Is this the state of captive bred marine fish?

[Ike]

Its funny - on the further end of the spectrum, PETA feels that keeping all aquaria is 'not environmentally friendly - nor ethical'. So - they would not support 'captive breeding'. I would suggest as did @Hemmdog that people pretending that captive breeding is 'the only solution' will be surprised 20 years from now. At that point - captive breeding and keeping fish in general will probably be extremely restricted - if allowed at all. Look at the movement to close zoos in this country.

It's not environmentally friendly and never will be unless somehow aquarists can play a big part in rebuilding and helping reefs. The whole being a human thing isn't very environmentally friendly... We are the ultimate invasive species

 

[MnFish1]

It's not environmentally friendly and never will be unless somehow aquarists can play a big part in rebuilding and helping reefs. The whole being a human thing isn't very environmentally friendly... We are the ultimate invasive species

The point I was making is there are lots of groups out there that would consider your point of view cruel. Since you are keeping any animal in a glass box. I know this might not sit well with you since you view your method as somewhat righteous at least to my reading. I was only pointing out that many people think you’re being cruel for keeping an aquarium at all. I’ll respond to your other post a bit later

 

[_JoeD]

I feel like this is classic early adopter stuff. I remember walking around a Circuit City in 2004 wondering what kind of rich idiot would spend 13 grand on a giant rear projection 720 HDTV. Well, enough rich idiots did buy those things to pay for the r&d and make it possible for me to get a pretty stinkin' nice 55" TV for $500 last year.

No doubt a significant amount of labor goes into figuring out how to breed a marine fish for the first time. As more people figure stuff out and more farms open, we'll see more variety and more affordable pries. Owning one of the first captive bred purple tangs is probably worth $800 to someone.

You also don't need to be a "millennial hippy" to recognize that captive breeding is going to play an important role in the future of this hobby. Collecting wild animals from stressed ecosystems isn't going to get any cheaper or easier to navigate politically.

Edit: some redundancy from posts above in here because some other posters were replying at the same time as me.

Well said. In fact, the hobby should be aiming for sustainability via captive breeding. As you said, it's the future and the right thing to do. It will be cheaper, just like the newest desiner clown goes from 500 a pair to 100

 

[Ike]

The point I was making is there are lots of groups out there that would consider your point of view cruel. Since you are keeping any animal in a glass box. I know this might not sit well with you since you view your method as somewhat righteous at least to my reading. I was only pointing out that many people think you’re being cruel for keeping an aquarium at all. I’ll respond to your other post a bit later

I think you read me wrong. I believe in being responsible stewards of the fish and corals we're lucky enough to be able to keep and that the less we deplete natural resources the better. How is that righteous?

 

[MnFish1]

I think you read me wrong. I believe in being responsible stewards of the fish and corals we're lucky enough to be able to keep and that the less we deplete natural resources the better. How is that righteous?

To me the quote below telling other people what 'they need to do 'in all seriousness'' is righteous. You asked - I answered.

In all seriousness, we need people to buy these overly expensive fish to encourage them to keep going and learn how to be more efficient. I'd suspect there are a lot of people willing to pay double or triple the typical price and it will be tougher to get there if they can't sell enough overpriced fish early on.

The other questions you posed:

Also, can you show me some research that shows captive bred marine fish (or freshater) are any more likely to get pathogens than wild caught specimens? Your argument about fish being banned is basically a slippery slope and I don't see much reason to believe that captive bred fish would be banned if imports are banned. There are plenty of examples of things that are bred in captivity but not allowed to be collected. Plenty of corals alone as examples! Ther inbreeding... another slippery slope, and one that doesn't seem to be a problem in almost every captive bred fish out there.

