Is there any real benefit to full spectrum lighting?

Shooter6

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I worked for a grow store when I was going to college and it was the same arguments you see here about MH vs LED except for horticulture it was HPS vs Red/Blue LED vs full spectrum LED.

As far as pure growth was concerned, the HPS and full spectrum white actually performed worse per watt than the red/blue only with HPS being the worst. The best was if I remember correctly 25% W 25% blue and 50% red. It was real easy to AB cause they could use the same water, same room, same everything except for lighting and find out in a matter of weeks, not many months like with coral. The reason for this was red was the best for plant photosynthesis, but blue was necessary for stalk growth, and the white was only there so that workers could identify health issues with the plants that were drowned out if you have a sea of pink/purple. It did not improve growth per watt because the phosphor coating was less efficient than the blue and red leds in converting to PAR.

But you show the studies that LED increased plant mass increased by the same amount in 400W of LED that was done in 1000W of HPS or 800W of MH, they would pull the same lines that the MH diehards preach today. Things like "I've been doing this for 30 years and I know I grow more than your LEDs" without ever trying them or doing an AB test or "I switched from 5000W of halides to 2000W of leds and I got 10% less than I did on my last crop". Kind of like the typical "I replaced 250W halide with 200W of t5 with a single radion and my corals don't grow as well as they did before" without factoring in they are now giving their corals 30% less par than before and using 40% the wattage, but those who replaced 500W of MH and 400W of T5 with 3 radions saw similar growth at 60% the wattage.
Your attempting to turn this into another led vs mh conversation, BUT IT IS NOT THAT. We are discussing benefits of full spectrum which can include led lighting. Please keep this o. Topic so it doesn't get shut down like all the others.
 

GARRIGA

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I worked for a grow store when I was going to college and it was the same arguments you see here about MH vs LED except for horticulture it was HPS vs Red/Blue LED vs full spectrum LED.

As far as pure growth was concerned, the HPS and full spectrum white actually performed worse per watt than the red/blue only with HPS being the worst. The best was if I remember correctly 25% W 25% blue and 50% red. It was real easy to AB cause they could use the same water, same room, same everything except for lighting and find out in a matter of weeks, not many months like with coral. The reason for this was red was the best for plant photosynthesis, but blue was necessary for stalk growth, and the white was only there so that workers could identify health issues with the plants that were drowned out if you have a sea of pink/purple. It did not improve growth per watt because the phosphor coating was less efficient than the blue and red leds in converting to PAR.

But you show the studies that LED increased plant mass increased by the same amount in 400W of LED that was done in 1000W of HPS or 800W of MH, they would pull the same lines that the MH diehards preach today. Things like "I've been doing this for 30 years and I know I grow more than your LEDs" without ever trying them or doing an AB test or "I switched from 5000W of halides to 2000W of leds and I got 10% less than I did on my last crop". Kind of like the typical "I replaced 250W halide with 200W of t5 with a single radion and my corals don't grow as well as they did before" without factoring in they are now giving their corals 30% less par than before and using 40% the wattage, but those who replaced 500W of MH and 400W of T5 with 3 radions saw similar growth at 60% the wattage.
If I read correctly, you agree that full spectrum will work but at a higher wattage. In other words, as long as the required PAR/PUR is provided than the plants will grow.

Family member grows medial marajuana and has switched from the horticultural blurple lights to full spectrum and getting great results although less efficiently.
 

ZombieEngineer

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If I read correctly, you agree that full spectrum will work but at a higher wattage. In other words, as long as the required PAR/PUR is provided than the plants will grow.

Family member grows medial marajuana and has switched from the horticultural blurple lights to full spectrum and getting great results although less efficiently.
Dead on. Corals have some differences to plants because they can expell their zooxanthellae, they have different chloraphyll that peaks over blue not red like plants, and coloration is important in addition to growth. If it's purely about growth or mass, at equal PAR the growth was pretty much the same but MUCH lower wattage for reds to get the same PAR.
 

oreo54

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Family member grows medial marajuana and has switched from the horticultural blurple lights to full spectrum and getting great results although less efficiently.
Cannabis is a par monster. It can take anything you throw at it..

Plants utilize all the spectrum. Green included which can penetrate deeper into the canopy of leaves.

Oddly enough there seems to be talk of yellow as well but no capturing pigments have been found.

Blurple is dead Jim..

UV induces more aromatics in cannabis.

For some plants IR can relieve over burdened photosynthesis.

Terrestrial plants are generally not CO2 (carbon) constrained.

