Is what we're doing illegal?

ichthyogeek

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Given that we (and big fish drug companies like API) aren't all being sued to kingdom come, some part of what we do isn't covered by law. But....we do a lot for our fish. We:
  • Treat our fish with known medications, ranging from anti-parasitics to antifungals to antibiotics (herbal remedies fall under the holistic cures, so I don't count them here).
  • Perform minor relatively noninvasive surgical techniques, such as swim bladder puncturings (minor in that there's minimal to no bleeding).
  • Sedate or anesthetize fish in clove oil or MS2-22
I just wanted to check...are we allowed to do this? Like, there are no laws that say "Thou shalt not perform a swim bladder puncturing on thy deepwater fish" or similar, right?

Is it okay as long as we're not doing this stuff on other's fish? Mostly, it's because I'm thinking about deepwater fish and was googling if it was legal for me to operate on them by doing swim bladder punctures. For example, I found this, and it's fairly comprehensive...
 

Anubisxii

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I would think it legal as long as your not marketing it. It's like running a personal farm, I don't think anyone is going to interfere with what your doing to you 5 chickens or few sheep. Even if you helped a friend with his sheep's or chickens it not a problem, but if you tried to sell services that might pass the grey are, but as my gf calls me I'm a city boy so what do I know. Just my 2 cents.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Given that we (and big fish drug companies like API) aren't all being sued to kingdom come, some part of what we do isn't covered by law. But....we do a lot for our fish. We:
  • Treat our fish with known medications, ranging from anti-parasitics to antifungals to antibiotics (herbal remedies fall under the holistic cures, so I don't count them here).
  • Perform minor relatively noninvasive surgical techniques, such as swim bladder puncturings (minor in that there's minimal to no bleeding).
  • Sedate or anesthetize fish in clove oil or MS2-22
I just wanted to check...are we allowed to do this? Like, there are no laws that say "Thou shalt not perform a swim bladder puncturing on thy deepwater fish" or similar, right?

Is it okay as long as we're not doing this stuff on other's fish? Mostly, it's because I'm thinking about deepwater fish and was googling if it was legal for me to operate on them by doing swim bladder punctures. For example, I found this, and it's fairly comprehensive...

You've likely already seen how various drugs have become less available in Canada and the EU. We've seen it this year ourselves in the US with chloroquine being taken off the market. Some drugs such as malachite green, trichlorfon and chloramphenicol are so dangerous, I won't use them even if I can get them.

MS-222 is approved for fish use, and eugenol will not likely be regulated, so the only impediment to performing fish surgeries would be animal welfare standards, and we don't have those Federally for anything but mammals (local laws vary).

My big issue is that I dispense advice here that could be construed as veterinary advice. I'm working on a legal disclaimer. Here is the one I have for my upcoming disease book:

Disclaimer

Because aquarium animal health issues are so complex, and incompletely known, please understand that the information provided, while believed accurate, may not resolve every issue for you. Judging the fitness of this advice for your specific application is solely your responsibility.

Any guidance provided is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. The use of and access to this material is not intended to create a veterinarian/patient relationship between you and the author.

You should not rely on any information contained herein without first confirming its accuracy from other sources. Conclusions drawn from multiple appropriate resources are typically more accurate.

Medication dosages are given as examples only. Follow all product safety and dosage labelling and keep all medications out of the reach of children. Always double check your math when calculating dosages.


Jay
 

ReefPig

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I have a dog and two cats, if they're sick, I take them to the vet.

The vast majority of vets would have no clue how to deal with fish, this I would imagine, would be an extremely specialist branch, if at all. Marine biologists would be better placed, but you try asking them to come and fix your fish.

We do what we do, because there are no other options, and that we do so with the best of intention, usually in situations where it's live or death.

I do not know of any laws which prevents such care, but obviously there is animal welfare, albeit, I cannot imagine the RSPCA (UK pet rescue) would come knocking on my door for carrying out swim bladder surgery.

It's a good question to ask, and one which should continue to be discussed.

I, for one, think it's entirely unethical, how some people have zero idea how to deal with fish/corals, throw them into a new tank, only to find out they all die very quickly for various reasons, this happens A LOT.

I feel we should be legally required to carry a pet license and a minimum set of knowledge we should have before we're allowed to keep them.
 

EMeyer

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My goodness. You think the government can and maybe even should tell us how to take care of our own pets on our own property?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this mindset. Its a bit of a moot point isnt it? It reminds me of the thread about whether its illegal to collect your own rainwater. Since no cops ever come on your property to inspect whether you're collecting rainwater, it doesnt really matter what a law somewhere technically says, does it?

As another poster said, this kind of thing is only really an issue for businesses.
 

Indytraveler83

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In most states it is legal to vaccinate your own pets, and the vaccinations can be purchased over the counter at quite a few stores.

In most states it's even legal to euthanize your own pet (even a dog, cat or horse) as long as you follow certain ethical guidelines. (former animal control officer here, I've studied this stuff).

