It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Humblefish]

Quarantined fish can never be as healthy as fish with a functioning immune system.

QTing a fish doesn't disable it's natural immune system. It's like when you're sick, go to the doc and get a Rx for antibiotics. 10 days worth of antibiotics won't destroy your immune system. Just take some probiotics to put back the good bacteria if you're really worried about it.

 

[4FordFamily]

LOL - and it's a very true and useful philosophy.

When I kept marines in the 70s and 80s, I never had a problem with diseases, so never bothered to learn much about them. When I started up again two years ago, my tank was riddled with ich by the second month, and couldn't add a single fish to the tank. That's when I started quarantining, treating prophylactically, and learning how to beat the bugs back.

Must not forget though, that's not how they do it in the Coral Sea, and to that end, I do strive to maintain my fish in a healthful way, feeding a diversity of foods and offering challenges to their muscles by way of changing currents and flow, real ocean liverock and plenty of room to move.

~Bruce, by way of subscribing to this thread . . .

My sentiment is the same. For those restocking tanks in today’s world with the exponentially increased prevalence of parasitic infections, namely velvet running rampant — the old ways of doing things wouldn’t work for the vast majority, unfortunately. The disease forum here is riddled with evidence of this.

 

[Newb73]

QTing a fish doesn't disable it's natural immune system. It's like when you're sick, go to the doc and get a Rx for antibiotics. 10 days worth of antibiotics won't destroy your immune system. Just take some probiotics to put back the good bacteria if you're really worried about it.

See my post above about the WELL DOCUMENTED negative effects on the immune system of antimicrobial therapy.

I teach this stuff to physicians by vocation ...

 

[4FordFamily]

See my post above about the WELL DOCUMENTED negative effects on the immune system of antimicrobial therapy.

I teach this stuff to physicians by vocation ...

Careful not to make this completely black and white though — its a false equivalency that antibiotics marginally impact the immune system, or at least that the benefits never outweigh the risks (which was not your claim). Sure, prolonged antibiotic use would absolutely have a marginally negative impact on the immune system. I wouldn’t need educated on that!

 

[Newb73]

Careful not to make this completely black and white though — its a false equivalency that antibiotics marginally impact the immune system, or at least that the benefits never outweigh the risks (which was not your claim). Sure, prolonged antibiotic use would absolutely have a marginally negative impact on the immune system. I wouldn’t need taught on that!

Its more than marginal.

It is common for routine abx to induce fungal infections and c.diff. Then it gets worse. The readmission rate after treatment of C. Diff with full blown sepsis is 400% that of the control group.

Antibiotics are absolutely a life saving necessary evil when you are actively infected but should be a second resort abd absolutely shouldn't be used as indiscriminate prophylaxis as they can and will induce a worsened state.

Even in positively infected people, depending on the organism....the only thing effectively keeping balance are the natural flora.

If you prescribe a mild first line broad spectrum antibiotic you run the risk of killing off normal flora and removing the one obstacle that had kept the pathogen somewhat in check. The result is the patient appears to crash and get much worse after first line treatment...in some cases fatally so.

The result of this is that physicians often start by prescribing the more toxic or narrow spectrum abx in combination in the elderly population which solves the immediate issue of selecting for resistance while greatly contributing to the 2nd...AMR (anti-microbial resistance). 50% of antibiotics are over prescribed.

As i previously said, even when you survive the immediate insult you are effectively immunocompromised for up to 8 weeks by eliminating normal flora.

Probiotics only help replace organisms in the gut (and not very effectively) but do nothing for the respiratory system, skin, eyes, mucous membranes etc.

Does it really happen in fish?

Well a pathogen is a pathogen and while different species are susceptible to different organisms the basic micro-biology is the same.

There is a reason the FDA outlawed antibacterial soaps.

 

[Humblefish]

See my post above about the WELL DOCUMENTED negative effects on the immune system of antimicrobial therapy.

I teach this stuff to physicians by vocation ...

