Is the hobby really fun or simply rewarding if done successfully? Possibly another go tank thread...

Flippers4pups

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Sometimes it's the obvious that gets lost in the din.

It's not so much as "fish can and do jump", I learned this back when I was young and had a goldfish in a bowl or fishing for trout. Kinda obvious.

It's not the tank that's rimless, it's a chance one takes knowing all to well "it's bound to happen". Fish selection and compatibility does factor into this equation. Less aggression, less chance of jumping. Factoring in the environment surrounding the tank and how much activity that takes place close by to the tank, weights into the "startle effect". Notice I said "less". There is no guarantee that a fish wouldn't jump. None. Fish don't know the difference from a rimless from a canopy, from a lid, from a screen.....etc. I have very docile fish in my system. My grandkids make my wrasses "fly" in my canopy once in a blue moon! It's that once in a blue moon is all it takes. Obviously.


Respectfully, calling a tank manufacturer to inform them they should have a lid on their aquarium they sell is a moot point. Respectfully.
 
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Snookin

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Sometimes it's the obvious that gets lost in the din.

It's not so much as "fish can and do jump", I learned this back when I was young and had a goldfish in a bowl or fishing for trout. Kinda obvious.

It's not the tank that's rimless, it's a chance one takes knowing all to well "it's bound to happen". Fish selection and compatibility does factor into this equation. Less aggression, less chance of jumping. Factoring in the environment surrounding the tank and how much activity that takes place close by to the tank, weights into the "startle effect". Notice I said "less". There is no guarantee that a fish wouldn't jump. None. Fish don't know the difference from a rimless from a canopy, from a lid, from a screen.....etc. I have very docile fish in my system. My grandkids make my wrasses "fly" in my canopy once in a blue moon! It's that once in a blue moon is all it takes. Obviously.


Respectfully, calling a tank manufacturer to inform them they should have a lid on their aquarium they sell is a moot point. Respectfully.
The OP obviously was just listening to the advice of a bad LFS only and maybe a few uneducated reefers along the way. Basically, walked into a LFS bought a fish they thought was pretty but their set up wasn’t appropriate for that species and they did it multiple times which is the fact that surprises me. The OPs problems are their own lack of abilities to spend time researching info about the livestock they want to keep. A quick google search of any aquarium fish’s name will usually bring LA up as first link. There it will tell you, minimum tank recommendations, aggression, if you need a TIGHT FITTING lid, etc. Unless the OP decides to do research they will continue to have an ugly tank and kill fish/inverts. Having expensive equipment can’t stop an uneducated reefer from having an ugly tank.
 
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Charley

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Sometimes it's the obvious that gets lost in the din.

It's not so much as "fish can and do jump", I learned this back when I was young and had a goldfish in a bowl or fishing for trout. Kinda obvious.

It's not the tank that's rimless, it's a chance one takes knowing all to well "it's bound to happen". Fish selection and compatibility does factor into this equation. Less aggression, less chance of jumping. Factoring in the environment surrounding the tank and how much activity that takes place close by to the tank, weights into the "startle effect". Notice I said "less". There is no guarantee that a fish wouldn't jump. None. Fish don't know the difference from a rimless from a canopy, from a lid, from a screen.....etc. I have very docile fish in my system. My grandkids make my wrasses "fly" in my canopy once in a blue moon! It's that once in a blue moon is all it takes. Obviously.


Respectfully, calling a tank manufacturer to inform them they should have a lid on their aquarium they sell is a moot point. Respectfully.
I respectfully disagree. I spent a little over 2K on their 450 reefer. At that time they did not offer a lid. Was not like they even had the option or saying you know fish jump out and maybe you should consider a lid. Of course I knew I could lose a few fish. I can honestly say I lost about 8 ish. Fortunately none very expensive and I did keep a fairly harmonious set of fish. Nothing very aggressive by design. so maybe at an avg of 30 each . $240 worth of fish. It's enough to have been an option for Red Sea. As it turned out, they did offer. I had to shop around, got a nice one. But as a consumer who spent a decent amount, I think I had every right to give some feedback. Thanks
 

