Is my cycle stuck?

[kitti-fish]

Tank is only 6 days old and this is only my second time cycling a saltwater so I’m still a newbie in my eyes..I used Dr Tim’s Ammonia coupled with MicroBacter Starter XLM as well as a live rock from my smaller tank and biomedia in my canister. It promises to cycle a tank within a week but I’m starting to doubt it. I added ammonia accordingly to read 2ppm. However, it’s been stuck at 1ppm for the past 3 days. That being said, I know API test are not the best but I also tested my mature nano tank and the readings were correct (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10 nitrate). I added a bit more microbacter as I thought maybe there isn’t enough. Should I continue to wait it out? Should I dose a bit more ammonia to reach 2 ppm again? Testing from my larger tank.

 

[kitti-fish]

Just to clarify, what tests are in the photograph? The 6 day one?

Yes this is the most recent test.

 

[BeanAnimal]

, although I’m just a bit perplexed on microbacter stating 7 day cycle. I’d rather not kill my clownfish if possible as they were expensive and I hope to keep them their whole life. I know ammonia at 1ppm may be toxic to coral so I am not sure if I should continue running my nano to keep the coral in there. I have never done a move like this and I do t want to screw it up.

Given you concerns, I would wait a few more days -- simply for peace of mind -- so that you can see the actual level tested drop.

Bacteria are not magic. They don't instantly expand in density to a balanced level when "new" food is added. A "bottle" of bacteria is some random amount of viable cells that may or may not be healthy based on many variables.

We know that you added existing live rock that will help seed the process. The question is, given the system volume, mass of the rock and substrate, etc. -- is there enough bacteria to process 2ppm of Ammonia rapidly in that system, or is it going to take some number of days to ramp up to that capacity.

Different bacterium have different life cycles and will expand at different rates. I have no idea what is in the product that you dumped in, but some tests do indicate that it is a slower to expand bacteria than others. I don't know if it is nitrifying bacteria in the bottle, or some other bacterium that acts as a food source for the nitrifies.

The point is, that there is not likely a "stall" -- but simply a ramp up period that is not wholly predictable. So give it a few days and be comfortable, unless some other problem necessitates the immediate transfer of your livestock.

I would certainly defer to @Dan_P -- he has done a lot of work in this area.

 

[kitti-fish]

Given you concerns, I would wait a few more days -- simply for peace of mind -- so that you can see the actual level tested drop.

Bacteria are not magic. They don't instantly expand in density to a balanced level when "new" food is added. A "bottle" of bacteria is some random amount of viable cells that may or may not be healthy based on many variables.

We know that you added existing live rock that will help seed the process. The question is, given the system volume, mass of the rock and substrate, etc. -- is there enough bacteria to process 2ppm of Ammonia rapidly in that system, or is it going to take some number of days to ramp up to that capacity.

Different bacterium have different life cycles and will expand at different rates. I have no idea what is in the product that you dumped in, but some tests do indicate that it is a slower to expand bacteria than others. I don't know if it is nitrifying bacteria in the bottle, or some other bacterium that acts as a food source for the nitrifies.

The point is, that there is not likely a "stall" -- but simply a ramp up period that is not wholly predictable. So give it a few days and be comfortable, unless some other problem necessitates the immediate transfer of your livestock.

I would certainly defer to @Dan_P -- he has done a lot of work in this area.

Thank you! This is the product I used in my tank. The product states:

• Super concentrated 15X Suspension of LIVE non-pathogenic microbes, specifically formulated to extremely rapidly establish biological filtration in new aquarium set-ups, and to enhance the rate of nitrification in existing systems.

I do wonder due the the size of tank which is only 32.5 gallons, if there isn’t enough bacteria to process the ammonia. It’s so hot where I live and I wonder if the heat may have killed off some of the good bacteria, even though I started refrigerating the bottle. I am not sure at this point. My current tank is healthy and stable so I will continue to just watch the new tank. I may give it another week and see what the readings are. I just wasn’t sure if I should add more bacteria or perhaps add ammonia to reach 2ppm again and see if it will go down. It has gone down by 1ppm but I feel like it hasn’t gone lower. The API test doesn’t give me an exact number so I wanted to make sure I wasn’t crazy.

