.

Saltwater fish also need to ingest the proper amounts of amino acids to get complete nutrition. Freshwater fish are more forgiving in this area but if a SW fish doesn't ingest the proper nutrients they certainly won't be satiated and exhibit spawning behavior.

Of course I may be a little biased but there are about a dozen captive breeding projects on our website testimonial page where breeders stated they noted larger egg clutches and more robust larvae after switching to frozen foods. LRS has been credited with a few captive breeding "firsts" and mentioned in several MACNA talks. To this day the largest portion of Fertility Frenzy® shipments go to universities, aquaculture labs and public aquariums. I am also aware that massive amounts of pellet and dry foods are used in aquaculture, especially in the production of finfish for human consumption. TDO is an excellent dry pellet and many, many breeders and facilities use it as well.

I don't know that there can be a "best" food but I always recommend people seek out the best quality frozen or dry food they can find. Compare nutritional labels, see what has worked well for friends or at the LFS. In a perfect world we could live by the ocean and go out every day with a net and collect plankton or other live foods, but the reality is we need to find convenient alternatives.

That looks like shad roe. I'm getting hungry. ;Hilarious

 

[hotdrop]

Fish roe is an excellent source of protein and fatty acids. Just make sure you are getting it fresh from a fish and not purchasing the dyed fish eggs sold for the sushi trade. They can be highly processed and void of many of the beneficial nutrients. We harvest these eggs every Spring from wild caught fish in the Carolinas.

I'll share some information which I have learned over the last few years from some of the leading researchers in the field of captive breeding. Trying to determine a "best" food can be difficult because there are many factors which come into play and comparing nutritional labels is only a starting point. While we do produce a frozen food we also distribute premium liquid foods as well as several dry, pellet and flake foods. These are great feeds and offer a convenient alternative to frozen foods with quality nutrition. The only live foods we distribute are Tigger-Pods® and live phytoplankton from Reef Nutrition which are both very popular. Monday we just moved into our new facility which I shared here:

LRS is expanding again into a 2700 square foot space!!

Anyone who has followed LRS since the early days in 2012 may recall we initially produced our foods on our kitchen table. Shortly after our humble beginnings we tore down a wall and expanded into a commercial kitchen attached to our home. (We live on a 13 acre farm zoned mixed-use...

www.reef2reef.com

A few years ago I was urged to develop a commercially packaged broodstock conditioning diet. I was advised on the optimal EPA/DHA fatty acid ratios as well as protein levels, pigmentation enhancers, probiotics, etc. So after months of trial and error we finalized what is known as our "Fertility Frenzy®" formula. Initially clownfish breeders were our largest test base. Reports started coming back about increased egg clutches as well as more rapid spawning behavior. Then the laboratories and universities began to experience similar findings with other species of fish. There seemed to be more going on than just anecdotal success with a new food so we were asked to send food off for additional lab testing. Researchers wanted to know what was making this food give better results than the frozen diets they had been feeding for months or years. We shipped food off to the lab and had a full fatty acid panel completed which showed the exact levels of the beneficial fats in the food. Speaking with the various researchers we came to a couple conclusions as to why this food was providing better results than previous diets. It boiled down to freshness and diversity, which is true with all of our foods.

Foods begin to break down the longer they are stored in the freezer or if they are processed extensively. For these reasons a frozen food with freshly harvested seafood containing a variety of whole ingredients will have more intact fats and proteins than say a frozen food sitting a year in the distribution chain. In addition an all-in-one frozen blended food containing shrimp, scallop, PE Mysis, clam, oyster, whitefish, fish eggs, blackworms, seaweed, etc. offers diversity over a single ingredient food.

Saltwater fish also need to ingest the proper amounts of amino acids to get complete nutrition. Freshwater fish are more forgiving in this area but if a SW fish doesn't ingest the proper nutrients they certainly won't be satiated and exhibit spawning behavior.

Of course I may be a little biased but there are about a dozen captive breeding projects on our website testimonial page where breeders stated they noted larger egg clutches and more robust larvae after switching to frozen foods. LRS has been credited with a few captive breeding "firsts" and mentioned in several MACNA talks. To this day the largest portion of Fertility Frenzy® shipments go to universities, aquaculture labs and public aquariums. I am also aware that massive amounts of pellet and dry foods are used in aquaculture, especially in the production of finfish for human consumption. TDO is an excellent dry pellet and many, many breeders and facilities use it as well.

I don't know that there can be a "best" food but I always recommend people seek out the best quality frozen or dry food they can find. Compare nutritional labels, see what has worked well for friends or at the LFS. In a perfect world we could live by the ocean and go out every day with a net and collect plankton or other live foods, but the reality is we need to find convenient alternatives.

I keep meaning to switch to this product, one of the fish breeders at macna was taking about how much better his results were after. I don’t really have any need to bees fish but if it’s good for beading it’s probably great for the rest of the lifecycle

 

[stanleo]

No worries lol, and thanks for the response. I was genuinely curious and would definitely check out the articles if you ever find them.

