Is This Ich?

[tmRoth]

#fishmedic

I'm afraid I know the answer, as I've already read several other "is this ich?" threads, but I'm not sure because the white spots in the photo below aren't visible to the naked eye (or to mine, anyway). I thought I may have seen a very tiny spot or two, which got me thinking about ich, but was hoping they could just be natural markings on the RG. I know that closeup photos can make ordinary things look different, and there could be some reflection from the flashlight I shined on the RG, so I'm asking for expert advice on this photo.

Background: Royal gramma and six-line wrasse brought home 15 days ago, given freshwater dip, then treated with General Cure (48 hours between doses, then carbon & partial water change 48 hrs after 2nd dose) and put into 10-gallon QT. Both fish have been very active and had great appetites up through last night.

This morning, both fish stayed in hiding until mid-morning, which they never did after the first couple of days in the QT. I posted this morning about a white sack hanging off of the wrasse, but that dropped off soon after posting, and the wrasse has been active and eating ever since.

The RG, however, has spent the day tucked in below the filter sponge (a space between the bottom of the sponge and the top of the filter base). A few times it has darted out, did a couple of twitches, and then darted right back under the sponge. When it has come out, it's usually been when I put a bit of food in the tank. It seems interested in food, but doesn't eat - maybe because it goes right back into hiding.

I've watch it a lot and it's breathing normally and doesn't have it's mouth open. It doesn't seem lethargic, and I can tell that my being up close makes it nervous. As someone mentioned in my earlier post about the wrasse, there could be some aggression anxiety, but through yesterday the RG and the wrasse got along fine, swimming together and showing no food aggression. That's a lot of information, but I'm providing it in case this is not ich.

Ammonia badge did not show an alert, although API test showed 0.5 ppm this morning so I did a 25% water change.
Temperature = 78 degrees
Salinity = 35 ppt

 

[SlugSnorter]

#fishmedic


I would lean towards ich, although lets see what the others have to say

 

[LiLinka]

Looks like ich. Not 100% sure though. It definitely has some sort of infection Or parasite. Also putting in the fact you said it’s not eating I would quarantine it in coppersafe for 1-2 weeks as soon as you can before it spreads to other fish.

 

[SlugSnorter]

Looks like ich. Not 100% sure though. It definitely has some sort of infection Or parasite. Also putting in the fact you said it’s not eating I would quarantine it in coppersafe for 1-2 weeks as soon as you can before it spreads to other fish.

The other fish in the QT is almost certainly infected too.

 

[LiLinka]

I would just treat them with coppersafe

 

[SlugSnorter]

I would just treat them with coppersafe

+1 to this.

 

[tmRoth]

I would just treat them with coppersafe

Thanks. Looks like the only thing I can find locally tonight is API Liquid Super Ick Cure. Would this do the same thing, or should I wait until I can get Coppersafe? If I have to order that, it won't be here until Friday.

EDIT: I do have a bottle of Coppersafe, but it has a June 2016 expiration date.

 

[SlugSnorter]

Thanks. Looks like the only thing I can find locally tonight is API Liquid Super Ick Cure. Would this do the same, or should I wait until I can get Coppersafe? If I have to order that, it won't be here until Friday.

I'm not sure how effective it will be. You want to use something with copper, and "Liquid Super Ick Cure" is basically a solution of malachite green with some other anti-biotics.


I would get the coppersafe or similar product

 

[tmRoth]

Thanks, everyone, for the responses. It's been just 2-1/2 hours since my original post, but the white spots are now easily visible without needing a closeup photo and there are a lot more of them. I never realized ich advanced so quickly. The latest photo is below.

I found a local store where I can pick up some Coppersafe tomorrow. I ordered a Hanna copper checker but it won't be delivered until Saturday. I'll go ahead and dose tomorrow to keep the ich in check. I'll use an API test kit that I already have to be sure I don't overdose, then increase if needed on Saturday when I get the Hanna.

 

[LiLinka]

DO NOT add coppersafe to your tank with corals in it. add it to a separate quarantine tank with just the infected fish and some simple structures for them to hide in like a PVC pipe.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

If you know the exact volume of your tank's water (not the tank's rated capacity) you can add Coppersafe close to a full dose without a test kit, and then finesse the dose up to full when the Hanna checker arrives.

The full dose is 5 ml (1 tsp) per 4 U.S. gallons (15 L), so if you added 4 ml per 4 gallons of actual water volume in your tank, that will get the treatment started. If you don't know the exact volume, I can help you estimate that - you need to know the inside length x width x height of the water in inches. Divide that by 231. You need to factor in any water displaced by decorations (should be minimal in a treatment tank).

Jay

 

[tmRoth]

If you know the exact volume of your tank's water (not the tank's rated capacity) you can add Coppersafe close to a full dose without a test kit, and then finesse the dose up to full when the Hanna checker arrives.

The full dose is 5 ml (1 tsp) per 4 U.S. gallons (15 L), so if you added 4 ml per 4 gallons of actual water volume in your tank, that will get the treatment started. If you don't know the exact volume, I can help you estimate that - you need to know the inside length x width x height of the water in inches. Divide that by 231. You need to factor in any water displaced by decorations (should be minimal in a treatment tank).