1. https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
Cryptocaryon irritans, the causative agent of "marine white spot disease" is an important disease of marine and brackish water finfish, and has been documented in aquacultured, captive display, and wild populations. Common disease signs include white spots or areas of increased mucus, flashing, or respiratory distress; however, other signs may be seen, and fish should be sampled by a fish health specialist to verify presence of the parasite with a microscope.
A number of factors determine how severe the disease and mortalities will be and the length of the parasite life cycle. These factors include the strain of Cryptocaryon, the temperature and salinity of the water, the species and age of the fish and their general immune status, previous exposure to the parasite, the number of infective parasites present, and the dissolved oxygen concentration of the water.
2. https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...ion-of-threatened-elkhorn-and-staghorn-corals
Section 4(d) of the ESA provides that, whenever a species is listed as threatened, the Secretary of Commerce (Secretary) shall issue such regulations as the Secretary deems necessary and advisable to provide for the conservation of the species. Such regulations may include any or all of the prohibitions in ESA section 9(a)(1) that apply automatically to species listed as endangered. Those section 9(a)(1) prohibitions make it unlawful, with limited specified exceptions, for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to: “(A) import any such species into, or export any such species from the United States; (B) take any such species within the United States or the territorial sea of the United States; (C) take any such species upon the high seas; (D) possess, sell, deliver, carry, transport, or ship, by any means whatsoever, any such species taken in violation of subparagraphs (B) and (C); (E) deliver, receive, carry, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce, by any means whatsoever and in the course of a commercial activity, any such species; (F) sell or offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce any such species; or (G) violate any regulation pertaining to such species or to any threatened species of fish or wildlife listed pursuant to section 1533 of this title and promulgated by the Secretary pursuant to authority provided by this chapter.” Section 11 of the ESA provides for civil and criminal penalties for violation of section 9 or regulations issued under the ESA.

By the way - this also applies to 'dead' coral skeletons. If you dont believe me - find some 'Elkhorn' Coral for sale somewhere...

3. Actually - part of the reason for all of the varieties of clownfish with odd markings is 'inbreeding'. Now mismarked fish are merely called 'snowflake or some other fancy name' clowns.

I will grant you - no one knows what 'will or won't happen. But - like I said originally - there are many out there that think keeping fish in a 'glass box' is immoral and should be forbidden - whether captive bred or wild caught.

I don't think any of what I said was 'a slippery slope'. But again thats just my opinion. I have nothing against tank raised fish (at all) - I do have a slight disagreement with your attitude displayed above - about how people have almost the 'duty' to buy captive bred fish to keep the breeders in business. I disagree with you - and as you said - thats ok.

 

[Ike]

To me the quote below telling other people what 'they need to do 'in all seriousness'' is righteous. You asked - I answered.


The other questions you posed:


1. https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
Cryptocaryon irritans, the causative agent of "marine white spot disease" is an important disease of marine and brackish water finfish, and has been documented in aquacultured, captive display, and wild populations. Common disease signs include white spots or areas of increased mucus, flashing, or respiratory distress; however, other signs may be seen, and fish should be sampled by a fish health specialist to verify presence of the parasite with a microscope.
A number of factors determine how severe the disease and mortalities will be and the length of the parasite life cycle. These factors include the strain of Cryptocaryon, the temperature and salinity of the water, the species and age of the fish and their general immune status, previous exposure to the parasite, the number of infective parasites present, and the dissolved oxygen concentration of the water.
2. https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...ion-of-threatened-elkhorn-and-staghorn-corals
Section 4(d) of the ESA provides that, whenever a species is listed as threatened, the Secretary of Commerce (Secretary) shall issue such regulations as the Secretary deems necessary and advisable to provide for the conservation of the species. Such regulations may include any or all of the prohibitions in ESA section 9(a)(1) that apply automatically to species listed as endangered. Those section 9(a)(1) prohibitions make it unlawful, with limited specified exceptions, for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to: “(A) import any such species into, or export any such species from the United States; (B) take any such species within the United States or the territorial sea of the United States; (C) take any such species upon the high seas; (D) possess, sell, deliver, carry, transport, or ship, by any means whatsoever, any such species taken in violation of subparagraphs (B) and (C); (E) deliver, receive, carry, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce, by any means whatsoever and in the course of a commercial activity, any such species; (F) sell or offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce any such species; or (G) violate any regulation pertaining to such species or to any threatened species of fish or wildlife listed pursuant to section 1533 of this title and promulgated by the Secretary pursuant to authority provided by this chapter.” Section 11 of the ESA provides for civil and criminal penalties for violation of section 9 or regulations issued under the ESA.

