Is the recommended water change percentage outdated now that we have better filtration?

[mindme]

I know Reef Moonshiners, and I'm pretty sure Andre does not know all the elements, in fact I'm sure he thinks some are superfluous. It's all kinda a big experiment and you guys are the Beta testers

Yeah, I hear this kind of stuff all the time. What I never hear is anyone debating the results of all these "beta tests".

But I already knew your question wasn't genuine to start with.

 

[Karen00]

I think it depends on the type of setup the tank has. I have seen some intricate in/out setups where they probably never need to do a water change. The setups pretty much mimic mother nature. Then you have folks at the opposite end of the spectrum like me... As bare bones as you can get and no dosing. If I don't do my weekly water changes I'm in deep doo doo (not so much my fish but my corals). I should probably do 1% a day instead of a weekly change to keep things more stable. It's probably not so much about filtration as it is replenishment and freshening up of the system via water changes.

 

[Garf]

Moonshiners appear to imply that coral warfare is eliminated by additions of elements above depletion, then goes on to say use lots of activated carbon (300 Grammes per month per 100 U.S.G), because of chemicals zoanthids can release, jeez.

And this;

 

[kerbfish]

I get it. Took all of 20 minutes to cut out my Red Sea xxl750 filter sock section. No big deal at all. Plus I got rid of the valve at the same time. Hardest part was sanding down the piping to fit a standard Union on it, but now they sell handy adaptors for that. It’s nice not having to deal with socks anymore, but it’s a struggle not to keep nitrate and phosphate up. I also ran marine pure balls and brightwell no3 xport bricks before the rollermat. All of which I have since removed. One as my nitrates plummeted, and seeing as I had really high icp aluminum results, which dropped to nothing after they were removed.

So did you have to cut out the entire tray and fiberglass divider that divides the two trays? What did you use to cut it out?

any links to the roller mat model and adaptor you refer to?

 

[mindme]

Moonshiners appear to imply that coral warfare is eliminated by additions of elements above depletion, then goes on to say use lots of activated carbon (300 Grammes per month per 100 U.S.G), because of chemicals zoanthids can release, jeez.

And this;

I'm not sure what your point is here exactly. I didn't see anything that was wrong.

While many people don't do water changes on moonshine method, some still do. It's a personal choice and the method doesn't demand you do either specifically.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

So did you have to cut out the entire tray and fiberglass divider that divides the two trays? What did you use to cut it out?

any links to the roller mat model and adaptor you refer to?

I took out the tray and both glass dividers, I reused one glass divider but moved it into a different position. I started with a utility knife blade but ended up using fishing line for most of it. I used it like dental floss, back and forth with a little pressure to help it along. After the glass was removed I cleaned up the residue with a clean razor blade. Red Sea has a diy kit now that includes a flexible knife. For the fittings, I’m not sure on your model as they used different sizes but BRS, Coral Vue, and many other suppliers have metric to us adaptors, unions, etc. I would think that Red Sea has a kit for the Reef Mat, but if you don’t like the RS valve now would be the time to ditch it and install a gate valve. I run a Clarisea 5000 on my tank and love it. I will say that I did not at first as I mounted it to low in the water as the instructions didn’t mention different at the time. Someone on this forum recommended raising it as high out of the water as possible and it’s worked amazingly since. I did have three issues with it but they took care of them all super quick. The RS unit appears to be solid and knowing how much filter you have left and being notified as soon as it runs out is pretty handy. The Clarisea will alarm after 8 hours or so, and you will also hear it overflowing if you are in the room.

 

[Garf]

I'm not sure what your point is here exactly. I didn't see anything that was wrong.

While many people don't do water changes on moonshine method, some still do. It's a personal choice and the method doesn't demand you do either specifically.

My point was to encourage folk to read the handbook and some inconsistencies, such as maintaining that waterchanges are bad because folks don’t mix up salt for a few days prior to waterchanges, which shocks the system. Here is the advised way to increasing salinity elsewhere in the handbook;

 

[CoralB]

Because there are things we don’t test for, even with icp. Those things either get depleted or accumulate, which is why a wc makes most tanks look much better…for a while.

Spot on answer !!!

 

[Jeffcb]

yep

 

[Garf]

I'm not sure what your point is here exactly. I didn't see anything that was wrong.

While many people don't do water changes on moonshine method, some still do. It's a personal choice and the method doesn't demand you do either specifically.

Here’s another;

So folks choose to run calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate for example, where is all that chloride and sodium going, I think nowhere.

 

[DavidinGA]

I'm in the zero wc club.

I run a diy ats and it strips my water of no3/po4 so aggressively I can only run it sparingly.

