It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Cabinetman]

300 gallon plywood tank

 

[Gweeds1980]

I have a theory on this

I thought you might! There was a study on why tangs are more susceptible buy I can't find it online :/

In basic terms, they have a thinner mucous layer and less DHA in their skin. The latter is due to naturally feeding on a diet lower in DHA than most other fish. The kicker is the thin mucous layer... this seems to be largely down to the fact that in the wild they spend no more than a few seconds in the same spot, so parasites have little chance to attack. They also tend to form shoals as you know which gives them an element of safety in numbers from parasites.

In aquaria, if fed a diet high in DHA they can maintain 'normal' levels in their skin, but the mucous thickness doesn't change.

 

[atoll]

Like Paul I am not a big tang fan and wouldn't have any more unless I had a very large tank, far larger than I could possibly house. I don't like to see fish swimming constantly to and throw along the front glass like a caged lion. The biggest fish I have is a 5" foxface that someday I will move on for a smaller one and a 4" regal angel that I may also have to move on one day. However, they spend little time swimming at the front of the tank preferring to swim in and out the coral picking at the rocks. Most my 20 odd fish are small like Royal grammas of which I have 4, small wrasses, a pair of clowns damsels and blennies. I also find those fish much more interesting but each to their own.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I have a moorish idol In my tank and even during a good outbreak it stays clean. I’ve had tanks full of big tangs and all I fed them was nls pellets and I could drop an ick covered hippo in and in 2 weeks it was clean and remained that way. Here’s the tank fish are perfect

I do think fish can become immune..certain ones.. not all. But I’m intrigued by the fatty acid thing. What’s something high in this I can try feeding my Achilles ?

You can spend lots of money on selcon... or you can read the ingredients, realise it's mostly omega 3 and pop down to wal mart (or ASDA, if like me you're in the UK!) and buy some fish oil capsules. Soak your food in it or incorporate it into homemade food.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Love all the tangs what size tank is that?

Mines a 320g, 8'3" long.

 

[Cabinetman]

Mines a 320g, 8'3" long.

My new tank is 560 120x38x28.
I’ll take a better look at the Selkon ingredients. I’ve tried fish oil but it ruins my skimmer for hours afterward.

 

[atoll]

You can spend lots of money on selcon... or you can read the ingredients, realise it's mostly omega 3 and pop down to wal mart (or ASDA, if like me you're in the UK!) and buy some fish oil capsules. Soak your food in it or incorporate it into homemade food.

Better still for about £4 you can buy 300ml of this. I used to use the capsules but this is far more economical. BTW I live 15mins walk from my local ASDA but I bought my bottle of fish oil from Wilkinsons a few doors away from ASDA.

 

[atoll]

Or for £8 you can buy it with Omega 3

 

[Gweeds1980]

My new tank is 560 120x38x28.
I’ll take a better look at the Selkon ingredients. I’ve tried fish oil but it ruins my skimmer for hours afterward.

Yes, that happens!

 

[Gweeds1980]

My new tank is 560 120x38x28.
I’ll take a better look at the Selkon ingredients. I’ve tried fish oil but it ruins my skimmer for hours afterward.

That's a great size tank...

 

[Brew12]

In basic terms, they have a thinner mucous layer and less DHA in their skin.

I've been fascinated by this since I first started reading Paul's thread. From what I have seen, this is only part of the issue with Tangs although an important one.

In the broadest of categories, immunity is impacted by the physical health of the fish and stress. Feeding is a great way to improve the physical health of a fish. Stress is the harder part to handle. Studies have shown that fish can suffer a severe breakdown of their immune system in a matter of hours.

When you apply this specifically to tangs, many of them are open water swimmers we keep in our aquariums. Even an 8' aquarium is small related to the space they normally travel. This keeps them in at least a slightly stressed condition all of the time. Throw in a temperature spike, aggression issue, nutrient spike or any other unplanned event and it can quickly lead to problems. Fish like clowns, gobies, mandarins and many other popular aquarium fish live in a small section of the reef which we replicate better in an aquarium so they are less susceptible to stressing events. Combined with a thicker mucus coat, and they have a double advantage.

I QT not because I don't think that an immune system is a bad idea. I QT because I am unsure I can keep my fish from becoming stressed as I grow in the hobby. At this point, I don't want my aquarium to look like an actual reef. I want it to look like a beautiful reef aquarium with colorful acro's. I've never gone diving on a reef that looks anything like what the coral "experts" tanks look like. They all look more like Pauls or Lasses. This adds to the stress fish face so if it is the type of tank that is desired, QT is almost a must.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I've been fascinated by this since I first started reading Paul's thread. From what I have seen, this is only part of the issue with Tangs although an important one.

In the broadest of categories, immunity is impacted by the physical health of the fish and stress. Feeding is a great way to improve the physical health of a fish. Stress is the harder part to handle. Studies have shown that fish can suffer a severe breakdown of their immune system in a matter of hours.

