Is there any real benefit to full spectrum lighting?

KonradTO

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I think coral depth and environment play a large part. A shallow water acro that’s found in less than 5m of water is going to have different requirements than a coral found in 45m of water. However, we put shallow water acros in blue heavy tanks all of the time. I am not aware of and published papers showing different rates of growth.
There is a paper on coral growth at different light spectra (blue only, white only, mix) and basically as far as I remember corals grow in any light but were growing slightly better under full spectrum. The difference was quite negligible though so basically they grow anyway at similar rate, its just up to what you like, they will adapt.
I will try to find the link, hope I find it
 
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Lasse

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Has anyone done an experiment with full spectrum and actinic in regards to nuisance algae and cyano growth?

Here is my noon spectra with 3 pcs GHL Mitras LED bars 120 deep actinic and one 120 actinic.

1653462081606.png



And here is my tank (two days ago) 4K. No manipulation with the video according filters or light regime.


Sincerely Lasse
 

Shooter6

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Again who decided it was about acros?
Clarifying your posted links. Since you tried to show coral growth depths ect. I mean you might as well have posted coral growth graphs at 800 meters after all theres a lot of nps coral reefs down at that depth, but those are not commonly kept either.
 
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Shooter6

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Here is my noon spectra with 3 pcs GHL Mitras LED bars 120 deep actinic and one 120 actinic.

1653462081606.png



And here is my tank (two days ago) 4K. No manipulation with the video according filters or light regime.


Sincerely Lasse
A little whiter then mine at mid day. I plan to add some white to get it closer to yours.
 

Lasse

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A little whiter then mine at mid day. I plan to add some white to get it closer to yours
A tip - test with some simple RGB strips before adding more "white LEDs" RGB will trick your eyes to see a whiter shade of pale and do not change the photosynthetic spectra to much. As you can see in my morning video - is mostly my RGB chips that works

Sincerely Lasse
 

Shooter6

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A tip - test with some simple RGB strips before adding more "white LEDs" RGB will trick your eyes to see a whiter shade of pale and do not change the photosynthetic spectra to much. As you can see in my morning video - is mostly my RGB chips that works

Sincerely Lasse
What lights are those? I was considering bars or some mh supplements
 

ZombieEngineer

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I’m curious, if the blue spectrum is superior and the other spectrums can inhibit growth, why do we see so much more thick and diverse coral coverage at shallow depths than we do at say, 80 feet? Shouldn’t we see the thickest and healthiest coral coverage where the blue spectrum shines alone/ Where the red spectrum isn’t inhibiting growth?

I think it’s clear the majority of the photosynthetic corals definitely prefer the shallow waters.
There is way less PAR at deeper depths hence less coral. If you actually read the write-up I linked and the associated studies it shows that the spectrum found near the surface of the water is not optimal. You get increased photosynthesis if you add blue and you get higher par before bleaching if you remove some red.
 

jda

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For those who don't know, Lasse has posted a lot of convincing evidence that green is used to penetrate tissue and deeper to provide energy in places that other light cannot reach... among other things.

As for macro algae, it will thrive in nearly any light conditions and the availability of nitrate and phosphate is higher number, which they can use directly, is more of a factor.

Nearly everybody would benefit from running more of a full spectrum like Lasse does... then if you want to pop stuff in the evenings or for your friends, the change it to more blue. Dr. Joshi is another that has a nice tank with lots of full spectrum. I hate comparing vendors to hobbyists, but Adam at BC does and so does therman, who while vendors are more like hobbyists. Do any of you extolling the virtues of heavy blue tanks have tanks that do as well as any of these people? If so, I would truly like to study your tank and I will be reading your build thread. All that I see is stuff like "Jason Fox uses blue only T5s even though those T5s are pretty full spectrum" or "this or that article says pigments XYZ excites here for some or another reason." I don't see successes with blue-only tanks and the few that have tried have been failures. I am sure that there is one or two and I want to read about them to try and glean some nuance, but they are still outliers.

Not sure the majority of corals prefer shallow water.

You still need to do better. There are very few corals from the mesophotic zone that we keep in the hobby. You don't even need to reef to know this - google should have been able to handle this for you if you looked hard enough. The ones that are kept and can crossover are rarely collected from there.