Jay

Thanks, Jay. It's a 10-gallon tank but calculates out to 8.4 gallons using inside dimensions and water height like you suggested. Subtracting out the sponge filter, container of sand for the wrasse, heater, etc., I was going to use 8 gallons. That's a little on the low side but will be close without resulting in overdosing, and just under what I saw in another thread, which said a 10-gallon usually works out to about 8.2 gallons of water.

I have a partial bottle of Coppersafe, but it has an expiration date of June 2016. I did as test last night on 1 gallon of water with 1.25 ml of Coppersafe. My API test kit showed that copper is still present, but I couldn't get a good reading of the actual level. I read the thread on how to properly read the result, but the color was yellow, not in the range of tans on the card. The API test is probably the same age as the Coppersafe, so I don't trust it anyway and ended up not dosing with the expired Coppersafe. I'll pick up a new bottle at noon.

The RG is hiding in its ceramic cave rock. I was able to get a quick view of him. He was laying on his side, but this was right after I turned the lights on and he's now hovering in there. Doesn't appear to be breathing hard. I only saw the right side of his face and I didn't see any spots. The spots I saw before (and in the photos) are on his left side. I assume they'll be spreading to the left side as well. The wrasse is also hiding in his cave rock, but I can tell he's swimming in there.

Sorry for the long post, but I've found that older threads on R2R are most helpful when people cover a lot of details and you can see how things progress.

 

[tmRoth]

DO NOT add coppersafe to your tank with corals in it. add it to a separate quarantine tank with just the infected fish and some simple structures for them to hide in like a PVC pipe.

The fish are still in their original QT with a couple of ceramic cave rocks plus a little tub of sand for the wrasse, so no problem with corals, inverts, or live rock.

 

[tmRoth]

Found Coppersafe and Hanna tester at a LFS and starting treatment.

Just curious, though - is it "normal" with ich for the royal gramma to go from active and eating one evening to no appetite and hiding the next morning, and then lethargic the following day? The RG isn't breathing heavily, just lethargic and staying in its hidey-hole, not eating, and doesn't have any additional white spots today. I didn't think ich would have this much of a negative effect so quickly.

Also, the six-line wrasse is still active and eating, with no signs of ich, so I'm wondering if there could be something else wrong with the RG?

 

[SlugSnorter]

Found Coppersafe and Hanna tester at a LFS and starting treatment.

Just curious, though - is it "normal" with ich for the royal gramma to go from active and eating one evening to no appetite and hiding the next morning, and then lethargic the following day? The RG isn't breathing heavily, just lethargic and staying in its hidey-hole, not eating, and doesn't have any additional white spots today. I didn't think ich would have this much of a negative effect so quickly.

Also, the six-line wrasse is still active and eating, with no signs of ich, so I'm wondering if there could be something else wrong with the RG?

Ich can take time to reach obvious symptoms in a fish.

Yes, its not unheard of for a fish's to worsen faster as the infection progresses.

continue to monitor the fish through treatment

 

[tmRoth]

I've treated with Coppersafe to 1.77 ppm (per Hanna tester) and will raise to 2.0 tomorrow (because of the wrasse, I'm following the suggestion made by @vetteguy53081 in this thread but I'm open to other recommendations). I added the copper in 1ml increments over three hours to acclimate.

Wrasse is doing fine, active and still eating, but the video below shows what the royal gramma has been doing all day - hanging vertically inside his ceramic cave rock. He's not breathing fast, but is lethargic, not responding to the flashlight when I shine it on him. If you look closely, there's a spot at what I think is the anus, and I'm wondering if maybe something is wrong other than ich - internal parasites, maybe?

 

[jabberwock]

The RG is awful thin. I would realistically not be optimistic...

Sorry for your troubles, ich just wiped out all 4 of my fish in a 25 gallon.

 

[C4ctus99]

I actually have a possibly relevant question. I have had 2 separate fish now that I brought home that seemed to have major stress issues and behaved similarly to how your RG is. They would hide, never any heavy breathing but obviously stressed, not eat much if anything at all, and die within a week. I’m beginning to wonder if it is an environmental adaption issue, it sounds very similar to what your RG is doing though, almost like an anxiety or panic freeze up response. Is it possible your RG is having something similar?

Neither of the 2 fish showed any signs of illness, so it may be totally unrelated, just figured I’d ask the question just in case

 

[jabberwock]

10 gallons is pretty tiny for a RG and a 6 line.

 

[tmRoth]

I actually have a possibly relevant question. I have had 2 separate fish now that I brought home that seemed to have major stress issues and behaved similarly to how your RG is. They would hide, never any heavy breathing but obviously stressed, not eat much if anything at all, and die within a week. I’m beginning to wonder if it is an environmental adaption issue, it sounds very similar to what your RG is doing though, almost like an anxiety or panic freeze up response. Is it possible your RG is having something similar?

Neither of the 2 fish showed any signs of illness, so it may be totally unrelated, just figured I’d ask the question just in case

I don't think so. The RG and wrasse were in the QT for 14 days with no issues. Both were active and eating well. No aggression from either one, other than the RG making a big show with the mouth when the wrasse got near his hideout. At first they would hide whenever I came near the tank, but over the last week the RG wasn't afraid of me at all and came to expect food whenever I lifted the lid of the tank.

This came on very suddenly overnight. Tuesday evening both were swimming around and eating, Wednesday morning (yesterday) the RG was hiding beneath the filter sponge, just darting out and right back in a few times during the day. Now today it's been hanging vertically in the cave all day.