It’s kinda disturbing seeing how many noobs kill aquatic life with their nano tanks….

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LegalReefer

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No you’re exactly right & that’s the point I’m trying to make here. People think I’m trying to [be unkind to] nano owners
It’s a good point, and I think @bert236 certainly helped provide some clarity on it. What solution do you propose though? How do we solve the issue of a growing hobby with a lower entry level than in the past, with a broader population base able to access, who isn’t as knowledgeable or educated on matters of reef keeping as we would optimally like them to be? How can we change things to protect the fish and corals, while also permitting the hobby to grow?
 
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pdxmonkeyboy

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Ignorance is one thing, intention is another. I don't think there are many people that don't feel bad when they kill something. Which is why i will never run an aquarium store, they see so many dead things. It would crush me.

I have an 800 gallon system, i bet i have killed more than most nano or hobby scale people in the past 10 years.
 

KevinC

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Not trying to stir the pot but if you look at any reputable reefer they will tell you nanos are harder for beginners. Even a multitude of posts on this very forum. I am just about to start my first tank and during my research online and irl almost everyone said to stay away from sub 30g tanks because it is much harder to keep things stable and isn’t as forgiving of beginner mistakes. As someone who has no actual practice in the hobby just research done I feel a small tanks water parameters would get out of hand way faster with no hands on knowledge. some mistakes would harm or crash your tank where as they wouldn’t have as much effect in a tank twice or more the water volume (such as dosing or stuff like that). It also would limit what utility fish you can keep and amount of CUC. Everything there seems like it would make it harder for a beginner but like I said I have no hands on experience so maybe I’m wrong.
Good job on searching up first! This is exactly what I have done before I got my first saltwater tank.

one thing I feel like pointing out tho. About 80% of the “reputable reefer” are sps dominate or atleast have a few colonies of sps.

so as long as you stay away from sps and don’t stress on dosing stuff to keep parameter stable, I’d say you are good to go!!

good luck on your upcoming tank!
 

a.t.t.r

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I kinda see both sides. Things go wrong faster in a small tank but are also easier and cheeper to fix once caught. However it is also easier to make mistakes in a small tank both with stocking selection and chemical dosing. What would be a minor overdose in a large tank is devastating to a smaller one.

just from being in the industry years ago the most successful noobs started with 55 gallons or larger or did massive research before starting a 20 gallon. Those 12 gallon and smaller tanks were always a disaster.
Everyone makes mistakes but we should be caring for the life we take into our tanks and not be so dismissive and treat it as a experiment or something. Smaller tanks require more planning and thought.
 

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ironically, blaming noobs also should put some of the blame on the experienced hobbyists for not teaching the noobs the correct ways. perhaps there should be a large button on the top of the R2R homepage saying 'if you're new CLICK HERE' to at least go over the basics and possibly a separate area for noobie FAQ.

there are also those noobs that probably take all their advice from their local LFS or Petco which might not be the best. then inevitably they come to the forums when it goes wrong. (and get yelled at by experienced reefers for not being marine biologists).

experienced reefers gatekeeping the hobby/blaming noobs for their own inexperience is part of the problem
 

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It’s a good point, and I think @bert236 certainly helped provide some clarity on it. What solution do you propose though? How do we solve the issue of a growing hobby with a lower entry level than in the past, with a broader population base able to access, who isn’t as knowledgeable or educated on matters of reef keeping as we would optimally like them to be? How can we change things to protect the fish and corals, while also permitting the hobby to grow?
The real answer is you probably can’t, it’s the same with everything in life just with more dire consequences. The solution is obviously more education but the problem with that is how do you do it? I would wager most people just looking to get into this hobby aren’t on here and watching endless YouTube videos like the guys at brs , tidal gardens or my first fish tank who give really good advice for people like me. I guess the best solution is to keep promoting the people who give good advice and keep supporting them so they continue to grow in the spotlight as the hobby does. I don’t think a nano sounds like a recipe for failure as many people have done it for their first tank but to me it sounded way harder than it needed to be.
 

bert236

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Good job on searching up first! This is exactly what I have done before I got my first saltwater tank.

one thing I feel like pointing out tho. About 80% of the “reputable reefer” are sps dominate or atleast have a few colonies of sps.

so as long as you stay away from sps and don’t stress on dosing stuff to keep parameter stable, I’d say you are good to go!!

good luck on your upcoming tank!
That’s actually a fair point I hadn’t thought about. Thank you, hopefully majority of the stuff comes in tomorrow and the rest next week. I’ll be sure to start a build thread once I start putting it together.
 
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That’s actually a fair point I hadn’t thought about. Thank you, hopefully majority of the stuff comes in tomorrow and the rest next week. I’ll be sure to start a build thread once I start putting it
There’s definitely still LPS and even some soft corals that are highly sensitive to parameter changes. Either way you seem like you are on the right track. Research is key. Good luck
 
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How's is eating fish once a week any different than a noobie TRYING to keep a tropical fish the best they can and failing 60 days in?

Animal PROCESSING to feed the masses in volume is much more cruel than accidentally killing a clown fish in a nano. But! Just my opinion....