I am not much of a googler, and I found these in about ten seconds... one specific to the hobby and one more general. I am sure that you see these things and just decide not to post them if I am a dummy and can find them.

However, it did give me an appreciation of what the divers have to go through in order to find the corals coveted by the hobby. This is especially true now as I cannot recall the last time I saw a brown sps coral of any type. As I noted, most of the divers do not work with scuba gear, so this restricts most collecting to the top 20-30 feet of the reef. Once a desired coral is found, and only small colonies or sections of a large colony are now collected, it is chiseled from the reef and brought up to the boat.

-or-

Corals are found across the world’s ocean, in both shallow and deep water, but reef-building corals are only found in shallow tropical and subtropical waters.

To add in some nuance, reef-building corals are hard algae and anything that leaves a permanent skeleton... so coralline, LPS and SPS in our hobby. There are some "hard" corals that do not leave permanent skeleton, but let's leave those alone since they rarely are kept.

I know that you are not going to have a reef, or even get out and see where these things are collected from, which is easy and they will gladly take you with them, but you could use your powers for good and pay attention to all of the nuance and not miss that reefs in Hawaii are not what we keep, nor mesophotic corals. ...or just believe me that 10m is pretty much the limit like I have said too many times to count - you could just search and copy/paste my posts if it makes you feel better to still link to things.
 
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Shooter6

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There is way less PAR at deeper depths hence less coral. If you actually read the write-up I linked and the associated studies it shows that the spectrum found near the surface of the water is not optimal. You get increased photosynthesis if you add blue and you get higher par before bleaching if you remove some red.
What you posted has nothing to do with light, it had to do with water temp changes triggering bleaching.

That's the problem with graphs. Secondly there are many nps corals at bone crushing depths and all the way up to the ps coral range. They are not common in the hobby but are still very much out there. Lastly most of the corals in the hobby are collected by skin divers, diving down on a breath of air, same with most fish. At these depths full spectrum light is what the corals receive, not heavy blues like you think. Next time your at a clear lake, deep river or ocean jump in and swim down. Then your misconceptions will be eliminated.

flower garden reef here off the coast of Texas, which is quite deep for most gulf of Mexico reefs is getting full spectrum leaning towards the blue as you go down from the top of the rock mounds. It plunges to 750ft. The top is at about 20m from the water surface.
 

Lasse

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What lights are those? I was considering bars or some mh supplements

For those who don't know, Lasse has posted a lot of convincing evidence that green is used to penetrate tissue and deeper to provide energy in places that other light cannot reach... among other things.
Repost

Another question – is green light important for the growth rate and photosynthesis? It’s true that there is no type of chlorophyll that peak at these wavelengths we call green and that a green plant is green because the photons is reflected. But its also known that there are co-systems that can pick up different wavelengths and transfer them to usable quanta so green is maybe not the most effective wavelengths but in some way, they are linked to the photosynthesis. Its known – from terrestrial plants that green can penetrate rather deep in the tissue and hence provide some help for the photosynthesis in deeper layer.

There is also some prove for green photons can go trough leaves and hence make some photosynthesis rather low in the canopy. I got an idea – I can test that. I took my headlight (a strong phosphorus coated white LED) and hold it above a rather thick green leave from one of my wife's potted plants. The result you can see in the pictures below. From the upper side – there is reflecting many green photons – because the green colour of the leaf.

test1.jpg
But how its look on the backside of the leaf – there is no light or reflected green photons there. If all photons are reflected (green) or absorbed (all others) it should be black on the backside. If the backside has any colour in this experiment – it means that the photons of that special wavelengths (read colour) has travel through the leaf – look self for the result.

test2.jpg
I have never, ever before proved a theory so easy as I did in this case. Green photons can travel through plants cells in a way that others do not! It means that leaves further down in a tree can use green wavelengths – the red and blue is already absorbed.

Has this importance’s for stony corals – I think so. If it can travel down in a cell structure – it can work in the deeper layers and be reflected of the white skeleton.