There's no question that antibiotics (and other medications) have negative side effects including immune system suppression. But that's not the same as a nonfunctioning immune system, and a suppressed immune system is a necessary evil when faced with a life threatening pathogen (like velvet) that can best be eradicated via medication.

 

[Newb73]

There's no question that antibiotics (and other medications) have negative side effects including immune system suppression. But that's not the same as a nonfunctioning immune system, and a suppressed immune system is a necessary evil when faced with a life threatening pathogen (like velvet) that can best be eradicated via medication.

Agreed

 

[Lasse]

Perhaps that 3-5 inch thick bed of chaeto ladden with arthropods known to eat smaller animals and parasites feasting on 1,000 gph helps to?????

Yes – forgotten that

When I planned my new aquaria 2 years ago – I try to put together all of my experiences in one piece from a holistic way of view. My system is not a simple system – it’s complicated with much of technique but I try to have biological, holistic point of view as a solid ground. I also try to construct it in a way there is lot of possibilities to change the way of working – because you never know there your experiences direct you. For me – there exist very few organism that is a pest or plague – but monoculture contra polyculture define the question of pest or plague. When I introduce an organism – of cause I hope that it will thrive in my environment but mostly I let my system chose and do not change to much in order to favour the newcomer.

The fuge was from the beginning constructed for nutrient export, nutrient and trace element stabilizer and production place for pods. The reason you mentioned was not on the drawing board – but – for sure – its now.

Another use of my fuge that I discover rather recently is that I can use it as a place for introduction of new fishes and organisms. And also discover unexpected behaviour from new organism. The introduction of 3 dancing shrimps (Rhynchocinetes durbanensis) seems to total ripe out my population of (probably) caulerpa prolifera – at least the population of this macro algae just disappear from my fuge after introduction of this shrimp.

Using the fuge as the first place for newcomers seems have helped me in the introduction of two pipefishes into my system. 4 weeks after the purchase – they seems totally adapted to my aquarium – always looking for food.

Discussions like this also helps in understanding what I´m doing – there is inputs that you – in spite of a long life – never has think of.

I think that we that have succeeded with system without QTing has one thing in common – we try to make truly biological driven systems with a large diversity.

In another thread it has been mentioned that the unspecific defends is the most important for fish. That´s in line with my experiences but you can´t say that it is not independent of trigging factors. My experiences is that a steady exposure for microorganisms will make the production of molecules involved in the unspecific defense system steady and rather high. If something happen – the contra attack will come fast and with full intensity. I was working in a type of waste water treatment plant for many years. After a couple of months – I notice that my response of an infection of cold change drastically. I got sick – but suddenly, intensively, high fever but during a short time. Mostly only for some hours – most of the times I was fit for fight in the evening. Now 17 years later I still can react that way but I´m more normal in my responses nowdays.

If the fish not need to have a lot of molecules involved in the inherent defence system – they will not have that. It cost energy. If they do not have a lot of watch dogs in their system – they have to produce that. It take time – and time can be critical, very critical. If you have the fishes in to clean environment they will adapt their production of molecules involved in the inherent immune system to the minimum. Best situation is a steady, low intense fight between evil and good. As the scouts say – be prepared!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Reef Monkie]

There's no question that antibiotics (and other medications) have negative side effects including immune system suppression. But that's not the same as a nonfunctioning immune system, and a suppressed immune system is a necessary evil when faced with a life threatening pathogen (like velvet) that can best be eradicated via medication.

Isn't one of the issues we have when discussing QT, immunity, and pathogens that we are lumping together bacterial, viral, fungal, and parasitical organism like velvet which are 'animals'? It is one thing to suggest that one can have a healthy bacterial 'soup' in ones tank, or within the guts of a animal we keep that helps prevent dangerous bacterial infections but it is something else to think that tank conditions or immunity alone can prevent all pathogens from killing fish.

 

[Paul B]

QTing a fish doesn't disable it's natural immune system. It's like when you're sick, go to the doc and get a Rx for antibiotics. 10 days worth of antibiotics won't destroy your immune system. Just take some probiotics to put back the good bacteria if you're really worried about it.