 

[BeanAnimal]

What the marketing says, what is in the bottle and what is healthy when you pour the bottle in can be (3) different things.

The takeaway here is that you did add established live rock too - so you have a good start, one way or the other.

I personally don't see a need to add more bacteria.

The test kit shows 0 on an established tank, and something higher on this tank. So you have a reference, even if the numbers are not exact.

If it were me, I would not add more ammonia, and instead just see where this goes. If I didn't see movement, I would maybe then add a more and "reset" my observation to watch it drop.

If I was in an emergency and had to place my livestock due to some other issue, I would likely do a partial water change, a quick test and move forward with adding the livestock, trusting in the fact that the system will catch up sooner than later -- otherwise (as mentioned above) I would relax and wait a few more days -- just because I could.

 

[twentyleagues]

A couple points here.
1 Listen to @BeanAnimal and @Dan_P both are knowledgeable and have their heads on straight.
2 I used microbacter xlm on my current tank and I did notice it took more than 10 days to start seeing a reduction in ammonia and that was after I dumped the rest of the bottle in. It may be like bean says its just a slow starter or may be most of my bottle was not viable.
3 API test for the most part work just fine. They are not as precise as some other tests but in all reality do they need to be? No. I grew corals and bred clownfish for years using just API test kits. I like that you tested the api kit on a known cycled tank good thinking! Ammonia test is the hardest one for me to judge color change on. This is the biggest down fall of api tests imo, and its not the tests fault its our eyes.

Dan and another guy I can never remember how to spell his name though (sorry), do a bunch of testing on bacteria and stuff and seem at least to me to collaborate quite a bit. So if either one of them chime in on a question like this perk up those ears.

 

[brandon429]

there will always be the claim that a given system is harming fish, burning them without symptoms in cycle assessments. one side is stating done, another side is hesitant and ever-verifying as if we're on the edge of a precipice routinely found online

for contrast

can any reader here post one example from a reef thread they were in, where a cycling tank crashed? just one

not one you searched out from a dec ago, one you were in

let's see # of failed cycles seen by the cautious/re-verify camp

this is positive for readers because they need to be able to see the actual continuum of risk we're on. side note: a full reef stocked on day one, about $500 in animals all at once with zero wait.

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

this tank here...six days, multi inocs, two clowns. balances were factored in the calls here.

the irony of trying to search out actual failed bottle bac cycles we've personally been in: none.

another reason to want to inspect actual loss threads has to do with harming animals during bad cycles. if some of the looser methods of cycling are indeed harmful, that continuum will express occasionally (as opposed to not ever, not once we have seen) and those links would be findable.

if we're dealing in degrees of claimed harm, and there aren't any crash threads we've seen, we might not actually be harming even with the looser methods.

For the claim/ assumption that fish are sublethally harmed during speed cycles, even though there's no crash links posted: i have several examples that also include lysmata shrimp in the original animal lineup, the ones claimed harmed. So the harm can't be detected behaviorally, in any reef animal? = convenient

 

[twentyleagues]

there will always be the claim that a given system is harming fish, burning them without symptoms in cycle assessments. one side is stating done, another side is hesitant and ever-verifying as if we're on the edge of a precipice routinely found online

for contrast

can any reader here post one example from a reef thread they were in, where a cycling tank crashed? just one

not one you searched out from a dec ago, one you were in

let's see # of failed cycles seen by the cautious/re-verify camp

this is positive for readers because they need to be able to see the actual continuum of risk we're on. side note: a full reef stocked on day one, about $500 in animals all at once with zero wait.

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

this tank here...six days, multi inocs, two clowns. balances were factored in the calls here.

the irony of trying to search out actual failed bottle bac cycles we've personally been in: none.

