It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)
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Paul B
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This is about keeping fish as healthy as they can be. Quarantined fish can never be as healthy as fish with a functioning immune system. I know all about the Russian Roulette thing and I can't even speak Russian but I did date a Russian girl once. I don't now of any quarantined tanks older than mine or quarantined fish older than mine so maybe playing Russian Roulette is the secret.
As for Gweeds adding sick fish, that would also do nothing to my fish as it hasn't in decades. That would only kill quarantined fish. Diseases are a non issue for my tank, (so far)
Paul B
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I am also a Geezer so my days are numbered, but even if my tank crashed tomorrow from black ich, white ich, dropsy, flukes, flounders, fungus, TB, velvet, crushed velvet and Bubonic Plague, I would still consider it a success. How long does a tank have to remain healthy with spawning fish to be considered a success? 5 years? 10 years? 30 years or more?
OP
OP
Paul, we know the answer to that... until it crashes lol.
Newb73
Valuable Member
I don't think QT does what people think it does.
My tank can go 6 months looking perfect then one fish will get classic marine ich for a day or two.
IF a QT period is only 4 to 6 weeks I am not sure how much that is supposed to accomplish.
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
Marine Ich has a known life cycle and known ways to eliminate it. In a proper setup Ich can be completely eliminated from a fish in 9 days. Velvet can be eliminated in less time than that. This is actually very easy and reliable to do.
The hard part is making sure that EVERYTHING is quarantined and that no cross contamination occurs.
OP
OP
If you've QTd properly and treated prophylactically, you wouldn't have ich... this whole 'experiment' is more about an alternative to QTing, not to bash QTing. For the vast majority, as @Brew12 mentioned recently here, proper QT is absolutely the best way forward. Both methods are worthless if not done 100%.
Newb73
Valuable Member
If disease stay dormant for 6 months to a year...in the sense that the fish appear healthy and without any observable signs of illness....then there is no way a 4 to 8 week observation period can guarantee anything.
You could pass the QT period with flying colors and still be introducing pathogens....
That is unless you blow dry your fish and let them cook on the sidewalk in 100 degree weather for a day or so before transferring them to the DT.
OP
OP
That's why you treat prophylactically... whether the ich is visible or just hiding in the gills, it still has to complete its lifecycle. TTM, CP and copper will ensure that can't happen...
Observation will do nothing to treat any disease...
Newb73
Valuable Member
Biology is biology and much about what we know about pathophysiology in humans is no doubt applicable to most marine life.
We used to think about prophylactic treatment in medicine the way you do about fish....in the 70s that is.
We have since learned we were very wrong and making patients sicker.
If you think all strains of the pathogens are susceptible to various treatments you are sadly mistaken and the indiscriminate use of the agents may in fact make matters worse.
1) It breeds antimicrobial resistance strains, and I assume copper resistant strains are also possible.
2) It has the potential to kill off the good flora which act in a symbiotic manner and are beneficial to the immune system, thereby allowing the pathogenic organisms to over take the specimen. (Straight micro-biology)
3) The specimen will have reduced immunity for up to 8 weeks after such treatment due to #2. (See research on the reinfection rate including sepsis status post abx tx)
4) It will breed a much higher occurrence of the really resistant pathogens in your home systems, shipping and QT channels etc. (Like healthcare acquired infections).
I would virtually guarantee that indiscriminate use of these agents by collectors had made fish deaths rise, not fall.
Newb73
Valuable Member
Most likely what is happening with many fish deaths is that collection practices using these agents are effectively killing all the normal flora normally living on and in the fish making them extremely disease susceptible and as soon as they encounter the lfs, shipping channels or home system.....BAM! ....Disease becomes observable.
Like dumping a newborn infant into the infectious wing of a 3rd world nursing home.....
With proper nutrition and husbandry, the specimens would be much better off.
I am not sure dumping them right into yet another immunocompromise inducing "stew"should be the model and paradigm of responsible reef keeping.
But what do i know....i just teach doctors and keep these fish.....
Like dumping a newborn infant into the infectious wing of a 3rd world nursing home.....
With proper nutrition and husbandry, the specimens would be much better off.
I am not sure dumping them right into yet another immunocompromise inducing "stew"should be the model and paradigm of responsible reef keeping.
But what do i know....i just teach doctors and keep these fish.....
I am not sure if to cry or laugh at some of the posts above. Paul, me, and thee must be extremely lucky marine fishkeepers. I have been in this hobby approximately 36years after all these years and I have not had a serious outbreak of disease over the last 25 years when I changed, the way I kept marines. WOW! some luck hey? We should go to Las Vegas together and play the tables with such luck and become millionaires in a matter of minutes. However I am not the only one in the UK with such luck, I have a good friend who has been keeping marines a similar period of time to me and guess what? ... Yep, his fish don't get sick and he doesn't quarantine either, how utterly confusing.