Humble old Buddy. To test that, lets put fish with ich, velvet and a few other diseases in your tank and mine and see which fish have functioning immune systems. I will even go first.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Isn't one of the issues we have when discussing QT, immunity, and pathogens that we are lumping together bacterial, viral, fungal, and parasitical organism like velvet which are 'animals'? It is one thing to suggest that one can have a healthy bacterial 'soup' in ones tank, or within the guts of a animal we keep that helps prevent dangerous bacterial infections but it is something else to think that tank conditions or immunity alone can prevent all pathogens from killing fish.

To a certain degree yes. IMO diet has a huge influence on the immune system of fishes, moreso than in humans. Not only does good nutrition help build a good innate immune system and ingesting pathogens helps build a good adaptive immune system but fish also use DHA to develop a 'shield' against parasites such as ich and velvet. This is subcutaneous and literally poisons parasites which bury into the skin. Low levels of omega 3 in the diet, as with most prepared foods equals lower resistance to parasites. I also believe this is the key to conditions such as HLLE.

Bacterial and viral infections are fended off generally by a combination of the 'human like' innate immune system (ie excluding the DHA layer and the mucous layer) at a cellular level and the adaptive immune system which manufactures disease specific antigens following exposure.

Fungal infections are spectacularly rare in marine aquaria as far as I know.

 

[Gweeds1980]

If we think about it logically, there are 3 major differences between fish in the ocean and fish in an aquarium:
1. Less space - this can lead to a much higher concentration of parasites than a fish would ever encounter in the wild. In theory at least, if your fish are resistant, as they are in the wild, your parasite levels should be similar to the wild as they do not have the opportunity to multiply to large numbers in the first place. An artificially high density of fish in an aquarium will contravene this somewhat.
2. Predators - in the wild, sick fish get killed and eaten (or even eaten and then killed). Thus they are unable to spread that disease and as a bonus the fish which has eaten them gets some of the pathogen ingested and can then produce antigens or boost DHA levels etc.
3. Diet - fish in the wild never eat flake or pellet foods... they don't eat irradiated frozen foods, or romaine lettuce for that matter. They eat stuff that is either alive, or that was alive very recently, along with all the parasites, bacteria and other things clinging onto it.

So, in captivity we can try and replicate this as much as possible by keeping a lid on parasite levels using some form of sterilisation, by removing sick fish (and preferably feeding dead, diseased fish back to them) and by providing a diet which is as close as possible to their wild diet... ie sourced from the ocean, fresh where possible and not processed and high in omega 3.

If we do all of that, by default the fishes immune systems will be as strong as they are in the wild. Sure, the odd fish may get ich or velvet or whatever from time to time, but not the the extent that it will kill them. My heniochus is living proof of this and is documented in this very thread. 12 days in total with velvet symptoms (arguably 2 strains or possibly ich and then velvet... unsure) did it die? No. Did any other fish show any symptoms? No.

In a traditionally quarantined system, the slightest whiff of velvet or brook is often enough to wipe every fish out in days or even hours.

From almost every standpoint; ethical, sustainability, moral and biological IMO having a tank which develops proper immunity and resistance through a more natural environment and diet is hands down the right thing to do.

 

[Reef Monkie]

To a certain degree yes. IMO diet has a huge influence on the immune system of fishes, moreso than in humans. Not only does good nutrition help build a good innate immune system and ingesting pathogens helps build a good adaptive immune system but fish also use DHA to develop a 'shield' against parasites such as ich and velvet. This is subcutaneous and literally poisons parasites which bury into the skin. Low levels of omega 3 in the diet, as with most prepared foods equals lower resistance to parasites. I also believe this is the key to conditions such as HLLE.

Bacterial and viral infections are fended off generally by a combination of the 'human like' innate immune system (ie excluding the DHA layer and the mucous layer) at a cellular level and the adaptive immune system which manufactures disease specific antigens following exposure.

Fungal infections are spectacularly rare in marine aquaria as far as I know.