By the way - this also applies to 'dead' coral skeletons. If you dont believe me - find some 'Elkhorn' Coral for sale somewhere...

3. Actually - part of the reason for all of the varieties of clownfish with odd markings is 'inbreeding'. Now mismarked fish are merely called 'snowflake or some other fancy name' clowns.

I will grant you - no one knows what 'will or won't happen. But - like I said originally - there are many out there that think keeping fish in a 'glass box' is immoral and should be forbidden - whether captive bred or wild caught.

I don't think any of what I said was 'a slippery slope'. But again thats just my opinion. I have nothing against tank raised fish (at all) - I do have a slight disagreement with your attitude displayed above - about how people have almost the 'duty' to buy captive bred fish to keep the breeders in business. I disagree with you - and as you said - thats ok.

Ok, you still haven't pointed out how it's righteous... You're just repeating some things I said and calling it righteous.

1.) The only thing that mentions that seems to directly support what you're saying is that fish that survive outbreaks are more resistant for 6 months. This based on some writings by Burgess from the mid-'90s. It hardly seems like a valid argument against captive raised marine fish. I could just as easily argue that since they're better adapted to a captive environment that they will be more likely to survive to be exposed.

2.) The key word there is "may" include any or all. There are freshwater fish that are threatened and some even extinct that are still traded and sold within the hobby without issue. Lake Victoria Cichlids are one example... The precedent for fish is that if they're being commercially bred that it's unlikely there will be any issues.

3.) Actually, it's mostly selective breeding for traits. Yes, inbreeding can be an issue, but any decent breeder will do their best to avoid it.

My attitude? I'm simply saying that if people want captive raised tangs that people will need to su[pport the breeders, if they don't they will go away. I'm not imposing my will on anyone, not that it would do any good if I tried... We'll just stop here

 

[MnFish1]

1.) The only thing that mentions that seems to directly support what you're saying is that fish that survive outbreaks are more resistant for 6 months. This based on some writings by Burgess from the mid-'90s. It hardly seems like a valid argument against captive raised marine fish. I could just as easily argue that since they're better adapted to a captive environment that they will be more likely to survive to be exposed.

If you read the BOLDED part of the quotation - it says one of the factors that plays a role in CI infection is "previous exposure to the parasite," Captive bred fish have not been exposed to the parasite - so by definition - they are at higher risk (is if a huge risk? IDK - I only said it was a risk. And you're absolutely correct - they may be more likely to survive. Neither of us know that either.

2.) The key word there is "may" include any or all. There are freshwater fish that are threatened and some even extinct that are still traded and sold within the hobby without issue. Lake Victoria Cichlids are one example... The precedent for fish is that if they're being commercially bred that it's unlikely there will be any issues.

All I can do is quote you the law from the endagered species act. Its up to you to interpret it. I mean - people also buy and sell various arrowana in the US - that are technically illegal to import/own - that doesn't mean that its 'ok'. You're also taking what I said in my original post out of context - And I was answering your question.

3.) Actually, it's mostly selective breeding for traits. Yes, inbreeding can be an issue, but any decent breeder will do their best to avoid it.

So - take the Angel fish breeding - that took 4 years to accomplish (I believe it was POMA labs) - which do you think is more likely - they will have 30 breeding pairs of large angels (from different sources - or will they use offspring from the first 2 captive fish?)

Ok, you still haven't pointed out how it's righteous... You're just repeating some things I said and calling it righteous.

Ummm - whatever lol. how else can I prove youre acting righteous except by quoting what you said. The way youre acting righteous (since YOU asked) is that you are. IMO - when you say that 'seriously' other strangers need to do a certain thing (buy an expensive captive bred fish) because you happen to have that opinion - to me thats acting righteous - whether you're correct or incorrect. But the righteous comment was a slight part of what I was saying - and who cares - its just my opinion. And it wasnt meant as a negative or an insult per se.

 

[Ike]

If you read the BOLDED part of the quotation - it says one of the factors that plays a role in CI infection is "previous exposure to the parasite," Captive bred fish have not been exposed to the parasite - so by definition - they are at higher risk (is if a huge risk? IDK - I only said it was a risk. And you're absolutely correct - they may be more likely to survive. Neither of us know that either.