Flippers4pups

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The OP obviously was just listening to the advice of a bad LFS only and maybe a few uneducated reefers along the way. Basically, walked into a LFS bought a fish they thought was pretty but their set up wasn’t appropriate for that species and they did it multiple times which is the fact that surprises me. The OPs problems are their own lack of abilities to spend time researching info about the livestock they want to keep. A quick google search of any aquarium fish’s name will usually bring LA up as first link. There it will tell you, minimum tank recommendations, aggression, if you need a TIGHT FITTING lid, etc. Unless the OP decides to do research they will continue to have an ugly tank and kill fish/inverts. Having expensive equipment can’t stop an uneducated reefer from having an ugly tank.
Respectfully to your response, we've all done this at some point, including me. When I started out, we didn't have the "internet"! It was books and the LFS. I made plenty of mistakes and no fingers pointed at anyone. All me, no blame except me. Learn from the mistakes and move on. Teach others of my mistakes and others can learn. It's how this hobby has advanced.

Please be respectful and open minded.
 

Snookin

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Respectfully to your response, we've all done this at some point, including me. When I started out, we didn't have the "internet"! It was books and the LFS. I made plenty of mistakes and no fingers pointed at anyone. All me, no blame except me. Learn from the mistakes and move on. Teach others of my mistakes and others can learn. It's how this hobby has advanced.

Please be respectful and open minded.
I am but they’ve been redundant. I have spoken my peace. The OP is trying to blame the hobby for not educating new hobbiest upfront about what it takes to keep a reef tank and I think the hobby does a good job of that with BRS, LA, SA and then the youtube guys out there just to name a few outlets. I think the OP is wrong from that standpoint because they didn’t do research and listening to a LFS they think the hobby doesn’t educate new hobbiest. They are wrong
 

Greg61

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I am a little late to the conversation, but I fully understand the possibility of not loving the hobby. When you invest so much money and so much time and one seemingly innocuous problem cause a cascade of "trauma" to your reef it can cause you to want to just step away from everything. But then I take a look and I see bits of life fighting their way back and it feel the need to see if I can help them along. That one fish that survives a die off, that one piece of coral that did not bleach out. How can I walk away from that. I just have to keep going.
I spent about 5 years reading, researching, visiting LFS, other reefers and major aquariums before I bought the first piece of equipment. Got everything set up and then started changing out equipment for the new stuff, the more efficient stuff, the better stuff. It is a never ending cycle that I am caught up in also. But I love it, even with the sadness that goes along with losing animals you have nurtured.
 

Flippers4pups

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I respectfully disagree. I spent a little over 2K on their 450 reefer. At that time they did not offer a lid. Was not like they even had the option or saying you know fish jump out and maybe you should consider a lid. Of course I knew I could lose a few fish. I can honestly say I lost about 8 ish. Fortunately none very expensive and I did keep a fairly harmonious set of fish. Nothing very aggressive by design. so maybe at an avg of 30 each . $240 worth of fish. It's enough to have been an option for Red Sea. As it turned out, they did offer. I had to shop around, got a nice one. But as a consumer who spent a decent amount, I think I had every right to give some feedback. Thanks
Fair enough, though we will have to agree to disagree, respectfully.

Tank has no lid and fish could jump, find a solution to solve the problem before buying said tank. Done.

I'm not bashing you @Charley, just we have different ways to look at things and that's perfectly okay by me. Hopefully you see things this way too.

I want everyone that endeavors in this hobby to be successful and enjoy their little eco systems in a box. This includes you, me and anyone else. We all have different points of view and this hobby can be done so many different ways. All good. Unfortunately, we are dealing with living animals and well, it's just not an exact science. Wish it was, but then again, if it was that easy the fun of learning and growing wouldn't be the same.
 
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Charley

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Fair enough, though we will have to agree to disagree, respectfully.

Tank has no lid and fish could jump, find a solution to solve the problem before buying said tank. Done.

I'm not bashing you @Charley, just we have different ways to look at things and that's perfectly okay by me. Hopefully you see things this way too.