I can't really argue against diet having a role in health/immune systems, I am not a expert after all, but I thought that it was confirmed that (activated) carbon dust was a causative agent for HLLE, if that is true I don't understand how a DHA 'shield' could protect against that condition. See this article in Advanced Aquarist for further information on the role of activated carbon dust in HLLE.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I can't really argue against diet having a role in health/immune systems, I am not a expert after all, but I thought that it was confirmed that (activated) carbon dust was a causative agent for HLLE, if that is true I don't understand how a DHA 'shield' could protect against that condition. See this article in Advanced Aquarist for further information on the role of activated carbon dust in HLLE.

Sorry, wasnt clear, more that omega 3 is key in the recovery from HLLE. That lipid layer is destroyed by the erosion and omega 3 will help to build that back up quicker.

 

[atoll]

Humble old Buddy. To test that, lets put fish with ich, velvet and a few other diseases in your tank and mine and see which fish have functioning immune systems. I will even go first.

An offer that can't be refused

 

[4FordFamily]

@Paul B that’s a good offer. Let’s have both of you with 3 tangs, all acanthurus, and then conduct your experiment. The result will be the same.

If you’re willing to rehome and treat the fish when they become coated immediately I’ll even fund the fish for your tank!

Your fish selection plays a MAJOR role in how all of this works, or doesn’t.

 

[Newb73]

Isn't one of the issues we have when discussing QT, immunity, and pathogens that we are lumping together bacterial, viral, fungal, and parasitical organism like velvet which are 'animals'? It is one thing to suggest that one can have a healthy bacterial 'soup' in ones tank, or within the guts of a animal we keep that helps prevent dangerous bacterial infections but it is something else to think that tank conditions or immunity alone can prevent all pathogens from killing fish.

Agreed.

The fundamentals of bacterial immunity do not apply for parasites in humans and probably work quite differently in fish.

However i suspect there is a subset of overlap wherein the parasite doesnt kill the fish but a secondary bacterial infection that attacks after a parasite infestation ultimately results in death.

Usually biological driven creatures do not succumb to parasitic infection but rather live with them....albeit, in a compromised state.

Be that as it may, having a healthy cultured flora may very well be providing some level of defense against patasites in a water based system where the biology by nature is much more directly communication with the environment, in the same way that the coating on the skin itself......or lack thereof has been documented to make fish either more or less vulnerable.

 

[Newb73]

If we think about it logically, there are 3 major differences between fish in the ocean and fish in an aquarium:
1. Less space - this can lead to a much higher concentration of parasites than a fish would ever encounter in the wild. In theory at least, if your fish are resistant, as they are in the wild, your parasite levels should be similar to the wild as they do not have the opportunity to multiply to large numbers in the first place. An artificially high density of fish in an aquarium will contravene this somewhat.
2. Predators - in the wild, sick fish get killed and eaten (or even eaten and then killed). Thus they are unable to spread that disease and as a bonus the fish which has eaten them gets some of the pathogen ingested and can then produce antigens or boost DHA levels etc.
3. Diet - fish in the wild never eat flake or pellet foods... they don't eat irradiated frozen foods, or romaine lettuce for that matter. They eat stuff that is either alive, or that was alive very recently, along with all the parasites, bacteria and other things clinging onto it.

So, in captivity we can try and replicate this as much as possible by keeping a lid on parasite levels using some form of sterilisation, by removing sick fish (and preferably feeding dead, diseased fish back to them) and by providing a diet which is as close as possible to their wild diet... ie sourced from the ocean, fresh where possible and not processed and high in omega 3.

If we do all of that, by default the fishes immune systems will be as strong as they are in the wild. Sure, the odd fish may get ich or velvet or whatever from time to time, but not the the extent that it will kill them. My heniochus is living proof of this and is documented in this very thread. 12 days in total with velvet symptoms (arguably 2 strains or possibly ich and then velvet... unsure) did it die? No. Did any other fish show any symptoms? No.

In a traditionally quarantined system, the slightest whiff of velvet or brook is often enough to wipe every fish out in days or even hours.

