Is shading crap?

Discussion in 'General SPS Discussion' started by madweazl, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. BoomCorals

    BoomCorals www.boomcorals.com R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor Toys For Kids Sponsor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2017
    Messages:
    3,918
    Likes Received:
    5,578
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I was just thinking that myself! There is so much science behind all of this. Truly fascinating.
     
    saltyfilmfolks likes this.

  2. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Well-Known Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor Expert Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    1,785
    Location:
    Dallas, Georgia
  3. jda

    jda Valuable Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,304
    Likes Received:
    2,080
    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    Although long out of fashion with the folks who tout flow GPH numbers like it is ***** size, a true wavebox will get flow and water between every branch, crevice, nook and cranny that flow pumps cannot reach and nothing is untouched. You get back and forth scrubbing 24x7. I will never have a tank without one... and that is saying something since I am calculating that the new tank will require 4x Tunze 6100s in a box to get a 1" wave.
     
  4. madweazl

    madweazl Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,921
    Likes Received:
    1,810
    Location:
    Virginia
    I have a hard time understanding what you base things on most of the time you reply. What makes you believe that type of waveform leaves nothing untouched? I'm not sure which pumps aren't capable of generating that type of waveform but Ecotechs do it without issue as well. Additionally, what makes you believe a pair (or more) of pumps on opposite ends of a tank in anti-sync using a different wave-form aren't capable of leaving "nothing untouched?"
     
    DSC reef likes this.
  5. jda

    jda Valuable Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,304
    Likes Received:
    2,080
    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    Experience. There are some thing that you need to see for yourself and not just read about or watch on a video. Put a true wavebox on your tank - you could use a Ecotech for this and build a box - see the difference in the waves that they make. The difference is pretty amazing.
     
  6. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Well-Known Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor Expert Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    1,785
    Location:
    Dallas, Georgia
    I'm a big fan of Tunze products, and it has been my intent to compare calcium sulfate dissolution rates (the 'clod' method) when using a Wave Box and an appropriately sized propeller pump. I suspect the prop pump will beat the wave box, but if I knew the result ahead of time I could simply skip the experiment.;) But it really depends upon the animals being maintained and their water velocity saturation rates.
     
    madweazl and mcarroll like this.
  7. mcarroll

    mcarroll Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    13,040
    Likes Received:
    6,349
    Location:
    Virginia
    Precisely...my understanding is that this is their adaptations to surface-living....have to be able to break the incredible force of the water AND the incredible energy from the sun that exist there. Both amazingly destructive, so it's a pretty amazing set of adaptations.

    I seem to remember that they can achieve something like a 60-70% reduction in light hitting them just by branching the way they do. (Pretty sure that was regarding an acropora.)

    It would be interesting to know if it's a comparable amount of energy dispersion from water as well.

    I've got a few intersting articles saved that at least mention the topic...

    Is the coral-algae symbiosis really ‘mutually beneficial’ for the partners? is one of them.

    Oceanic Forcing of Coral Reefs also has some really interesting stuff on water flow.

    And although it's a tangent....if the function of coral shapes are interesting to anyone else, here's another one of potential interest:
    Function of Funnel-Shaped Coral Growth in a High-Sedimentation Environment (This one also has nice tips on water velocity.)
     
  8. jda

    jda Valuable Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,304
    Likes Received:
    2,080
    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    Dana - skip the experiment and use both. Inside polyp extension is much more significant with the wavebox and it does a great job of working debris both in and out of the colonies without letting it settle... then you need a flow pump to move it away. The same thing happens in the rock structure.
     
    Dana Riddle likes this.
  9. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Well-Known Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor Expert Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    1,785
    Location:
    Dallas, Georgia
    I'm a giant proponent of increasing water motion within an aquarium, but my experience with using only *a* Wave Box as the motive force resulted in failure of Porites corals to extend their polyps after a few months' time. I know of at least two other aquarists who were unable to maintain SPS corals for extended periods of time using only devices that generate oscillating water motion. Were these issues due to water motion or some other factor? That's the reason I feel the experiment has some merit. This idea has been fermenting for a while, see here:
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/1/aafeature
     
    hart24601, mcarroll and S-t-r-e-t-c-h like this.
  10. jda

    jda Valuable Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,304
    Likes Received:
    2,080
    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    If you do decide to experiment, I would not treat them as mutually exclusive since there is no need in practice. Of all the people that I know who swear by wave boxes, they still have substantial flow pumps as well. If I had to choose, I would keep my flow pumps and get rid of the wave box, but it is impossible now that I have seen what it can do in combination.
     