I am still trying to figure out what we are doing wrong. Maybe I need to set up a QT tank, add copper and other medications I don't know and to be honest am too old to and you can't teach an old dog new tricks right?. I know for a fact I have introduced fish with WS most recently a couple of those itch magnets Royal grammas which I saw a couple of spots on them but within 48 hours they had stopped flicking against the sand and appeared spot free. How that happened I haven't a clue apart from what I have been doing for the last 25 years. I would never suggest anybody follows what I and a few others do however as they might not have the same luck as we have had for so many years. My tank is doomed along with Pauls and my friends.
Perhaps we should give up while we are winning. ;Jawdrop
I am still trying to figure out what we are doing wrong. Maybe I need to set up a QT tank, add copper and other medications I don't know and to be honest am too old to and you can't teach an old dog new tricks right?. I know for a fact I have introduced fish with WS most recently a couple of those itch magnets Royal grammas which I saw a couple of spots on them but within 48 hours they had stopped flicking against the sand and appeared spot free. How that happened I haven't a clue apart from what I have been doing for the last 25 years. I would never suggest anybody follows what I and a few others do however as they might not have the same luck as we have had for so many years. My tank is doomed along with Pauls and my friends.
Perhaps we should give up while we are winning. ;Jawdrop
OP
OP
Biology is biology and much about what we know about pathophysiology in humans is no doubt applicable to most marine life.
We used to think about prophylactic treatment in medicine the way you do about fish....in the 70s that is.
We have since learned we were very wrong and making patients sicker.
If you think all strains of the pathogens are susceptible to various treatments you are sadly mistaken and the indiscriminate use of the agents may in fact make matters worse.
1) It breeds antimicrobial resistance strains, and I assume copper resistant strains are also possible.
2) It has the potential to kill off the good flora which act in a symbiotic manner and are beneficial to the immune system, thereby allowing the pathogenic organisms to over take the specimen. (Straight micro-biology)
3) The specimen will have reduced immunity for up to 8 weeks after such treatment due to #2. (See research on the reinfection rate including sepsis status post abx tx)
4) It will breed a much higher occurrence of the really resistant pathogens in your home systems, shipping and QT channels etc. (Like healthcare acquired infections).
I would virtually guarantee that indiscriminate use of these agents by collectors had made fish deaths rise, not fall.
Agreed, at least in part... I find it difficult to believe that any animal will become copper resistant in the lifetime of this hobby, given the physically damaging effect it has at cellular level. That said, there is a mayfly in Japan which is totally copper resistant, so never say never!
The rest of your post I agree with entirely... one of the reasons TTM is such a good method of ich eradication and also one of the reasons it's important to begin to establish protocols for creating immunity from disease.
I guess my point is that for the vast majority and for the majority of time, the accepted quarantine principles and protocols work and is 'easier' than imbuing immunity.
Certainly the resistance to antibiotics is massive, to the world in general, not just this hobby and for sure we need alternatives.
I spent several years studying biofilm resistance (physical, biological and chemical) and the speed at which a community of bacteria can develop resistance to antibiotics is frankly terrifying!
Hopefully it's clear from this thread that I am absolutely in favour of providing the right conditions for fishes immune systems to do what it should do. IMO it's a far more sustainable, natural, ethical and beneficial way to run a reef tank than relying on medications, for the reasons you state and many more.
I do stand by the point that to do either this method, or the traditional QT method you must do it 100%, to do anything else just introduces a level of risk which isn't unavoidable and certainly contributes to the evolution of resistance to medications of all types.
Newb73
Valuable Member
And India has now managed to breed versions of tuberculosis which are 100% immune to all treatments, something we never thought possibly.
It jumped to China and a few travelers/immigrants have been diagnosed stateside.
As far as copper never say never...we have discovered viable micro organisms living in volvanic sulfur laden hot springs as well as encapsulated deep in the artic ice..., and in virtually every chemical known to man....
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OP
OP
Agreed... believe me, we are on the same side of this argument!
From your original post it seemed to me that you were observing new arrivals for 4-6 weeks and assuming that not seeing observable disease meant the fish was disease free... combine that with your user name and I jumped to conclusions that you were, in fact, something of a novice. My apologies!
I do think that as Brew mentioned earlier, newbies to the hobby and unversed in disease control / biology, prophylactic treatment provides the best chance of running a successful reef tank and is the 'easiest' option... that does not make it necessarily the best option.
Newb73
Valuable Member
Being a newb is a mindset.
1) Never stop learning
2) Always be skeptical of existing info and open minded to new things.
