It just happened and I am afraid it’s probably only the beginning :-(

Status
Not open for further replies.

saltyfilmfolks

Lights! Camera! Reef!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
28,739
Reaction score
40,932
Location
California
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
OK - Unless you have other data, my guess is that the per-capita dog numbers in shelters are similar in CA and the rest of the country. WY may be an exception. Some of the colder states may be an exception. There are many cities around the country that have done this (CA is just the first state to do it).

If this law was about 'puppy mills' rather than breeders in general, why are cats and rabbits included. This is about animal activism disguised in a law against 'puppy mills'. It is a law against pet shops in general. The law will not hurt puppy mills it will hurt pet shops.
Second largest city in the country.
Tenth largest economy in the world.

The skanky pet shop in east la cannot buy animals from their nighbors house. How many pet stores do you think there are in the second largest city in the country, not to mention Orange County alone and the greater los angles basin.
I don't think you understand the scale of the problem.

We haven't even included San Diego county and the Bay Area.
 

saltyfilmfolks

Lights! Camera! Reef!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
28,739
Reaction score
40,932
Location
California
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Point 1 - It doesn't matter what it costs there. The point is still the same (See point 3 below)
Point 2 - Im not giving credit to people to know what the difference is between a shelter kitten and a white bred kitten. If ALL of the animals in a pet store are from rescues or shelters (which is what the law says) people will know that every animal in a pet store is from a rescue/shelter.
Point 3 - Do you think pet stores will not charge the same amount for a rescue/shelter dog that looks like a pure-bred (ie. is a pure-bred) as compared to a pure-bred obtained by a breeder? In other words. If I go to my shelter and adopt a pure-bred poodle it will cost maybe 150$.. If I bought that same dog in a pet store it would be 1500. Whether the pet store is getting his animals from a breeder or a rescue the price will be the same. There are lots of pure bred animals in shelters (especially pit bulls, Rottweilers, etc). So yes 'seriously'
They don't sell 1500 dogs at petco. Nor at mom and pops.
A 1500 pure bred will always be a 1500 pure bred.

And no. I'd bet 30% of folks here even know about this law in ca.

Jus sayin. That's about the total voter turnout. And let's not even go into flat earthers and climate change.
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,561
Reaction score
21,791
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
They don't sell 1500 dogs at petco. Nor at mom and pops.
A 1500 pure bred will always be a 1500 pure bred. And no. I'd bet 30% of folks here even know about this law in ca. Jus sayin. That's about the total voter turnout. And let's not even go into flat earthers and climate change.

Im talking about local pet shops. I have been to LA - and Seen the 'designer dog pet shops'. Many people complain that these pets are overpriced and even possibly from puppy mills - they are selling for thousands of dollars.

And you're wrong about dog pricing (at least here). If you go to a rescue or shelter (the humane society for example) - the price is for an adoption. It doesn't matter if its a 'mutt' or a pure-bred. Real rescues (like those specializing in Pitt bulls, for example) do not sell their animals for the same price as a pet shop or breeder - they sell them from a much lower price - because they are less marketable)

Im not sure what the voter turnout has to do with the law and whether its logical or not. But by the numbers by which it passed the legislature, which was a
very high percentage - the voters must like the law.
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,561
Reaction score
21,791
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Not the same, there aren't stray fish n corals in kill shelters.

The point is not that there are fish and coral in shelters. The point is that there are numerous groups that do not support the keeping of fish in aquaria. Again - without logic - look at what happened to the fishery in Hawaii despite much expert testimony that it was sustainable. The point was that this law which is supposedly against 'puppy mills' is really a way to appease animal activist groups - and the same logic could be easily used to severely limit the reef keeping hobby. There is no evidence that these laws have decreased the existence of puppy mills. Though - since pet stores need to get animals from someplace - it has increased adoptions.
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,561
Reaction score
21,791
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Second largest city in the country.
Tenth largest economy in the world. The skanky pet shop in east la cannot buy animals from their nighbors house. How many pet stores do you think there are in the second largest city in the country, not to mention Orange County alone and the greater los angles basin. I don't think you understand the scale of the problem.