With Beef and pork, the processing plant hangs the live animals up by the hind legs and cut their throats and they bleed out going along the conveyer line

Fishermen take live fish and throw them into a large ice tank in the haul of their boat where the fish went from happily swimming to being caught in a net to being thrown on ice to freeze and suffocate to death over 5-10 mins



.
 
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LaloJ

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Few newbies I've seen ask before putting a tank in their home or office, IME at least. I think what the OP is referring to is the negligence (perhaps) of the newbies in thinking that a small tank will be easier to maintain, and it's better to start, when it's not really, and supported with the first thing that I mentioned, they do not investigate or they only go with the LFS that sells them something small and affordable because in the end they sell and the aquarist buys, if he is a newbie you can sell him anything if he has not done a previous investigation, so they can walking out of the store with a 10 gallon tank and a nice tang the store sold her (think about how many times this could have happened, it happens a lot with aquarists starting out in fresh water), I think that's what the message means main, obviously not all LFS do this, of course. We were all newbies, we have all killed fish due to negligence and lack of information, even with several years of experience in the hobby, but if I were a newbie, I have the absolutely vast internet to be able to research about what I want to do, some of us we struggled with that at first because the information came from books or was certainly limited.
 

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I can get behind what I think was meant to be the overall sentiment in the original post.
I used to own ferrets and as a noob at one point, I had no idea all of the things I’d be in for. They become very expensive as they get older, they need specialized veterinary care, lots of playtime and enrichment and specialized food and supplements to keep them healthy. I would say that they’re less work than a reef tank, overall, but they were my babies and I treated them that way. There wasn’t much great info out there, except forums like this. The pet stores around me (and I live in Chicago) were and are extremely disappointing in their selection of appropriate foods and information on owning ferrets, yet they’re a very popular pet.
Once I knew just how much it took to own those fur babies, I had this dream to open my own store. A “pet store” where I would sell healthy & appropriate supplies for exotic pets from hamsters to ferrets, sugar gliders, etc. I wanted to have animals available as well but only for “adoption” after their prospective owners could prove that they’d be able to take care of these animals.
I wish there could be something like this for fish and coral. I don’t know how you’d do it, but I feel like this could work somehow. However, with the “big box” stores and irresponsible LFSs out there who don’t care and are just in it for the money, not sure how you’d ultimately dissuade newcomers to the hobby who are not going to care for the animals properly. :(
 
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How's is eating fish once a week and different than a nookie TRYING to keep a tropical fish the best they can and failing 60 days in?
Because eating to survive & wanting to own a reef tank are two completely different things????? Like what…
 
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Lost in the Sauce

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Can we all agree to stop feeding the Trolls please?

This forum is looking more and more like REDDIT every day and quite honestly, that disturbs me a lot more than what you think about a nano tank owner.
 
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I can get behind what I think was meant to be the overall sentiment in the original post.
I used to own ferrets and as a noob at one point, I had no idea all of the things I’d be in for. They become very expensive as they get older, they need specialized veterinary care, lots of playtime and enrichment and specialized food and supplements to keep them healthy. I would say that they’re less work than a reef tank, overall, but they were my babies and I treated them that way. There wasn’t much great info out there, except forums like this. The pet stores around me (and I live in Chicago) were and are extremely disappointing in their selection of appropriate foods and information on owning ferrets, yet they’re a very popular pet.
Once I knew just how much it took to own those fur babies, I had this dream to open my own store. A “pet store” where I would sell healthy & appropriate supplies for exotic pets from hamsters to ferrets, sugar gliders, etc. I wanted to have animals available as well but only for “adoption” after their prospective owners could prove that they’d be able to take care of these animals.
I wish there could be something like this for fish and coral. I don’t know how you’d do it, but I feel like this could work somehow. However, with the “big box” stores and irresponsible LFSs out there who don’t care and are just in it for the money, not sure how you’d ultimately dissuade newcomers to the hobby who are not going to care for the animals properly. :(
That’s a good idea. Then maybe so many innocent animals wouldn’t die.
 

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@RedSeaReefer1 I respect your opinion on the subject and feel there is some validity to it. However with that being said I think the data is skewed as we see more entry level hobbyist unwilling to invest in larger systems due to initial cost. So yes smaller tanks are going to make up the majority of the data we see.

Your blunt approach to hot button topics is one way to communicate your stance on things. And can be a good way to start conversations.


That thread was also blunt and has equal validity to it.

Reefing is a science and an art that is trying to be made mainstream by our instant gratification society. No mater the tank size a seemingly large portion of new hobbyists are unwilling to put in the time to properly research what they actually need and are prone to being reactive rather than proactive.

Now to my soap box.
First.. its hard to take someone seriously on this forum that has less than 100 posts, no meaningful content, and would rather point out the problems with the hobby than provide solutions.

Second... if you see a need to educate people (noobs) so that the issue you have brought up can actually be addressed then you should go at it from that angle.

Finally... if you intend to bring up these kinds of topics you will earn much more respect from the more experienced hobbyist and buy in for your views if you advocate for change in a positive way. Start the conversations However you like, but then take responsibility for steering them in a helpful direction.

Happy reefing all... im going to take my 5k posts, multiple build threads, mentoring, and positive thinking and go help some noobs...
 

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