Well I did a search and frankly afterwords have to admit that I may have been wrong. I did find anecdotal accounts from other fish keepers regarding infected blackworms and that may have been what I based my conclusion on. The official articles I found state that blackworms don't transmit any parasitical infections. There is a danger when feeding the worms after they have died but that comes from a bacteria that proliferates in the worm postmortem. Cool I can start doing that again.

I think I came to the conclusion because the symptoms I was seeing was most often caused by keeping fish in a pH that is unnatural for them or poor water quality and I know that wasn't the case here. Also, the infection happened almost immediately after feeding the worms and I had made no other changes at that time.

 

[SDK]

Well I did a search and frankly afterwords have to admit that I may have been wrong. I did find anecdotal accounts from other fish keepers regarding infected blackworms and that may have been what I based my conclusion on. The official articles I found state that blackworms don't transmit any parasitical infections. There is a danger when feeding the worms after they have died but that comes from a bacteria that proliferates in the worm postmortem. Cool I can start doing that again.

I think I came to the conclusion because the symptoms I was seeing was most often caused by keeping fish in a pH that is unnatural for them or poor water quality and I know that wasn't the case here. Also, the infection happened almost immediately after feeding the worms and I had made no other changes at that time.

Thanks for the follow up information....

I keep my Blackworms very clean and healthy, just for that reason. They are just a once in a while treat now. If I feed them too much my white worm cultures start to get too full. Then they crash faster...

Also thanks for the great write-up @ReefFrenzy

LRS is in my frozen rotation. My fish love the Reef Frenzy....

My current food rotation is below, and it keeps everything fat and healthy:

Live:

Blackworms
White Worms
Grindal Worms
Clams
BBS- Occasionally

Frozen:

LRS Reef Frenzy
SBB Spirulina Brine.
PE Mysis
Clams- (leftovers from fresh)

Dry:

NLS Marine Pellets
Nori
TDO Chromaboost Pellets
Reef Chili
Reef Roids
NLS Flakes (indirectly- I feed these to my white worms to gutload them)

 

[Paul B]

IMO, I think there "may" be more vitamins and minerals in dry food or pellets but I don't think that matters. Fish don't need more vitamins and minerals, they need what they were designed to eat in the proportions they were designed to eat it.

We humans take vitamins and minerals and probably 99% of it is wasted and eliminated because we don't need "more" than our bodies can use.

All that aside I firmly believe dry foods should never be used as a steady diet "unless" they are supplemented with live or freshly frozen foods for one reason.

Bacteria. I realize I say this a lot but it is the living "disease" bacteria that all fish get in every meal in the sea that is missing in dry foods. Not only disease bacteria but normal fish gut bacteria that is re-established with every meal in the sea and in our tanks if we feed the correct food.

A fish will "never" become immune to anything if it is not exposed to the correct bacteria and parasites. Just my opinion of course and I have been here as long as the fish.

 

[S.Pepper]

IMO, I think there "may" be more vitamins and minerals in dry food or pellets but I don't think that matters. Fish don't need more vitamins and minerals, they need what they were designed to eat in the proportions they were designed to eat it.

We humans take vitamins and minerals and probably 99% of it is wasted and eliminated because we don't need "more" than our bodies can use.

All that aside I firmly believe dry foods should never be used as a steady diet "unless" they are supplemented with live or freshly frozen foods for one reason.

Bacteria. I realize I say this a lot but it is the living "disease" bacteria that all fish get in every meal in the sea that is missing in dry foods. Not only disease bacteria but normal fish gut bacteria that is re-established with every meal in the sea and in our tanks if we feed the correct food.

A fish will "never" become immune to anything if it is not exposed to the correct bacteria and parasites. Just my opinion of course and I have been here as long as the fish.

I'll be putting your 'theory' to the test--as I have been planning on for some time now; just need the fish. Not that I doubt them... I've just never done it before. I won't have a quarantine tank. thx.

 

[fishybizzness]

IMO, I think there "may" be more vitamins and minerals in dry food or pellets but I don't think that matters. Fish don't need more vitamins and minerals, they need what they were designed to eat in the proportions they were designed to eat it.

We humans take vitamins and minerals and probably 99% of it is wasted and eliminated because we don't need "more" than our bodies can use.

All that aside I firmly believe dry foods should never be used as a steady diet "unless" they are supplemented with live or freshly frozen foods for one reason.

Bacteria. I realize I say this a lot but it is the living "disease" bacteria that all fish get in every meal in the sea that is missing in dry foods. Not only disease bacteria but normal fish gut bacteria that is re-established with every meal in the sea and in our tanks if we feed the correct food.

A fish will "never" become immune to anything if it is not exposed to the correct bacteria and parasites. Just my opinion of course and I have been here as long as the fish.

Question, How good of a diet do you think a high quality pellet food combined with grindal worms is for fish?