3) Always be skeptical of new things and be mindful of what experience suggests.
4) Realize what you think you know may be wrong.
The best of the best are perpetual newbs.
The ones who think they have finally learned everything have recently lost touch.
.....Well.....it has a better ring to it than "**** i picked the wrong username"
LOL - and it's a very true and useful philosophy.
When I kept marines in the 70s and 80s, I never had a problem with diseases, so never bothered to learn much about them. When I started up again two years ago, my tank was riddled with ich by the second month, and couldn't add a single fish to the tank. That's when I started quarantining, treating prophylactically, and learning how to beat the bugs back.
Must not forget though, that's not how they do it in the Coral Sea, and to that end, I do strive to maintain my fish in a healthful way, feeding a diversity of foods and offering challenges to their muscles by way of changing currents and flow, real ocean liverock and plenty of room to move.
~Bruce, by way of subscribing to this thread . . .
When I kept marines in the 70s and 80s, I never had a problem with diseases, so never bothered to learn much about them. When I started up again two years ago, my tank was riddled with ich by the second month, and couldn't add a single fish to the tank. That's when I started quarantining, treating prophylactically, and learning how to beat the bugs back.
Must not forget though, that's not how they do it in the Coral Sea, and to that end, I do strive to maintain my fish in a healthful way, feeding a diversity of foods and offering challenges to their muscles by way of changing currents and flow, real ocean liverock and plenty of room to move.
~Bruce, by way of subscribing to this thread . . .
Regarding prophylactic treatment with medicines / chemicals - my point of view is as usual – If it not broken – do not fix it
Regarding treatment with proper food, good water quality, relaxing environment and so on – for sure
According what we know about ich (marine or fresh) My experiences are – of 10 cases of outbreak – 4 maybe is typical – the rest of the are more or less atypical and do not fit into any pattern. I have seen it to many times to believe that we know everything about the life cycles of these parasites. I´m 100 % convinced that at least fresh water ich can have some resting stages inside the fish. What I have seen of the marine ich – there is cases that you can´t explain with the normal theories.
For me – the best way to have my fishes healthy is to have an aquarium in good biological shape – that’s include gravel, dirty holes, not too much cleaning, DSB, filter feeders (they love free-swimming parasites) and as many different organisms as you can get.
During my 11 year with saltwater – I have noted sickness one time! A new small clown that have been hunted got ich and was middle infested then I notice it. Lot of other fishes in the aquaria. I took the Clown out and run TTM until it was free of parasites (7 days). Back in the aquarium – nothing more.
Sincerely Lasse
Regarding treatment with proper food, good water quality, relaxing environment and so on – for sure
According what we know about ich (marine or fresh) My experiences are – of 10 cases of outbreak – 4 maybe is typical – the rest of the are more or less atypical and do not fit into any pattern. I have seen it to many times to believe that we know everything about the life cycles of these parasites. I´m 100 % convinced that at least fresh water ich can have some resting stages inside the fish. What I have seen of the marine ich – there is cases that you can´t explain with the normal theories.
For me – the best way to have my fishes healthy is to have an aquarium in good biological shape – that’s include gravel, dirty holes, not too much cleaning, DSB, filter feeders (they love free-swimming parasites
) and as many different organisms as you can get.During my 11 year with saltwater – I have noted sickness one time! A new small clown that have been hunted got ich and was middle infested then I notice it. Lot of other fishes in the aquaria. I took the Clown out and run TTM until it was free of parasites (7 days). Back in the aquarium – nothing more.
Sincerely Lasse
Newb73
Valuable Member
Perhaps that 3-5 inch thick bed of chaeto ladden with arthropods known to eat smaller animals and parasites feasting on 1,000 gph helps to?????Regarding prophylactic treatment with medicines / chemicals - my point of view is as usual – If it not broken – do not fix it
Regarding treatment with proper food, good water quality, relaxing environment and so on – for sure
According what we know about ich (marine or fresh) My experiences are – of 10 cases of outbreak – 4 maybe is typical – the rest of the are more or less atypical and do not fit into any pattern. I have seen it to many times to believe that we know everything about the life cycles of these parasites. I´m 100 % convinced that at least fresh water ich can have some resting stages inside the fish. What I have seen of the marine ich – there is cases that you can´t explain with the normal theories.
For me – the best way to have my fishes healthy is to have an aquarium in good biological shape – that’s include gravel, dirty holes, not too much cleaning, DSB, filter feeders (they love free-swimming parasites
During my 11 year with saltwater – I have noted sickness one time! A new small clown that have been hunted got ich and was middle infested then I notice it. Lot of other fishes in the aquaria. I took the Clown out and run TTM until it was free of parasites (7 days). Back in the aquarium – nothing more.
Sincerely Lasse
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