Humor me here for a minute, will ya?
You say its cycled or that a stall can not happen. I am not going to argue that. Here is my point. Lets say its cycled, now we go into disease prep, right? So the tank was cycled now we start to think about setting up qt tanks or buying qt'd fish and observation tanks separate from this tank to not introduce disease. That all takes time right? This tank sits until we get QT'd fish, Yes? Who cares then if this is cycled in 6 days 10 days or 2 months? Who cares what we test on this tank during our search for qt'd fish or our research on proper disease control? You say its done after you add the bottled product and x days. Cool. But after that you start thinking about disease control not before? So this new cycled tank sits for a minimum of 45 days for a proper QT of incoming fish. "New cycle science" "old cycle science" doesnt seem to matter if you are waiting 2 months to add fish to it. I guess this is where the "new cycle science" can be put to use as you will need to now cycle your qt tank before your fish to be qt'd goes into it. Now I see.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

As mentioned by others, I would not add more ammonia, just watch what you have currently drop. The cycle in your tank is working, No3 is evidence of that. In the future, you could have put the live rock with corals in you new tank, because corals do a good job of using Ammonium as a food source. In fact with such a low Bio-load you had in your 13.5, you probably could have just moved your whole tank over and never missed a beat. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I would just watch your ammonia go down over the next couple days and your good.

 

[kitti-fish]

As mentioned by others, I would not add more ammonia, just watch what you have currently drop. The cycle in your tank is working, No3 is evidence of that. In the future, you could have put the live rock with corals in you new tank, because corals do a good job of using Ammonium as a food source. In fact with such a low Bio-load you had in your 13.5, you probably could have just moved your whole tank over and never missed a beat. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I would just watch your ammonia go down over the next couple days and your good.

Could I perhaps still move the rock with coral on it?

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Could I perhaps still move the rock with coral on it?

My hesitation would be the difference in ammonia might be to great between the two. I mean you could drip acclimate your rock... but I would just wait a couple days. Although in reality it probably be fine but... You do not need to be putting out any fires in case it is not.

 

[brandon429]

Twenty leagues

A cycle cannot be starved in a home reef tank. Firm rule, updated cycling science

anyone with a seneye and a home reef aquarium: please, please test that claim. report back immediately.

 

[brandon429]

why it's fun to be in the middle of cycling troubleshoot threads where few people agree on past, present, future:

because it's fascinating we all run successful reef systems using polar opposite cycling science. we all wind up at the same destination, with no ability/low ability/to find examples of fails so far

the fact we are 30 yrs into the hobby and still cannot unanimously advise a new tanker on cycling best practices means we're smack in the wild west of a developing science.

I choose to advise cyclers based on the collective data from all web posts I've seen and the inherent timings found in those threads (start date, dose date, add fish date, did it work or not, x1000000)
I find it easier than choosing when, and when not to, believe api. I've seen and can link pictures of the darkest green api reading coming from a tank with several anthias happily swimming among sps.

using today's ammonia test kits to discern cycle readiness doesn't work well, we can see. what I'm honing is a system where you confidently assign a ready date to a cycle, independent from stated test levels, that's what the wild west needs

*we don't just use fish as proof of success, a lifeform that can be burned.

Ive had updated cycling science pass several seneye audits from public threads and chats: no need to update course yet. predictions are in place still.

the reason I use updated/new cycling science vs old, to characterize these interactions, is because we're advising cyclers using polar opposite rules and that needs a label. the dichotomy of advice as I see it is new vs old hashing underway.

 

[Dan_P]

Yes this is the most recent test.

OK thanks. The ammonia level looks like 0.5 ppm, right?

I saw @BeanAnimal replies and he said what I was going to say. I will add that Dr. Tim’s can be very slow to get going. Getting a strong population of nitrifying bacteria in 6 days is extremely optimistic. I also noted that the nitrite test color is difficult to match to any color on the reference card. The bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate can be excruciatingly slow to start working. I expected to see a very high nitrite reading at six days which does not seem to be the case. That points to unprocessed ammonia, confirming the ammonia test results.

So, your cycling process is not stuck but very slow to get going. I have seen this process take 2-3 weeks with Dr. Tim’s. Also, as BeanAnimal points out the ammonia consuming capacity of the media and live rock you put into the new system does not seem to be high enough to make up for the slow start of Dr. Tim’s.

If the bottle didn’t promise results in 6 days, would this have felt like a stuck cycle?

 

[kitti-fish]

OK thanks. The ammonia level looks like 0.5 ppm, right?