    Dana Riddle likes this.
  11. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Well-Known Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor Expert Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    1,785
    Location:
    Dallas, Georgia
    My goal is for hobbyists to maintain the highest rate of success, hence the experiments. Oscillating flow has been shown to promote the highest rates of photosynthesis in some turf algae species. Does the same apply to corals? If so, at what rate? I have no doubt that increasing water motion, up to a point, is beneficial. Glad to hear of your successes!
     
    madweazl likes this.
  12. mcarroll

    mcarroll Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    13,040
    Likes Received:
    6,349
    Location:
    Virginia
    ...just haven't heard about CPS/FPS – aka flow velocity. ;) (See: Tunze flow vs turbulence video)

    Too bad it costs >$x,xxx to measure flow velocity.

    Anyone have a used Swoffer 2100 setup for sale? ;)
     
    Dana Riddle likes this.
  13. mcarroll

    mcarroll Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    13,040
    Likes Received:
    6,349
    Location:
    Virginia
    Not quite specific to shading, but so-called flicker light (vs continuous light) apparently has a similar effect on photosynthesis.

    Flicker Light Effects on Photosynthesis of Symbiotic Algae in the Reef- Building Coral Acropora digitifera (Cnidaria: Anthozoa: Scleractinia).
    (emphasis mine)
     
    Dana Riddle likes this.
  14. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Well-Known Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor Expert Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    1,785
    Location:
    Dallas, Georgia
    That's relatively inexpensive. The Marsh-McBirney Flo-Mate 2000 I have was 5 grand when I bought it in the late 90's. That model has been discontinued and its replacement is much more. The clod method only costs a $100 or so, including the purchase of the scale.
     
  15. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Well-Known Member Staff Member R2R Supporter Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor Expert Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    1,785
    Location:
    Dallas, Georgia
    mcarroll likes this.
  16. McMullen

    McMullen Valuable Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2014
    Messages:
    1,336
    Likes Received:
    945
    Location:
    Central Arkansas
    That's great! Certainly makes since. However, once again, this "phenomenon" is in fact taking place in mine and others tanks. My coral is above rock work. There are yellow polyps at the corals bottom edge in constant movement. Therefore, flow in my case, is not the issue. Not even a small part.
     
    mcarroll likes this.
  17. mcarroll

    mcarroll Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    13,040
    Likes Received:
    6,349
    Location:
    Virginia
    Love it!! :) :) Thank you for posting it!!!

    (I suspected you might have one up your sleeve for that. Busy busy! ;))

    For ref (to others), my link is a just reference to a 2008 article on the topic that someone else wrote.

    Dana's is a real article that HE wrote.

    I'm sure I read it back in the day too but gonna have to do a re-read now!
     
    Dana Riddle and chefjpaul like this.
  18. leepink23

    leepink23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2016
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    367
    Location:
    Mississippi
    I tried getting a decent picture of the underside, there is still growth there just not in the one spot, makes me question flow? Also I feed reef refrenzy and apex pellets which have coral food every day. I run a skimmer and scrubber but no other filtration.

    20180103_172813.jpg

    20180103_172551.jpg
     
  19. madweazl

    madweazl Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,921
    Likes Received:
    1,810
    Location:
    Virginia
    Is this like your experience with Joshi's and Paletta's tanks, or yours?
     
  20. alton

    alton Active Member R2R Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Messages:
    436
    Likes Received:
    596
    Location:
    Zuehl, Texas
    I can vouch for JDA, plenty of experience. On the Tunze Wave Box I had the large one on my old 300DD and nothing moves water like it. I dropped a bunch of Coral Frenzy on the opposite side and it was amazing how the fine particles moved across the tank. I use Tunze and Ecotech MP40 /10's power heads and there is/was no comparison. But my frogspawn did not like the movement so I traded it off. Great topic and thanks madweazl for starting this thread.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
Loading...