You've lost me. The reason there are lots of pet stores in the Greater LA basin is because there are lots of people in that area. In New York City the problem is likely the same. In other areas its likely the same. That is also a huge geographical area compared to most cities. None of that has anything to do with the main points of the discussion which is - this law will not decrease the number of puppy mills (they will sell their puppies in other ways), it will hurt pet stores and legitimate breeders.

The most telling part of your debating is the questions you don't answer. Try this one again: If this law was about 'puppy mills' rather than pet stores/breeding pure-bred animals in general, why are cats and rabbits included? This is about animal activism disguised in a law against 'puppy mills'. It is a law against pet shops and breeders in general.
 

saltyfilmfolks

Lights! Camera! Reef!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
28,739
Reaction score
40,932
Location
California
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Im talking about local pet shops. I have been to LA - and Seen the 'designer dog pet shops'. Many people complain that these pets are overpriced and even possibly from puppy mills - they are selling for thousands of dollars.

And you're wrong about dog pricing (at least here). If you go to a rescue or shelter (the humane society for example) - the price is for an adoption. It doesn't matter if its a 'mutt' or a pure-bred. Real rescues (like those specializing in Pitt bulls, for example) do not sell their animals for the same price as a pet shop or breeder - they sell them from a much lower price - because they are less marketable)

Im not sure what the voter turnout has to do with the law and whether its logical or not. But by the numbers by which it passed the legislature, which was a
very high percentage - the voters must like the law.
The voter law was analogous to the number of people who actually pay attention to anything going on anywhere.

And if it's a popular and seemingly good soloutuon to this states problem what's the issue ?
paranoia that they'll somehow take our fish.?

And it's kinda a stretch to say you'll get a $2k dog at a shelter for $150. Yea. Prob happens but.... not like everyday. And if you do it's because a rich person dumped the dog into the already impacted surplus.

Real rescues aren't covered under the law , you can buy them at the rescue shelter. And you can buy pure reds at the breeder. Thes not that many high dollar pet shops in la nor where I live But there are a dozen places to get an animal in a couple square miles. Again. Volume.
High dollar animals always will be and you'll buy those from the same people you get them from now. The breeder.
 

saltyfilmfolks

Lights! Camera! Reef!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
28,739
Reaction score
40,932
Location
California
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You've lost me. The reason there are lots of pet stores in the Greater LA basin is because there are lots of people in that area. In New York City the problem is likely the same. In other areas its likely the same. That is also a huge geographical area compared to most cities. None of that has anything to do with the main points of the discussion which is - this law will not decrease the number of puppy mills (they will sell their puppies in other ways), it will hurt pet stores and legitimate breeders.

The most telling part of your debating is the questions you don't answer. Try this one again: If this law was about 'puppy mills' rather than pet stores/breeding pure-bred animals in general, why are cats and rabbits included? This is about animal activism disguised in a law against 'puppy mills'. It is a law against pet shops and breeders in general.
Include cats and rabbits. I just don't type it. Include it in every post. I guess my thumbs are tired.

It will impact puppy rabbit and cat mills(your welcome ) becuse instead of being able to will nilly supply a thousand stores they have to lurk in Craigslist. I'd say that's going to lower the sales immediately. Unless you belive Pepole aren't lazy and will hunt down those guys in the same numbers to buy a pet rather than going to a store to get the pet at the same price.
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,561
Reaction score
21,791
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
The voter law was analogous to the number of people who actually pay attention to anything going on anywhere.

And if it's a popular and seemingly good soloutuon to this states problem what's the issue ?
paranoia that they'll somehow take our fish.?

And it's kinda a stretch to say you'll get a $2k dog at a shelter for $150. Yea. Prob happens but.... not like everyday. And if you do it's because a rich person dumped the dog into the already impacted surplus.

Real rescues aren't covered under the law , you can buy them at the rescue shelter. And you can buy pure reds at the breeder. Thes not that many high dollar pet shops in la nor where I live But there are a dozen places to get an animal in a couple square miles. Again. Volume.
High dollar animals always will be and you'll buy those from the same people you get them from now. The breeder.

Check out your newspaper ads or craigslist and look at the amazing number of puppies for sale. I guarantee you you can get a 'pure-bred XXXXX' for 1/3 (or less) the price of a 'pure-bred XXXX' at a breeder. Puppy mills advertise... Backyard breeders (some of whom are clueless) advertise... Breeders have a list of clients BEFORE they decide to have a litter of puppies - and they charge a high price for the pedigree/temperement/show possibilities, etc. I will also guarantee you that some of the breeds (larger/more aggressive) are found shelters all the time for adoption.