I saw @BeanAnimal replies and he said what I was going to say. I will add that Dr. Tim’s can be very slow to get going. Getting a strong population of nitrifying bacteria in 6 days is extremely optimistic. I also noted that the nitrite test color is difficult to match to any color on the reference card. The bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate can be excruciatingly slow to start working. I expected to see a very high nitrite reading at six days which does not seem to be the case. That points to unprocessed ammonia, confirming the ammonia test results.

So, your cycling process is not stuck but very slow to get going. I have seen this process take 2-3 weeks with Dr. Tim’s. Also, as BeanAnimal points out the ammonia consuming capacity of the media and live rock you put into the new system does not seem to be high enough to make up for the slow start of Dr. Tim’s.

If the bottle didn’t promise results in 6 days, would this have felt like a stuck cycle?

I thought they were reading at 1ppm still. I feel like I’m color blind when I read this test. I’ll give it another week. I’ve cycled a few freshwater tanks and I always feel like I’ve done something wrong when it comes to saltwater.

And perhaps a little. I expected to see ammonia still go down slowly but again without a digital reader to give me precise numbers, I can only go by the basic pp numbers I see.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

I thought they were reading at 1ppm still. I feel like I’m color blind when I read this test. I’ll give it another week. I’ve cycled a few freshwater tanks and I always feel like I’ve done something wrong when it comes to saltwater.

And perhaps a little. I expected to see ammonia still go down slowly but again without a digital reader to give me precise numbers, I can only go by the basic pp numbers I see.

You can alway run out and pick up a Salifert Nh3 test kit. they are 15ish dollars and much easier to read. Your LFS should have one. (Hopefully)

 

[kitti-fish]

You can alway run out and pick up a Salifert Nh3 test kit. they are 15ish dollars and much easier to read. Your LFS should have one. (Hopefully)

Sadly today I can’t as I have a pretty packed day but I may try tomorrow. My LFS sadly also moved almost an hour away from me but I’ll try tomorrow get something else to test.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Sadly today I can’t as I have a pretty packed day but I may try tomorrow. My LFS sadly also moved almost an hour away from me but I’ll try tomorrow get something else to test.

I wouldn’t bother then. API is just hard to read. Maybe just put it on your next big box store order to have around. (it is always good just in case) No need for a Hanna for that.
On a side note, you might want to keep your 13.5 for a QT tank instead of selling it. But two petco 10g's make great QT tanks for fish. I would use the 13.5 for coral/invert QT.

 

[kitti-fish]

I wouldn’t bother then. API is just hard to read. Maybe just put it on your next big box store order to have around. (it is always good just in case) No need for a Hanna for that.
On a side note, you might want to keep your 13.5 for a QT tank instead of selling it. But two petco 10g's make great QT tanks for fish. I would use the 13.5 for coral/invert QT.

Huh! I didn’t think of that. I do have to move it since I want to give my husband the metal stand but that’s not a bad idea, mainly cause I don’t want parasites from new coral. Thanks for the idea!

 

[exnisstech]

I'm just curious does anyone else not test ammonia? I haven't owned an ammonia or nitrite test kit in years. I've cycled several tanks over the last few years and once I see nitrates I begin slowly adding livestock and I've not had any mysterious deaths. Sure I've had unexplained deaths months and years later but none soon after adding livestock to a tank I considered cycled enough to support life.

 

[twentyleagues]

Twenty leagues

A cycle cannot be starved in a home reef tank. Firm rule, updated cycling science

anyone with a seneye and a home reef aquarium: please, please test that claim. report back immediately.

Huh?
Not what I asked or alluded to.
I understand cycling a tank. I am unsure of your terminology on new cycle science but I said that wasnt what I am after here either. I continually wonder why you preach cycling the tank and then disease prep why not disease prep cycle qt and then cycle dt while qt is ongoing?
I understand you wont kill a cycle while the tank is fallow awaiting fish from qt.
My other issue is if its cycled in 10 days or 15 days or whatever that bottle says whats wrong with taking our time and seeing the whole cycle take place while we await our qt'd fish. Why do you push so hard against this aspect of the cycle. Its still happening whether or not you wish to acknowledge it.