Point is they are very different than corals.

Using green leds would be a bit inefficent due to the " green droop".
That is the reason lumileds developed " lime" a blue pump green phosphor-ed led.
White leds are fine.

Now that being said ..
Full spectrum or blue centric both work.

Some just want to split hairs.

Whiter tank or bluer tank is really more of a look thing.
What one gains or loses in growth/ color or whatever should be made up in visual enjoyment.

One philosophy is to grow what your tank will grow, ignore what it can't.
Even experts have a hard time with species that another expert grows just fine.
 

jda

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I have valued a few weed businesses over the years and one lately. Anybody who thinks that they use heavy blue spectrum or even LED is misinformed. With the subject and the almost 20 comps that I investigated, all of them used sunlight when they could and HPS, MV or MH in the 4300 to 5500 range for those that even knew (talked to a few who had no idea what bulbs their businesses used). Some had some of the true dual-arcs with HPS and MH in one bulb. These places have millions on the line and I can assure you that nobody that I talked to would not have changed spectrum in a minute if they could have made a $10000 more. None of this matters, though, since it is so different from corals. In Colorado, heat from lights save money from using natural gas or propane heat, so it is a blessing (it is in my reef tank too). Why does this matter? Electrical cost is a big factor in profitability... and they get electric cheaper than you and I with many having half a dozen 440-480v supply lines.

I made a call to an organic herb place that sells super expensive oregano, mint, thyme, rosemary, and you name it to boutiques for people who are super crazy about pesticides and fertilizers. They used those heavy red lights for a while, but are back to T5 HO. I could not find another similar business, so this could be small sample size. Lots of similar places grow only in the summer outside.

I do think that we can learn some things from terrestrial plants, but the hippie lettuce, corn, high canopy trees or other things designed for full-out sunlight that seem to have no limit to what they can take have not been the best in the past. It is kinda a shame because some of these are well studied.
 

Shooter6

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Dead on. Corals have some differences to plants because they can expell their zooxanthellae, they have different chloraphyll that peaks over blue not red like plants, and coloration is important in addition to growth. If it's purely about growth or mass, at equal PAR the growth was pretty much the same but MUCH lower wattage for reds to get the same PAR.
In other threads I posted links to videos from coral farmers who explain that the mh or t5 (full spectrum) is used for growth by them and blue heavy for the color enhancements
 

ZombieEngineer

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In other threads I posted links to videos from coral farmers who explain that the mh or t5 (full spectrum) is used for growth by them and blue heavy for the color enhancements
That makes absolutely zero sense from a biological perspective unless you mean for color perception and not actual color changes in the Coral (exception being blue corals like Oregon tort).

Coral color is developed as a type of sunscreen against spectrums they do not particularly like. You give a red coral a little more red, they become a deeper red. You give a green coral a little more green they become a deeper green. Adding blues makes colors pop more but will only enhance near blue coloration.

This is the same reason plants are green. They use it to naturally filter out the greens and yellows of full spectrum sunlight so that photosynthesis can be maximized with the more red and blue part of the spectrum.

Coral coloration is arguably the best reason to use full spectrum lighting, because this guarantees that whatever color the coral needs to block out with their sunscreen will be present to help it color more deeply.
 

Shooter6

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That makes absolutely zero sense from a biological perspective unless you mean for color perception and not actual color changes in the Coral (exception being blue corals like Oregon tort).

Coral color is developed as a type of sunscreen against spectrums they do not particularly like. You give a red coral a little more red, they become a deeper red. You give a green coral a little more green they become a deeper green. Adding blues makes colors pop more but will only enhance near blue coloration.

This is the same reason plants are green. They use it to naturally filter out the greens and yellows of full spectrum sunlight so that photosynthesis can be maximized with the more red and blue part of the spectrum.

Coral coloration is arguably the best reason to use full spectrum lighting, because this guarantees that whatever color the coral needs to block out with their sunscreen will be present to help it color more deeply.
I do not know why this makes zero sense to you lol. Have you been around this hobby very long?

It's widely known that under 65k mh that acros grow like weeds, they look brown.

Those same acro moved to blue heavy leds and blue /actinic t5 will develop crazy colors that everyone craves.
This is what they mean.

Hopefully this explains it in a way you can make sense of.
 

oreo54

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Shooter6

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Here's one to think on.

On reefs in the wild, the bulk of branching sps are found in the shallows, full spectrum light. This is where they choose to live, the spawned eggs that settle in these areas have the highest survival and grow into colonies.