All I can do is quote you the law from the endagered species act. Its up to you to interpret it. I mean - people also buy and sell various arrowana in the US - that are technically illegal to import/own - that doesn't mean that its 'ok'. You're also taking what I said in my original post out of context - And I was answering your question.


So - take the Angel fish breeding - that took 4 years to accomplish (I believe it was POMA labs) - which do you think is more likely - they will have 30 breeding pairs of large angels (from different sources - or will they use offspring from the first 2 captive fish?)


Ummm - whatever lol. how else can I prove youre acting righteous except by quoting what you said. The way youre acting righteous (since YOU asked) is that you are. IMO - when you say that 'seriously' other strangers need to do a certain thing (buy an expensive captive bred fish) because you happen to have that opinion - to me thats acting righteous - whether you're correct or incorrect. But the righteous comment was a slight part of what I was saying - and who cares - its just my opinion. And it wasnt meant as a negative or an insult per se.

No big deal, I'm just here to help some people and to learn like the rest of us. The angelfish breeding you bring up is why I want this to work. What POMA was doing was just too costly and was not supported well enough financially. I want captive bred tangs to become a reality, but I want people that are wealthier than me to support them earlier on. I'll drop money on corals, but my limit with fish is about $200 I don't think that's righteous, I think that's good for the hobby, and a little selfish on my part! I'd pay $200 for a small captive raised purple tang in a heartbeat.

 

[MnFish1]

No big deal, I'm just here to help some people and to learn like the rest of us. The angelfish breeding you bring up is why I want this to work. What POMA was doing was just too costly and was not supported well enough financially. I want captive bred tangs to become a reality, but I want people that are wealthier than me to support them earlier on. I'll drop money on corals, but my limit with fish is about $200 I don't think that's righteous, I think that's good for the hobby, and a little selfish on my part! I'd pay $200 for a small captive raised purple tang in a heartbeat.

I dont mean this in a bad way - you're right - selfish is probably a better word than righteous. (a little selfish - not a problem selfish)

 

[AlgaeBarn]

I understand the concept of the captive bred fish lacking immunity, but how often do you hear about clownfish (good luck finding wild caught these days) getting sick while all the other fish in the tank are healthy? Clownfish have been so inbred in the past 20 years, but you don't hear about them being ich magnets.

Also, something that I don't think was very clear, this was the "FIRST" captive bred purple tang sold in the United States. You are buying a 1st edition. Rarely does anybody buy a 1st edition on something and expect to get a "good" deal.

 

[MnFish1]

I understand the concept of the captive bred fish lacking immunity, but how often do you hear about clownfish (good luck finding wild caught these days) getting sick while all the other fish in the tank are healthy? Clownfish have been so inbred in the past 20 years, but you don't hear about them being ich magnets.

Also, something that I don't think was very clear, this was the "FIRST" captive bred purple tang sold in the United States. You are buying a 1st edition. Rarely does anybody buy a 1st edition on something and expect to get a "good" deal.

Not quite really - when Harry Potter came out - it was sold off 17.95 or whatever - hardcover. The first edition is now worth more - of course - I doubt this tang will increase in value. As to the clown there was just a thread started by someone who bought a captive bred clown that developed CI. Actually - there is some science (I'll try to find the paper) that suggests that if you add a non-immune fish to a tank that may contain immune fish and possibly CI - that the risk is that the new fish gets a fulll blown infection (which they may or may not survive) - but the amounts of CI in the tank can overcome the immunity of the other tankmates.

 

[AlgaeBarn]

Not quite really - when Harry Potter came out - it was sold off 17.95 or whatever - hardcover. The first edition is now worth more - of course - I doubt this tang will increase in value. As to the clown there was just a thread started by someone who bought a captive bred clown that developed CI. Actually - there is some science (I'll try to find the paper) that suggests that if you add a non-immune fish to a tank that may contain immune fish and possibly CI - that the risk is that the new fish gets a fulll blown infection (which they may or may not survive) - but the amounts of CI in the tank can overcome the immunity of the other tankmates.