Over most of the US, pets are considered property just like your car or your refrigerator. While there are some vague moral standards in place to try and prevent cruelty/abuse, it is very rarely spelled out and permits you to perform a wide range of first aid and medical acts on your pets without much interference.

Think of farmers who assist with birthing calves, brand or tag their animals, and ultimately slaughter them for butchering. The government does not see our fish in any different light than that.

As above posters have mentioned, the two places that there could be issues is 1) If you were to practice such medical acts on another person's animals (and especially if you charge for it). And 2) Being certain the drugs/treatments you use are legally obtained and used for their marked purpose.

For example, there is a product that can be obtained at the hardware store than can assist with water chemistry issues if used in a certain way. However, advising that use is against the marked purpose of the product, putting anyone who advises it's use in legal limbo.


Short answer: What most of us do is perfectly legal. We just must be cautious that friendly advice/assistance does not cross over into the actual practice of veterinary medicine.
 

chipmunkofdoom2

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It reminds me of the thread about whether its illegal to collect your own rainwater. Since no cops ever come on your property to inspect whether you're collecting rainwater, it doesnt really matter what a law somewhere technically says, does it?

Good to know. My neighbor has a really nice TV that I've been jealous of for a really long time. I'll be breaking into his house tonight to steal it. It doesn't matter if there's a law somewhere that technically says stealing is a crime, I just have to be careful that nobody sees me.

Come to think of it, I think I'll start cheating on my fiance with my old girlfriend. It doesn't really matter that I "technically" made a promise to marry and be faithful to one person. At the end of the day, all that really matters is what you can get away with. And I think I can get away with it.

This new outlook will change my life. Thanks!
 

N.Sreefer

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In Canada the SPCA won't even respond to reports of reptiles fish etc being abused they only respond when it's a mammal or bird. So I highly doubt anyone would have a problem with fish being operated on technically you could abuse and neglect fish without legal ramifications. I can't imagine it's any different in the U.S, mabey state laws.
 

EMeyer

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Good to know. My neighbor has a really nice TV that I've been jealous of for a really long time. I'll be breaking into his house tonight to steal it. It doesn't matter if there's a law somewhere that technically says stealing is a crime, I just have to be careful that nobody sees me.

Come to think of it, I think I'll start cheating on my fiance with my old girlfriend. It doesn't really matter that I "technically" made a promise to marry and be faithful to one person. At the end of the day, all that really matters is what you can get away with. And I think I can get away with it.

This new outlook will change my life. Thanks!
 

Anubisxii

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I have a dog and two cats, if they're sick, I take them to the vet.

The vast majority of vets would have no clue how to deal with fish, this I would imagine, would be an extremely specialist branch, if at all. Marine biologists would be better placed, but you try asking them to come and fix your fish.

We do what we do, because there are no other options, and that we do so with the best of intention, usually in situations where it's live or death.

I do not know of any laws which prevents such care, but obviously there is animal welfare, albeit, I cannot imagine the RSPCA (UK pet rescue) would come knocking on my door for carrying out swim bladder surgery.

It's a good question to ask, and one which should continue to be discussed.

I, for one, think it's entirely unethical, how some people have zero idea how to deal with fish/corals, throw them into a new tank, only to find out they all die very quickly for various reasons, this happens A LOT.

I feel we should be legally required to carry a pet license and a minimum set of knowledge we should have before we're allowed to keep them.


Although I agree with your statement on people just buying stuff and throwing it into tanks not take care of it and it just die, I'm good on having to give my local or federal government more $ just to keep fish or a coral. I think we can all agree this hobby is expensive enough, to add the government getting its hand in my pockets here I'm ok without it.

I am the same, I have a husky and 4 cats and when their sick they go to the vet, Even that gets crazy sometime. I cant tell you how many times a cat had a UTI and the same story from the vet $400 later for bloodwork and a bunch of BS and all this other stuff for at $20 antibiotic to fix it. We have a cat with an eye issue (3rd eyelid) that my GF spent over $9,000 on going from specialist to specialist, 50 different tests, and dozens of medications to find out that when its eye flairs up it needs a $40 depo shot and the problem goes away for years at a time. I think there can be some leaps made in assisting people with their livestock but I'm %100 against a "fish keeping license" If your growing to sell that's a different story but for a hobbyist I think that's just crazy.

I don't mean to rant and I swear I'm not crazy but I think needed a license or pass a test to keep livestock is a major extreme.
 

nezw0001

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In most states it is legal to vaccinate your own pets, and the vaccinations can be purchased over the counter at quite a few stores.

In most states it's even legal to euthanize your own pet (even a dog, cat or horse) as long as you follow certain ethical guidelines. (former animal control officer here, I've studied this stuff).

Over most of the US, pets are considered property just like your car or your refrigerator. While there are some vague moral standards in place to try and prevent cruelty/abuse, it is very rarely spelled out and permits you to perform a wide range of first aid and medical acts on your pets without much interference.