If this is the case, doesn't it make sense that the full spectrum light is what THEY prefer?
The blue heavy spectrum we stuck them in in our reefs is not their choice, but ours, and they adapt to and survive in, or die.
 

ZombieEngineer

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I do not know why this makes zero sense to you lol. Have you been around this hobby very long?
I've been doing saltwater for almost a decade and am one of the foremost experts on aquarium automation in the hobby. I am the same Zombie as the one on Neptune forums.
 

Shooter6

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Long read lol. I'm at the part about coral source from Aquaculture facility.

2 things that may be answered deeper in but ill point out now.
This is about heat induced bleaching

And blue light only not full spectrum which this conversation is based on right?
 

Shooter6

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I've been doing saltwater for almost a decade and am one of the foremost experts on aquarium automation in the hobby. I am the same Zombie as the one on Neptune forums.
Ahh so really a newbie haha. Sorry but I've been in it since 1988, way before any automation was around. Way back when most of our gear was homemade. Things like mini fridges with buckets full of high salinity water. A hose connected to a pump in that bucket pumping water up through the freezer section and back into the bucket. A second hose coiled inside the bucket that had tank water pumped through for cooling.

Mh lights
Wet dry trickle filters ect lol. Hope that doesn't offend you. I'm glad you found a way to build a carrier in the hobby.
 

Shooter6

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I've been doing saltwater for almost a decade and am one of the foremost experts on aquarium automation in the hobby. I am the same Zombie as the one on Neptune forums.
Hopefully the rest of that post helped you to comprehend what I was saying.....
 

oreo54

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Long read lol. I'm at the part about coral source from Aquaculture facility.

2 things that may be answered deeper in but ill point out now.
This is about heat induced bleaching

And blue light only not full spectrum which this conversation is based on right?
Fig 1 has errors. Excitation and emission legend is reversed
Emission spectra peaked at ~492 nm (LF morph) and ~495 nm...excitation spectrum ranging from ~350–500 nm with maxima at ~420, 443, and 473 nm
 

Shooter6

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Fig 1 has errors. Excitation and emission legend is reversed
Understanding that mistake, but in the end blue light was only used for the testing correct? Not full spectrum. And light was a secondary stressor, heat being the main one
 

oreo54

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Understanding that mistake, but in the end blue light was only used for the testing correct? Not full spectrum. And light was a secondary stressor, heat being the main one
Intensity of blue light .
No heat was constant .
"The water temperature was kept constant at ~25°C."

The heat aspect was just a " multiplier" so to speak in nature
Dual damage from heat and light stress in the corals.
Then add "The susceptibility of corals to heat and light stress-induced bleaching is increased by unfavorable levels of nutrients in the water"
Afaict.

Study only investigated blue light stress ( high to low) between 2 variants in fluorescent pigment
content.

Interesting part was the better growth overall with medium blue light regardless of the variant.

......changing the light intensities of blue LEDs gradually from ~150 μmol photons m−2s−1 to reach final photon fluxes of 1,100 μmol m−2s−1 (high light treatment), 300 μmol m−2s−1 medium light treatment), and 10 μmol m−2s−1 (low light treatment).
 
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Shooter6

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Intensity of blue light .
No heat was constant .
"The water temperature was kept constant at ~25°C."

The heat aspect was just a " multiplier" so to speak in nature
Dual damage from heat and light stress in the corals.
Then add "The susceptibility of corals to heat and light stress-induced bleaching is increased by unfavorable levels of nutrients in the water"
Afaict.

Study only investigated blue light stress ( high to low) between 2 variants in fluorescent pigment
content.
I guess I wasn't clear. The bleaching they talk about in the intro was heat induced. The corals in the wild are adapted to the light they live in. That was a constant so not a true stressor. Instead the change ( stressor) that triggered bleaching was an increase in temperature.

Again they focused on only blue light. Intensity, not the full spectrum the corals live in naturally. For all they know the additional spectrums could trigger protective reactions by corals to intense light. That experiment while interviewing has little to no bearing on the topic of full spectrum light and coral health.
 

oreo54

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Well yea they don' t compare blue vs fs but your other assumptions aren't really valid . You assume high full spectrum light is not a stressor...it is.
Afaict at high full spectrum light levels most corals go into " shutdown" mode to avoid more damage so yes they are adapted to it but it is not err ideal.
And natures light field is continually variable so the stress is intermittent.

Combine high light stress with rising water temps and you bleach easier.
 
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