I wasn't saying that rescues were covered under the law - I was saying that the only place pet shops can get puppies is either from 'rescues' or 'shelters' (That is the law)

And - as to whether its good for CA or not - wasn't the point - thats the benefit of states being able to make laws to what their citizens desire. Lots of cities have passed this type of law. There is a template for it on a website called animallaw. Its not an original idea. The discussion was whether the law makes sense or whether it helped the problem of puppy mills. You seemed to want to discuss it so I did:).

As to the aquarium question - and whether its paranoid to suggest that regulations are coming sooner than later to limit this hobby - I don't know. I will say that 10 years ago if you suggested that states would be banning not only dogs and cats BUT RABBITS from sale in pet shops you would also be considered paranoid/crazy. Here is a nice article from PETA

https://www.peta.org/issues/companion-animal-issues/companion-animals-factsheets/fish-tanks-thanks/

Hope you enjoy your aquarium screen saver:)
 

EleMental

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 14, 2017
Messages
65
Reaction score
113
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That's just alarmist.
Breeders are fine. Puppy mills no.
This law just encourages (forces) a recycling of sorts.

High vol animal sellers now have to use already available supplies rather than making new ones that will(as we already have evidence of this with the back log ) just be wasted and put back into the overstock.
Gross we're talking about puppies in that.

By not using using available supplies and constantly increasing surplus you have a storage problem for the surplus supplies.

In this case, we have to kill the surplus.

If folks would just learn to love pigs more as pets it would be ok.
But nobody wants puppy sausage for some reason.
I want puppy sausage! [emoji6]
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,561
Reaction score
21,791
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Include cats and rabbits. I just don't type it. Include it in every post. I guess my thumbs are tired. It will impact puppy rabbit and cat mills(your welcome ) becuse instead of being able to will nilly supply a thousand stores they have to lurk in Craigslist. I'd say that's going to lower the sales immediately. Unless you belive Pepole aren't lazy and will hunt down those guys in the same numbers to buy a pet rather than going to a store to get the pet at the same price.

HAHHAH - Thanks - by the way - the point about rabbits was not to make you type more - it was that I didnt realize there was a huge rabbit problem in California (Which suggested to me the the law is more about 'animal welfare' /closing pet shops than 'puppy mills'. )
I also admit - I dont live in CA. HERE, At the local stores including the 'big ones' (Petsmart and Petco) there are no dogs or cats available - except for 'adoption' and the pet stores sponsor the humane society or other group to come in and set up their adoption stuff for a weekend (for dogs). There are a couple 'pet shops' here - not many any more - that sell dogs and cats. There are animal activists that picket them - and have asked cities to close them down despite objections from the community at large. I dont know - I dont buy animals from those types of stores. (Btw in this area, Petsmart and Petco also no longer handle marine fish - though they do have supplies).

So - you may be correct that California has a larger problem than other states - but (tongue in cheek:)) with such an enlightened population - where does the demand for all of these animals come from :):) and that was meant to be a joke. :)
 

EleMental

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 14, 2017
Messages
65
Reaction score
113
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
HAHHAH - Thanks - by the way - the point about rabbits was not to make you type more - it was that I didnt realize there was a huge rabbit problem in California (Which suggested to me the the law is more about 'animal welfare' /closing pet shops than 'puppy mills'. )
I also admit - I dont live in CA. HERE, At the local stores including the 'big ones' (Petsmart and Petco) there are no dogs or cats available - except for 'adoption' and the pet stores sponsor the humane society or other group to come in and set up their adoption stuff for a weekend (for dogs). There are a couple 'pet shops' here - not many any more - that sell dogs and cats. There are animal activists that picket them - and have asked cities to close them down despite objections from the community at large. I dont know - I dont buy animals from those types of stores. (Btw in this area, Petsmart and Petco also no longer handle marine fish - though they do have supplies).