I want everyone that endeavors in this hobby to be successful and enjoy their little eco systems in a box. This includes you, me and anyone else. We all have different points of view and this hobby can be done so many different ways. All good. Unfortunately, we are dealing with living animals and well, it's just not an exact science. Wish it was, but then again, if it was that easy the fun of learning and growing wouldn't be the same.
Absolutely less than zero problem, Very much appreciate you weighing in. If you were in front of me, I would give you a big hug:)
 
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Charley

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I am but they’ve been redundant. I have spoken my peace. The OP is trying to blame the hobby for not educating new hobbiest upfront about what it takes to keep a reef tank and I think the hobby does a good job of that with BRS, LA, SA and then the youtube guys out there just to name a few outlets. I think the OP is wrong from that standpoint because they didn’t do research and listening to a LFS they think the hobby doesn’t educate new hobbiest. They are wrong
and I respect your opinion. Did my best to make my case best I could. i do think the hobby would be better served if possible to take a more focused , wholistic approach in terms of info for a new hobbyist in terms of chemistry, algae probs and pests.
 
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Jrain904

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and I respect your opinion. Did my best to make my case best I could. i do think the hobby would be better served if possible to take a more focused , wholistic approach in terms of info for a new hobbyist in terms of chemistry, algae probs and pests.
Let me ask you this: In Charley's perfect world how would this look? What is the solution to fix all the woes?
 
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fishybizzness

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For me personally, if there weren't any problems to solve or issues to overcome, I would probably get bored with the hobby. I've had my ups and downs just like everyone else and work hard at overcoming them. The thing I appreciate most about this hobby is that great feeling of accomplishment when I can resolve an issue that I was having! I also love when people come over and just stare at the tank in amazement and comment on how beautiful everything is! That's what makes it fun and rewarding for me!!

20190727_143152.jpg
 

Bleigh

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and I respect your opinion. Did my best to make my case best I could. i do think the hobby would be better served if possible to take a more focused , wholistic approach in terms of info for a new hobbyist in terms of chemistry, algae probs and pests.
I say regularly that I don't know how someone would be successful if they're not on R2R. That being said, many people are not on R2R, yet are successful. I do wonder how they manage this. Trial and error by yourself has to be incredibly frustrating. Combining everyone else's trial and errors reduces the number that everyone makes collectively.

I found this site because I am a compulsive google-r. Places like this, and others (as mentioned above) do provide an incredible wealth of information. The knowledge isn't helpful if someone doesn't know how to find it, but it does exist. How could these places get the attention of new hobbyists who may not be aware that these resources are out there? Would it be reasonable (and fair to other sites) for retailers to put info sheets to communities in their products. I wonder then if they'd be accused of nepotism and the like. It is a question that is worth thinking about.

How do the amazing repositories of reefing knowledge let new hobbyists know that they are there other than allowing them time to find them their self?
 
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Charley

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I am a little late to the conversation, but I fully understand the possibility of not loving the hobby. When you invest so much money and so much time and one seemingly innocuous problem cause a cascade of "trauma" to your reef it can cause you to want to just step away from everything. But then I take a look and I see bits of life fighting their way back and it feel the need to see if I can help them along. That one fish that survives a die off, that one piece of coral that did not bleach out. How can I walk away from that. I just have to keep going.
I spent about 5 years reading, researching, visiting LFS, other reefers and major aquariums before I bought the first piece of equipment. Got everything set up and then started changing out equipment for the new stuff, the more efficient stuff, the better stuff. It is a never ending cycle that I am caught up in also. But I love it, even with the sadness that goes along with losing animals you have nurtured.
Thanks for sharing. I am at the same stage as your first paragraph.
 
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Charley

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Let me ask you this: In Charley's perfect world how would this look? What is the solution to fix all the woes?
Wow, I would be a hypicrite now if I complained not enough ideas for a solution i do not present one. It would be along the order of a DVD or website with a video entitled "Beginners Guide to Reefkeeping" keep it as short as possible , 2 hrs ish . That encompasses not only the set up, but to include the potential trouble spots that can make a tank turn ugly for a few weeks or more whatever that may be. The local shows, groups etc, would have to let the LFS be aware of this DVD and/or youtube video......BRS is great and the likes, but simply too much time perhaps for a newbie or maybe not. I think if a someone is going to get in the hobby and are very aware of the pitfalls it could presented perhaps as the challenge it is rather than a sudden unexpected crash.It is the crash that one is unaware that best be prepared for in terms of the challenge and the hit to asthetics.