 

[mindme]

My point was to encourage folk to read the handbook and some inconsistencies, such as maintaining that waterchanges are bad because folks don’t mix up salt for a few days prior to waterchanges, which shocks the system. Here is the advised way to increasing salinity elsewhere in the handbook;

Not the way I would change my salinity, but not sure what the big deal is.

Here’s another;

So folks choose to run calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate for example, where is all that chloride and sodium going, I think nowhere.

Sodium and Chloride show up in the ICP tests, here are mine after 1.5 years.

Mine stay pretty steady, pretty sure the movements here are just from testing margin of errors.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Not the way I would change my salinity, but not sure what the big deal is.



Sodium and Chloride show up in the ICP tests, here are mine after 1.5 years.

Mine stay pretty steady, pretty sure the movements here are just from testing margin of errors.

I guess the point is that there is no magic involved with the Reef moonshiners method, but plenty of inconsistencies which make no sense, such as the two that @Garf pointed out.

To be honest I read the manual, rolled my eyes, and turned the printout into notepads.

Certainly it can work (as will any other such as triton), if you are experienced enough to understand the limitations of the method - but it's no path to a water change less future.

To be fair, Andre does point that out in the guide.

 

[mindme]

I guess the point is that there is no magic involved with the Reef moonshiners method, but plenty of inconsistencies which make no sense, such as the two that @Garf pointed out.

To be honest I read the manual, rolled my eyes, and turned the printout into notepads.

Certainly it can work (as will any other such as triton), if you are experienced enough to understand the limitations of the method - but it's no path to a water change less future.

To be fair, Andre does point that out in the guide.

This meme below(I found the nicest version I could) is basically all I see from you and others when this topic comes up. I'm not even sure how I can take people serious when the things they are "pointing out" are such minor details.

Like who really cares how someone increases their salinity? And why are you some of you so determined to find a fault, to the point where you are harping on such minor things?

Do you have anything real or useful to add to the discussion?

At any rate, no water changes has nothing to do with moonshiners directly, it's just a method for replacing trace elements. I've been doing no water changes longer than I've been doing moonshiners method. It's merely just how I replace my trace elements.

You still have to remove nutrients and do other things to keep things going, and that is regardless of what method someone is using to replenish their trace elements.

You know why you don't hear more about people doing it? Because it's so hostile anytime someone mentions it here that they literally go to other communities to discuss it. I'd been looking for something exactly like this for awhile and didn't even know it existed because people keep it a secret that they do it.

It's impossible to have a legitimate discussion about these things here.

 

[Forty-Two]

Im slowly reducing mine. With a new tank I think it likely makes sense to have more water changes in the early stages - perhaps in the first 3 months, but after that you can slowly taper them down depending on how the tank is doing.

Previously I was at 10% every 2 weeks, and then it slowly changed to 10% every month. Now Im around 10% every 2 months. Soon Ill drop it to 3 and so on and continue to monitor closely.

Im starting to become an advocate however of no skimmer for the first 6 months, as I have a theory based on my battle with Dino's that it negatively impacts bacteria culture....but I think that's a separate discussion

 

[Garf]

Not the way I would change my salinity, but not sure what the big deal is.



Sodium and Chloride show up in the ICP tests, here are mine after 1.5 years.

Mine stay pretty steady, pretty sure the movements here are just from testing margin of errors.

Are you skimming out the excess salt, perhaps?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sodium and Chloride show up in the ICP tests, here are mine after 1.5 years.

Both are elevated relative to 35 ppt seawater.

One cannot tell how elevated they are or not relative to other ions without seeing sulfate.

 

[DavidinGA]

Im starting to become an advocate however of no skimmer....but I think that's a separate discussion

Fixed that for ya.

 

[mindme]

Both are elevated relative to 35 ppt seawater.

One cannot tell how elevated they are or not relative to other ions without seeing sulfate.

Sulfur is as close to sulfate as it gets in testing.

And here is the salinity reading, slightly elevated but not out of range.



This is what will actually cause me to do some water changes soon if the next test comes back elevated. I'm not even sure what the source is, I don't dose it. Must be something in the tank corroding, but I just replaced a bunch of stuff getting out the aluminum recently. I bought a new titanium heater from BRS is the only source I can think of, but it's not corroding. My nickel is also a tiny bit high, but not as concerning as this:



Next test goes in the mail tomorrow(triton test rather than ATI, I have 3 tests left over from a sale), so i'm crossing my fingers I don't have to do water changes to address it. But I will if it comes to that. It'll take 3 water changes to get it below 100.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

You shouldn't. And being shot down? That is the ignorance speaking.... here in Holland it is much more common not to do waterchanges. And yes changing the game does take time. Just go with what you believe in, despite what others think.

4,5 years old. 0 waterchanges.

after yearly trim

Are you the reefer with the husky on Instagram ?
I swear I’ve seen this set up before