Sincerely Lasse
 

oreo5457

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I do apologize for sometimes mixing "nature" with "tank" populations..
But to collecting..
At 3M the light is approx 9000k and shifted to blue/green

3mreef.JPG


main-qimg-fdf71c6db17eaf18a97f26fe1725407b-pjlq



At your "collecting" depths the corals are already in a blue/green centric environment..
Stop at light blue.. ;)

Corals are found across the world’s ocean, in both shallow and deep water, but reef-building corals are only found in shallow tropical and subtropical waters.
Needs the definition of "shallow" in terms of the ocean. ;)

Then collected corals may be grown under gosh knows what type of spectrum, fragged under also gosh knows what type of spectrum and then sold..

From collection to transport to grow out to frag it has "adapted" to it's new environment.

Honesty, I would prefer "fuller spectrum" for any tank of any kind since none would not have pure animals involved.. BUT that is a personal choice.
 
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jda

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All of you people who think that you know it all from reading and posting links should do yourselves a favor and not try and discount Green since it is based in terrestrial plants. Trust this guy over what you read since he knows more than you, reefs more than you and really studies and pay attention to his craft likely more than you, as well. It is very likely that if you ever gain the same level of experience as @Lasse has, then you will agree with all/most of these conclusions.
 

oreo5457

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in most tanks? most of it, some red/greens/etc get taken out, but not a massive amount.
Depends on the light (and settings) for example.
20000k "looks" white due to green/amber spikes plus blue (RGB)
Most "colors" below say 5% are pretty useless.


journalsnapshot4-1-png.612199


Reds can and do attenuate a lot even in shallow tanks (24" or so)
Buildmyled (Fluence, Osram whatever) spectrum see attenuation charts.
10kfix.jpg
 
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djf91

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There is way less PAR at deeper depths hence less coral. If you actually read the write-up I linked and the associated studies it shows that the spectrum found near the surface of the water is not optimal. You get increased photosynthesis if you add blue and you get higher par before bleaching if you remove some red.
Then why do the branches of Acropora species grow upwards almost to the point of breaking the waters surface? Wouldn’t it benefit them to grow downwards away from this suboptimal “red zone”?
 

SlugSnorter

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Then why do the branches of Acropora species grow upwards almost to the point of breaking the waters surface? Wouldn’t it benefit them to grow downwards away from this suboptimal “red zone”?
because they evolved close to the surface. Different corals need different conditions. Deeper corals usually want want more blues and less reds than shallower ones.
 

jda

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One more thing about @Lasse... I have really learned a lot from his posts and even some links and wish that I could read multiple languages (stupid American). He really has some good stuff that I had to run through translate, but never could have found in a search. Pay attention when he posts and take the time, if necessary, to translate or otherwise dive in - he does not post a bunch, but it is usually gold when he does. Courtney Aldrich, Bingman, Christoph, Dr. RHF are among this list too.
 
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oreo5457

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All of you people who think that you know it all from reading and posting links should do yourselves a favor and not try and discount Green since it is based in terrestrial plants. Trust this guy over what you read since he knows more than you, reefs more than you and really studies and pay attention to his craft likely more than you, as well. It is very likely that if you ever gain the same level of experience as @Lasse has, then you will agree with all/most of these conclusions.
Who's arguing against green?

Actually Lasses "RGB" is not "full spectrum" in the sense of sunlight anyways.
From what I've read about Lasse he and I (on an academic level) agree.

Certainly I've "pushed" at least cyan (green blue) based on the Peridian/Chl a complex in zoos.. See absorption spectrum and... better color rendering..;)

Tried to convince "some people" that adding lime/pcamber was a much better choice than adding "white"


Thing is.. it's a matter of choice individually for looks in particular.
 
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oreo5457

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Then why do the branches of Acropora species grow upwards almost to the point of breaking the waters surface? Wouldn’t it benefit them to grow downwards away from this suboptimal “red zone”?
"Morphology" effects are tricky but one thing is pretty standard.. If you grow a cylinder straight up you have less surface area during peak irradiation then if you are growing horizontal.

It is actually protective while still growing for maximum intensity.

A terrestrial example.
It's the same with plants: horizontal leaves are really good at absorbing light (especially in low light conditions) but are more easily damaged by the sun, while vertical leaves (like grass) function better in high amounts of sunlight and aren't as easily harmed by it.

For corals see plating and encrusting vs sticks..
 

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