Ok everyone, feel free to tear into me once you're done rolling on the floor laughing.....it's all good
 

koralliAgapi

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It's a great post.
But I would say that "fun" is really... a loaded term.
That implies "transience"

Would you ask a painter, "Is it fun?"

Maintaining a reef tank, to me, is like building... designing... improvising... caretaking...

The reward is in the journey... not so much in the "splash" that buying new corals and devices gives me. Yes, there is some "fun" in making new purchases or installing new gadgets, but that's not what reefkeeping means to me. It's not about expanding your collection (even though that's exactly what coral sellers want to sell the hobby as), it's about the journey of living creatures existing and growing in a captive ecosystem.

It's about discovering the unknown in even the smallest scales right in front of my eyes: organisms, life, biology, chemistry...

If someone is "in it for the fun" I would not say they will be "in it for long"
I like that comparison to a painter since I am one - I would not say it was fun painting. Just something I feel like I need to do that brings me immense satisfaction, and is an obsession.
 
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Snookin

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Wow, I would be a hypicrite now if I complained not enough ideas for a solution i do not present one. It would be along the order of a DVD or website with a video entitled "Beginners Guide to Reefkeeping" keep it as short as possible , 2 hrs ish . That encompasses not only the set up, but to include the potential trouble spots that can make a tank turn ugly for a few weeks or more whatever that may be. The local shows, groups etc, would have to let the LFS be aware of this DVD and/or youtube video......BRS is great and the likes, but simply too much time perhaps for a newbie or maybe not. I think if a someone is going to get in the hobby and are very aware of the pitfalls it could presented perhaps as the challenge it is rather than a sudden unexpected crash.It is the crash that one is unaware that best be prepared for in terms of the challenge and the hit to asthetics.

Ok everyone, feel free to tear into me once you're done rolling on the floor laughing.....it's all good
Google: “Beginners Guide to Reef Keeping”
There now. The answer to all your prays. Hundreds of videos from 2mins to 1hr+ on setting up and maintaining a reef. Lol. Dude smh
 
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Charley

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Wow, I would be a hypicrite now if I complained not enough ideas for a solution i do not present one. It would be along the order of a DVD or website with a video entitled "Beginners Guide to Reefkeeping" keep it as short as possible , 2 hrs ish . That encompasses not only the set up, but to include the potential trouble spots that can make a tank turn ugly for a few weeks or more whatever that may be. The local shows, groups etc, would have to let the LFS be aware of this DVD and/or youtube video......BRS is great and the likes, but simply too much time perhaps for a newbie or maybe not. I think if a someone is going to get in the hobby and are very aware of the pitfalls it could presented perhaps as the challenge it is rather than a sudden unexpected crash.It is the crash that one is unaware that best be prepared for in terms of the challenge and the hit to asthetics. I think every "likely" potential problem area should be touched upon, less focus on setup since alot of people may have someone set a tank up anyways and then list the resources for t review for the trouble spots,

Ok everyone, feel free to tear into me once you're done rolling on the floor laughing.....it's all good
 
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Charley

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Google: “Beginners Guide to Reef Keeping”
There now. The answer to all your prays. Hundreds of videos from 2mins to 1hr+ on setting up and maintaining a reef. Lol. Dude smh
ok agree....but it's where the emphasis is put to avoid unrealistic expectations. Alot of the vids share alot of great info. But its the unexpected pitfalls that are not more front and center and I think that's why people leave.

This is not about me. I am 5 yrs in. I simply bared my unhappy, frustrated reefkeeping soul at a low point. I did not have to post a thread. But I saw some concern on why people are leaving. Like it or not, there are real reasons. I just layed out mine. Maybe something good could come out of it, maybe not.
 

Snookin

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@Charley Are you on some cooking forum too complaining that you bought the highest priced cookware and burned all your food? But, when you went to the grocery store no one told you cooking can be difficult and that grocery stores should start handing out “Beginners Guide to Cooking” DVDs.
 
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Charley

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@Charley Are you on some cooking forum too complaining that you bought the highest priced cookware and burned all your food? But, when you went to the grocery store no one told you cooking can be difficult and that grocery stores should start handing out “Beginners Guide to Cooking” DVDs.
No, but I will look into it!
 
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