I'm not saying that the clownfish can't get diseases. I'm just ask people to think about the demographics of this hobby. Almost everyone has a pair of captive bred clowns in their tank, and if they were all getting CI full blown, we would hear about it a lot more.

 

[MnFish1]

I'm not saying that the clownfish can't get diseases. I'm just ask people to think about the demographics of this hobby. Almost everyone has a pair of captive bred clowns in their tank, and if they were all getting CI full blown, we would hear about it a lot more.

I agree with you - but - correct me if im wrong - I know at my LFS - they QT captive bred fish (and many people do as well). Do you guys recommend QTing your fish - or just putting them in the tank? I'm sure that you would be the ones hearing about it since you sell them

 

[AlgaeBarn]

I agree with you - but - correct me if im wrong - I know at my LFS - they QT captive bred fish (and many people do as well). Do you guys recommend QTing your fish - or just putting them in the tank? I'm sure that you would be the ones hearing about it since you sell them

It really depends on who the Captive bred fish were purchased from (distributor, retailer or from the breeder) and your tolerance and philosophy regarding QT. Does an observational QT count? Or do you treat all of your fish prophylactic (and for what disease?). If the fish does have a low level disease, a lot of times it will show itself rather quickly after shipping.

If the fish came through a distributor, then I 100% suggest a prophylactic treatment. The bigger distributors likely receive millions of wild fish a year, I wouldn't risk it and we have had an incident before.

With regards to us, we keep each vendors fish in an entirely separate system(different equipment, buckets, nets, etc) and we don't "flip" fish quickly. We keep most for a minimum of 2 weeks, usually longer (depends on size, weight, etc, we only want to ship very healthy fish). We had some yellow tangs for 3+ month and they never showed any signs of disease.

For example, for BIOTA fish, we have never had any fish come in with a noticeable disease. Would I personally put one in my tank without QT? I would put in an observational tank for about 2 weeks, ensure it is eating, and then plop them in my Display.

 

[Terri Caton]

Hey, I ain’t no hippie!
I didn’t want to deal with pests, disease, and at this point it’s a challenge to myself to only add captive bred animals. My captive bred fish were cheap though.

Biota yellow tangs are $99, I tried finding other places that sell their purple tang but it looks like it’s new? Maybe the price will come down significantly once more are around.

Agree totally. I'm not going to damage the ocean for something to put in my living room. Coral included.

 

[Cassian]

On what planet would someone live on pay $800 for a purple tang.


https://www.liveaquaria.com/divers-den/product/469536/bali-aquarich-captive-bred-purple-tang

That’s just crazy. I’m all for captive bred and aquaculture, but IMHO captive bred fish (with the exception of clowns) don’t look half as good as the wild fish do.

 

[jsvand5]

That’s just crazy. I’m all for captive bred and aquaculture, but IMHO captive bred fish (with the exception of clowns) don’t look half as good as the wild fish do.

Clowns are probably the worst example of high quality captive bred marine fish. Virtually every one of them, from all breeders, have at least some type of physical deformity.

The purple tang in the pic looks great to me. What issues do you see with it?

 

[mwilk19]

That’s just crazy. I’m all for captive bred and aquaculture, but IMHO captive bred fish (with the exception of clowns) don’t look half as good as the wild fish do.

These three fish are all captive bred. I'd say they're very comparable to their wild caught counterparts.

 

[amoore311]

That’s just crazy. I’m all for captive bred and aquaculture, but IMHO captive bred fish (with the exception of clowns) don’t look half as good as the wild fish do.

I've been in this hobby for 15 years and have seen 1000's upon 1000's of reef fish over the years. This is the most ridiculous statement I've ever read regarding captive bread fish. Including the exception listed.

 

[Cassian]

Clowns are probably the worst example of high quality captive bred marine fish. Virtually every one of them, from all breeders, have at least some type of physical deformity.

The purple tang in the pic looks great to me. What issues do you see with it?

Maybe I’ve just had a good experience then. All the CB clowns I’ve had look great.

The fins look different as well as the color and overall shape of the fish. Not saying it’s a bad fish at all, just not my favorite purple tang. To each his own