Think of farmers who assist with birthing calves, brand or tag their animals, and ultimately slaughter them for butchering. The government does not see our fish in any different light than that.

As above posters have mentioned, the two places that there could be issues is 1) If you were to practice such medical acts on another person's animals (and especially if you charge for it). And 2) Being certain the drugs/treatments you use are legally obtained and used for their marked purpose.

For example, there is a product that can be obtained at the hardware store than can assist with water chemistry issues if used in a certain way. However, advising that use is against the marked purpose of the product, putting anyone who advises it's use in legal limbo.


Short answer: What most of us do is perfectly legal. We just must be cautious that friendly advice/assistance does not cross over into the actual practice of veterinary medicine.

BUT farmers are legally required to have a veterinarian prescribe antibiotics and conduct surgeries.

In most states only licenses veterinarians can (paraphrased)

1. Diagnose or prescribe a drug, medicine, appliance, application, or treatment of whatever nature for the prevention, cure, or relief of a wound, fracture, bodily injury, or disease of animals.

2. Administer a drug, medicine ,appliance, application, or treatment of whatever nature for the prevention, cure, or relief of a wound, fracture, bodily injury, or disease of animals, except where the medicine, appliance, application, or treatment is administered by a registered veterinary technician or a veterinary assistant at the direction of and under the direct supervision of a licensed veterinarian

(d) Performs a surgical or dental operation upon an animal.
 

flampton

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BUT farmers are legally required to have a veterinarian prescribe antibiotics and conduct surgeries.

In most states only licenses veterinarians can (paraphrased)

1. Diagnose or prescribe a drug, medicine, appliance, application, or treatment of whatever nature for the prevention, cure, or relief of a wound, fracture, bodily injury, or disease of animals.

2. Administer a drug, medicine ,appliance, application, or treatment of whatever nature for the prevention, cure, or relief of a wound, fracture, bodily injury, or disease of animals, except where the medicine, appliance, application, or treatment is administered by a registered veterinary technician or a veterinary assistant at the direction of and under the direct supervision of a licensed veterinarian

(d) Performs a surgical or dental operation upon an animal.

Yup but it can be the Wild West. Antibiotics are a constant on a lot of farms and they are pretty free flowing. From growth stimulation to preventatives, to actual treatments. So not the most responsible industry taken as a whole.

-----
However I believe that you should have some knowledge when you perform medicine. If you don't know what spectrum means, or the difference between prokaryotes and eukaryotes. Well you probably shouldn't be 'experimenting'
 

Indytraveler83

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BUT farmers are legally required to have a veterinarian prescribe antibiotics and conduct surgeries.

In most states only licenses veterinarians can (paraphrased)

1. Diagnose or prescribe a drug, medicine, appliance, application, or treatment of whatever nature for the prevention, cure, or relief of a wound, fracture, bodily injury, or disease of animals.

2. Administer a drug, medicine ,appliance, application, or treatment of whatever nature for the prevention, cure, or relief of a wound, fracture, bodily injury, or disease of animals, except where the medicine, appliance, application, or treatment is administered by a registered veterinary technician or a veterinary assistant at the direction of and under the direct supervision of a licensed veterinarian

(d) Performs a surgical or dental operation upon an animal.

This is where you have to really look into how the law is interpreted. The way this is worded, if you take it literally, you'd be unable to so much as put disinfectant on a wound. Nor would you be able to use over the counter flea and tick medication, as it would qualify as "disease prevention."

So you have to look at how the law is actually applied. Over the counter medications are usually made available because they are approved to be used without medical supervision by a Vet/Dr.

I won't wade in on swim bladder punctures or similar procedures because from what I see anyways, such a thing doesn't really have a reasonable equivalent in dog/cat or human practice, so I could certainly see the argument there.
 

CindyKz

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I think the key is that the meds we use are available over the counter. There are laws against practicing medicine without the appropriate license and training, but that doesn't prevent me from giving you a tylenol out of my purse if you have a headache.

As far as procedures such as venting swim bladders, I don't know. I feel it's more of an ethical argument than a legal one, but maybe that's just me.
 

Coralsdaily

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I think we can address this topic in two views: Legality vs. ethics. Are we allowed to do some of all these things? I believe most of the lower 48 states do not have laws presently protecting domestic marine animals, unless you are a commercially operated place, or USDA licensed farms. Even then, there isn't enough political voice to pressure lawmakers to write policies for or against human treatments to marine animals that aren't mammals.
Now in the eyes of ethics- I think most hobbyists will agree that the reason why we perform some of these exercises is because we mean well, we want the best health not just for the creature we are treating alone, but to prevent disease from spreading and harming others. They may be crude and barbaric in some people's eyes, but no different than what human doctors do to human patients in the 18th century before the invention of modern medicine.
Aquarium animal healthcare is indeed quite barbaric when compared to the human, or furry health care system. I am sure if there is a technology that will help our aquatic friends better quality of life we'd all be happy to invest. And for the record, I absolutely believe all creatures can feel pain, fish included.
 
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