So - you may be correct that California has a larger problem than other states - but (tongue in cheek:)) with such an enlightened population - where does the demand for all of these animals come from :):) and that was meant to be a joke. :)
I think it mirrors Swift's, A Modest Proposal...but for pets lol. Or maybe I'm over thinking it (likely)
 

ludnix

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Messages
1,282
Reaction score
1,643
Location
Fortuna, California
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I thought this was already state law, I guess I'm just in one of the more progressive areas in the state. Having worked in a local pet shop, I think this is a good idea. Time will tell if it's effective in reducing puppy mills, but regardless it was always great to see people coming in to adopt cats and dogs that were brought in from the local shelters. The pet shop didn't feel a sting from the loss of sales, they are going to come back to buy the dog food, toys, bedding, clothing etc. anyways.
 

saltyfilmfolks

Lights! Camera! Reef!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
28,739
Reaction score
40,932
Location
California
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
HAHHAH - Thanks - by the way - the point about rabbits was not to make you type more - it was that I didnt realize there was a huge rabbit problem in California (Which suggested to me the the law is more about 'animal welfare' /closing pet shops than 'puppy mills'. )
I also admit - I dont live in CA. HERE, At the local stores including the 'big ones' (Petsmart and Petco) there are no dogs or cats available - except for 'adoption' and the pet stores sponsor the humane society or other group to come in and set up their adoption stuff for a weekend (for dogs). There are a couple 'pet shops' here - not many any more - that sell dogs and cats. There are animal activists that picket them - and have asked cities to close them down despite objections from the community at large. I dont know - I dont buy animals from those types of stores. (Btw in this area, Petsmart and Petco also no longer handle marine fish - though they do have supplies).

So - you may be correct that California has a larger problem than other states - but (tongue in cheek:)) with such an enlightened population - where does the demand for all of these animals come from :):) and that was meant to be a joke. :)
Haha. I'm glad you enjoy a spirited debate. I do too.
And no they are just folks here.

I agree , extremes are everywhere.
Problem with those is there becomes no limit. I.e. No zoos. No leather shoes no pets.
If you closed My zoo (San Diego ) you'd close one of the largest international research facilities in the country.
And I can see sea world from here.
No more breeding programs or study. Extremeists won there IMO.
They did take away your fish.
 

XNavyDiver

Insightful answer loading... please wait.
View Badges
Joined
Jun 3, 2017
Messages
1,392
Reaction score
2,752
Location
Sierra Vista, AZ
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
LOL:). I agree. But - IMHO - its nearly as kooky to say 'why breed pure-bred dogs when we're putting others to sleep' ( I dont know if you felt that way or if you were playing devils advocate). It is exactly the same logic. (People spend thousands of dollars on dogs and cats (*and apparently in CA - Rabbits). People give dogs that are 10 years old chemotherapy for cancer (even if their life expectancy is 11 years). It would be easy for some to suggest that it makes more sense to support human beings rather than pets.

Dog breeding is a hobby (just as reef keeping), Most dog breeders don't make money, they screen for genetic diseases and they ensure that their puppies go to good homes (they dont sell to the first person from whom they get an offer).

Again - no one (except the puppy mill owners) support puppy mills. Since the discussion was about the law in CA - I continue to say the law will not decrease the number of homeless/unhealthy dogs or cats. It will encourage (as another person said) puppy mills skirting the rules and selling their animals some other way - or to other states. In the meantime, pet shops (some bad some good - I don't know the numbers) will be hurt. Reputable breeders that sell animals to those stores will be hurt.

Lastly - well intentioned laws like this one in CA - will one day lead to the end of reef keeping in the US.

And knowing my luck it will come 1 week after my tank decides it will grow acro. lol
 

saltyfilmfolks

Lights! Camera! Reef!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
28,739
Reaction score
40,932
Location
California
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Just for the record, not that I disagree with your general points, but Petco hasn't sold dogs, cats, or rabbits for many years. They have local rescues do adoptions out of the stores only same as Petsmart.
Just a big chain reference really.
The fact that most big pet shops actually don't sell some of these animals actually backs support for the law.
It points out the sale practices are not economicly sound.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Mastering the art of locking and unlocking water pathways: What type of valves do you have on your aquarium plumbing?

  • Ball valves.

    Votes: 68 52.3%
  • Gate valves.

    Votes: 67 51.5%
  • Check valves.

    Votes: 33 25.4%
  • None.

    Votes: 29 22.3%
  • Other.

    Votes: 9 6.9%
Back
Top