When you apply this specifically to tangs, many of them are open water swimmers we keep in our aquariums. Even an 8' aquarium is small related to the space they normally travel. This keeps them in at least a slightly stressed condition all of the time. Throw in a temperature spike, aggression issue, nutrient spike or any other unplanned event and it can quickly lead to problems. Fish like clowns, gobies, mandarins and many other popular aquarium fish live in a small section of the reef which we replicate better in an aquarium so they are less susceptible to stressing events. Combined with a thicker mucus coat, and they have a double advantage.

I QT not because I don't think that an immune system is a bad idea. I QT because I am unsure I can keep my fish from becoming stressed as I grow in the hobby. At this point, I don't want my aquarium to look like an actual reef. I want it to look like a beautiful reef aquarium with colorful acro's. I've never gone diving on a reef that looks anything like what the coral "experts" tanks look like. They all look more like Pauls or Lasses. This adds to the stress fish face so if it is the type of tank that is desired, QT is almost a must.

True, stress is a big factor. My tank is also a mess lol... but I do have some nice montis.

 

[atoll]

I

In the broadest of categories, immunity is impacted by the physical health of the fish and stress. Feeding is a great way to improve the physical health of a fish. Stress is the harder part to handle. Studies have shown that fish can suffer a severe breakdown of their immune system in a matter of hours.

When you apply this specifically to tangs, many of them are open water swimmers we keep in our aquariums. Even an 8' aquarium is small related to the space they normally travel. This keeps them in at least a slightly stressed condition all of the time. Throw in a temperature spike, aggression issue, nutrient spike or any other unplanned event and it can quickly lead to problems.

Exactly, I have long since discovered a fishes environment is very important to it's well being, to deprive them of such will only serve to add to the stress and therefore the health of the fish. Open water fish IMO need to be provided with far more swimming space than many of us can provide.

Fish like clowns, gobies, mandarins and many other popular aquarium fish live in a small section of the reef which we replicate better in an aquarium so they are less susceptible to stressing events. Combined with a thicker mucus coat, and they have a double advantage.

That is what I have been practising and has been my approach to reefkeeping for over 25 years now and my animals are far more healthy and content with it. I choose my fish carefully to try ensure compatibility and harmony resulting in very low stress. However, it's the whole package from the environment to the choice of tanks mates and foods and feeding which all add up to healthy animals. I am sitting here about 8'from my aquarium watching my fish going about their daily behaviour and it all looks so natural. Occasionally a damsel will chase one of it's own as damsels do but there is no real aggression and never any harm done. There appears a natural balance to the tank with fish swimming in and out f the coral, picking at the rocks and exploring and even courtship behaviour. All very harmonious.

 

[Cabinetman]

Likely my biggest problem is trying to keep Achilles , powder blue and powder brown in the same tank cause they fight all the time. I can tell they get uneasy every time they swim past each other even if they don’t engage. I’m going to pick up some omega 3 fish oil today and start soaking pellets in it. Can’t hurt... and I’m selling my Achilles to a friend who has an ick free system. He is going to properly qt it

 

[Brew12]

My tank is also a mess lol

Have you ever seen a reef? They are a mess! If not for the constant attention of a massive CuC they would look horrible in a matter of days!

There appears a natural balance to the tank with fish swimming in and out f the coral, picking at the rocks and exploring and even courtship behaviour. All very harmonious.

I find the natural look to be its own form of beauty. It just isn't the one I am going for right now. Maybe after I get the confidence that I can grow that beautiful trophy tank I will transition to the more natural look.

 

[MnFish1]

No slamming! And thank you for your post... this debate is vital as I see it.

For reference I have an advanced degree in biology... not marine biology granted and my PhD wasn't earned with a thesis on fish immunity, ich or anything related for that matter... it was biofilm formation and drug resistance. But hardly unrelated either. I have not and do not claim this to be a scientific study. This is my hobby (or one of them), why on earth would I want to work when I could be playing?

However, in my studies, the thing that absolutely stood out was that regardless of what we do, life perseveres. You can nuke an established biofilm with any antibacterial or antibiotic you want, it will evolve and in its own way, become 'immune' to the 'attacker'.

All I did was take some of that understanding and attempt to apply it in a slap dash manner to my reef... unlike Paul I do like to keep delicate corals and inverts (I have a red feather star who is doing rather well, thank you). I have a growing collection of montipora with ridiculous made up names...

One thing I can be sure of... wild fish DO have immunity to the pathogens in their environment... whether ich, or velvet, or brooklynella, or herpes or TB is present in their wild environment is out for debate of course.

Wild fish farms will never, ever be able to feed the kind of foods I do. It is totally unsustainable, financially. It is cheaper for them to spend millions on developing a vaccine which once made will cost pence per shot and will work for the next 100 years. Hence why they do just that... one point to note... it is a vaccine they are trying to develop. What does a vaccine do? Generates an immune response... what is the key way this vaccine is being looked for? By studying fish that have a natural resistance to certain diseases... studying the macrophage response, studying what it is within the fish that enables that response... and you know what, so far Docosahexaenoic acid is the best they've got... where is that found? Omega 3 rich fish... how does it get into those fish which can't synthesize it? Via diet...