From almost every standpoint; ethical, sustainability, moral and biological IMO having a tank which develops proper immunity and resistance through a more natural environment and diet is hands down the right thing to do.

That is why my fish get frozen krill, frozen mysis, fozen brine and nori and extreme seaweed daily.

I don't make my own grocery store concoction like some of you and I've no doubt that is even better.

At this point NO marine aquarium should be fed a diet of only flake and pellets, i thought that level of husbandry went away in the 90s.

As far as keeping the numbers of pathogens reduced.......both Paul and I run a fairly healthy does of inhospitable ozone 24/7 and Lasse uses peroxide in his tank......might not be a coincidence.

@Paul B that’s a good offer. Let’s have both of you with 3 tangs, all acanthurus, and then conduct your experiment. The result will be the same.

If you’re willing to rehome and treat the fish when they become coated immediately I’ll even find the fish for your tank!

Your fish selection plays a MAJOR role in how all of this works, or doesn’t.

Related.....

I have 4 already....5 if you count the fox. One is an achilles. I am thinking of adding a naso.

Now i am only about 11 months in, but on 3 ocassions my achilles has gotten spots and scratched after introducing fish and on all 3 occasions the achilles recovered witin 24 hours. Conventional wisdom is that an achilles "can never recover" so there is that.....

Paul has already kept a achilles 5 years using his method...and considers 5 years a failure.....

It is true though that when this occurs, i turn my ozone on turbo and increase the flow in my tank to about 40x turnover. I also feed about 6 or 7 times a day any time a new fish is introduced.

Do i have loss? Yes....my bluethroat went rogue and killed a kole then jumped to his death (even w a canopy) and my orchid went after a bi-color....but none of that was dz related.

I can't really argue against diet having a role in health/immune systems, I am not a expert after all, but I thought that it was confirmed that (activated) carbon dust was a causative agent for HLLE, if that is true I don't understand how a DHA 'shield' could protect against that condition. See this article in Advanced Aquarist for further information on the role of activated carbon dust in HLLE.

Depends. Chemi pure is worse. Fluval clearmax does it. Both myself and Randy Holmes Farley have documented it when you combine ozone use with black diamond. There aren't too many stories of HLL when using Rox .8 in larger (>150g) systems that i know of?

I don't skim though so i don't know if that factors in.

 

[atoll]

That is why my fish get frozen krill, frozen mysis, fozen brine and nori and extreme seaweed daily.

I don't make mu own grocery store concoction like some of you and ive no doubt that is even better.

I also feed the above along with my home made foods most of which I buy fresh from the fish market, process then freeze for use late.

At this point NO marine aquarium shoulf be fed a diet of only flake and pellets, i thought that level of husbandry went away in the 90s.

I concur.

As far as keeping the numbers of pathogens reduced.......both Paul and I run a fairly healthy does of inhospitable ozone 24/7 and Lasse uses peroxide in his tank......might not be a coincidence.

I used O3 back in the day but now use 2 x Oxyator As in my sump which work in a not too dissimilar adding O2, increasing the redox in a similar way to ozone.

Do i have loss? Yes....my bluethroat went rogue and killed a kole then jumped to his death (even w a canopy) and my orchid went after a bi-color....but none of that was dz related.

Of course, we get losses due to natural causes and carper surfing but not from the common diseases like WS and velvet. I had a yellow tang that managed to lodge itself in a large hystrix coral and have had the odd fish carpet surf even had a couple die within a week from what I strongly suspect was drug caught but that has been a rare occurrence and most fish live a long disease free life regularly spawning.

 

[tj w]

@Paul B that’s a good offer. Let’s have both of you with 3 tangs, all acanthurus, and then conduct your experiment. The result will be the same.

If you’re willing to rehome and treat the fish when they become coated immediately I’ll even find the fish for your tank!

Your fish selection plays a MAJOR role in how all of this works, or doesn’t.

This right here^^^^^. Fish selection certainly plays a huge role. Especially when adding multiple acanthurus tangs to a system.