Don't believe me? Take a look at this article... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2238809/

DHA was the best long chain fatty acid tested at killing the malaria parasite... what can we use in 'proper' treatment of fish suffering from ich or Velvet? Chloroquine phosphate (CP)... what is CP better known as? An antimalarial... is it that much of a leap to believe that DHA might just also be able to kill ich? Could it just be possible that the very reason Charles Darwin bestowed our finned friends with DHA is to enable them to fight off parasitic infections ?

This is just one of several studies which have been carried out. The problem is that no-one bothers to read them or try to use that knowledge in a marine aquarium setting.

I am no genius and neither is Paul, nor you, nor anyone on this fine forum. But we differ in that some of us do not accept that man has created a better way of treating fish diseases in 50 years than nature has over the past billion or so years.

Worth noting... CP use as an antimalarial is beginning to fail, the parasite is becoming immune. Guess what marine derived compound serious research is looking at as the future of antimalarial drugs?

Thanks for the reply. One issue is that our tanks are not nature. The concentration of ich in an aquarium is much higher during an infection than in the wild

Secondly wild fish don’t lose their immunity To ich after 2 weeks in transport. It takes months to even start to lose immunity to ich. Im just not sure all of the conclusions you’re coming to are necessarily true or applicable or other tanks. Your success might be the food. It might not. You may have gotten fish that had partial immunity that had an infection. And recovered. Part of it may have been that the uv you used knocked the ich down enough that the ich in the tank died off. Though that’s not supposed to happen. Etc. of course feeding excellent food etc is a great idea. And of course you may be completely correct in your ideas. They seem to be working for you

 

[Paul B]

I've never gone diving on a reef that looks anything like what the coral "experts" tanks look like. They all look more like Pauls or Lasses.

I like the look of a natural looking tank and most SPS tanks, to me are not natural looking. I don't remember when this picture was taken but that clown in the left I still have and he is 26 so it could have been 20 years ago. I think this was the most natural my tank looked and I have seen a lot of reefs. There aren't to many corals and what I had were all SPS.



My theory on tangs especially why they are very susceptible to HLLE is that a tang is a schooling fish and they are the most common fish in the sea swimming in schools of thousands. They all turn and dive at a patch of algae in unison coming with in centimeters of each other and they never crash. To do that they need a very in tune lateral line which allows the fish to act instantly so as not to hit other fish. Tangs can also also dive into a coral head to hide and will never get cut. They know they can fit in the holes even before they enter.
Fish other than tangs like mandarins, gobies, clowns, pipes, and cardinals don't swim in such tight schools so their lateral line system doesn't have to be as well developed. I feel that in a tank, the fish constantly gets signals from the glass but it can't see it. The lateral line allows a fish to sense anything in it's surroundings and it keeps getting these signals that overload their nervous system because they can't get away from it. In the sea, the only thing a tang senses is the tang next to it.
I also feel this is why we can't keep Great White Sharks in square sided tanks, they have very well developed senses and they go nuts because they are constantly bombarded by signals from the square sides of the tank.
We also can't keep Great White Sharks in a Nano

 

[James Barton]

Sorry if I missed it but that's sparked my interest. What protocols if any would one follow to start an "immune" tank? I only have 2 clowns and some inverts in my dt but the clowns were prophylactically treated in CP and prazipro before entering the dt . How would one now try to build the immunity in my tank?

 

[Gweeds1980]

Sorry if I missed it but that's sparked my interest. What protocols if any would one follow to start an "immune" tank? I only have 2 clowns and some inverts in my dt but the clowns were prophylactically treated in CP and prazipro before entering the dt . How would one now try to build the immunity in my tank?

Hi, this might sound like a complete juxtaposition, but don't. Stick with the tried and tested quarantine methods advocated on R2R. However unscientific, this is very much an experiment and I wouldn't recommend trying to replicate my results.

Take a full read of the thread and some of the points against this method which have been raised... this should answer all of your questions...

This has all been based on heresay, anecdote and theories, not evidence based science with repeatable results.

I am not here to advocate this method above and beyond the traditional 'sterile QT' methods, just to report my observations, results and research.

To add to all that, you have already stripped your fish of their immunity by quarantining and prophylactically treating them. Why ruin that now by purposely introducing disease, which is what you would necessarily have to do? There is a very good chance you will kill your existing fish. If you want my advice, stick to what you're doing, it sounds like you're doing it well

 

[Brew12]

I am not here to advocate this method above and beyond the traditional 'sterile QT' methods, just to report my observations, results and research.

To add to all that, you have already stripped your fish of their immunity by quarantining and prophylactically treating them.

I have to take exception to this concept. You don't destroy the immune system of a fish by doing QT and prophylactically treating them. Just like there is no such thing as a sterile QT or reef tank.

We see evidence of QT'd fish regaining immunity on a regular basis. Think of all the times people have thought they have properly QT'd their fish only to have a heater failure cause an Ich breakout. In these many cases, it was the immune system mitigating the parasites until a stress even caused the breakout.

Ideally, the only long term difference between prophylactic treatment and not is that the treated fish will no longer have an adaptive immunity built up. There is no reason its innate immune system cannot be very strong.