It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Gweeds1980]

I have to take exception to this concept. You don't destroy the immune system of a fish by doing QT and prophylactically treating them. Just like there is no such thing as a sterile QT or reef tank.

We see evidence of QT'd fish regaining immunity on a regular basis. Think of all the times people have thought they have properly QT'd their fish only to have a heater failure cause an Ich breakout. In these many cases, it was the immune system mitigating the parasites until a stress even caused the breakout.

Ideally, the only long term difference between prophylactic treatment and not is that the treated fish will no longer have an adaptive immunity built up. There is no reason its innate immune system cannot be very strong.

True. Tbh I was more trying to put @James Barton off than anything else...

Agreed, the innate immune system can and should, be focussed on in any tank. This is your insurance policy should something make it through QT.

Feeding the foods recommended in this thread is generally good advice regardless of whether you QT or not and will help to keep your fish and their immune system in tip top condition.

 

[Paul B]

Sorry if I missed it but that's sparked my interest. What protocols if any would one follow to start an "immune" tank? I only have 2 clowns and some inverts in my dt but the clowns were prophylactically treated in CP and prazipro before entering the dt . How would one now try to build the immunity in my tank?

No one except possibly the fish knows at what point it's immunity is compromised. We think we do and scientists probably wrote a few papers on it, but no one really knows and I am sure it varies from fish to fish depending on size and species. There are very few cut and dry answers in this.
I "think" that if we quarantine for 72 days that would severely tax an immune system but I am not sure what you did would or how much and no one else knows either.

That being said an immune tank needs those things that you tried to prophylactically kill off. IMO an immune tank should be started like that from the beginning with wild caught fish, not from someone's tank. Fish with all the immunity they were born with and all the bacteria, viruses and parasites that fish naturally carry.
I would fill a tank with water, preferably water with some natural mud, NSW or at least rocks from the sea or from a LFS that are fresh from the sea and not their or someone's tank. We are looking for bacteria that came from the sea with not a lot of Human interference.
You can even add some garden soil (that you are sure had no insecticides, fertilizers etc) I do that occasionally, just a tablespoon or so. That is a very old school method and 97% of the Noobs are now doing back flips and calling my phych to get me medicated.

Bacteria are very robust, some of them lift weights. You need plenty of bacteria in the tank, the more the better.
Food must be as stated, no dry, sterile foods, none. Live or freshly frozen is best.
But, as I always say. A Noob should quarantine as this is not for the faint hearted.

 

[Mark Gray]

following nice thread I have to stop reading and catch an airplane

 

[Paul B]

following nice thread I have to stop reading and catch an airplane

What if I throw you this one?

 

[James Barton]

Thanks for the info gentlemen. So since i. Too lazy to make my own fish good lrf seems go be the gold standard along with black works and baby brine shrimp? I have some rods food but my clowns don't really touch It, which is a little upsetting. They won't even eat rods fish eggs. My female will pick at the black worms and demolish live brine shrimp but my male really touch any of it. What else could I try to supplement? I'll be getting some lrf this weekend to try out but now I'm worried my male won't eat. He was eating the frozen pe mysis but I'm wanting to get them on a more fresh diet.

 

[James Barton]

danged technology and these phones. I should spell check before submittin. My apologies for sounding special through my text lol.

 

[Brew12]

danged technology and these phones. I should spell check before submittin. My apologies for sounding special through my text lol.

lol Its awful sometimes, isn't it?

 

[Mark Gray]

What if I throw you this one?
my pair of clowns would not eat black worms at first also. they love them now.

sounds good if you have a super model or two

Thanks for the info gentlemen. So since i. Too lazy to make my own fish good lrf seems go be the gold standard along with black works and baby brine shrimp? I have some rods food but my clowns don't really touch It, which is a little upsetting. They won't even eat rods fish eggs. My female will pick at the black worms and demolish live brine shrimp but my male really touch any of it. What else could I try to supplement? I'll be getting some lrf this weekend to try out but now I'm worried my male won't eat. He was eating the frozen pe mysis but I'm wanting to get them on a more fresh diet.

 

[Tristren]

No one except possibly the fish knows at what point it's immunity is compromised. We think we do and scientists probably wrote a few papers on it, but no one really knows and I am sure it varies from fish to fish depending on size and species. There are very few cut and dry answers in this.
I "think" that if we quarantine for 72 days that would severely tax an immune system but I am not sure what you did would or how much and no one else knows either.

We that depends on what we mean by quarantine doesn't it?
I am new to all this and so is my tank. I do have a quarantine tank. But it's a nice enough 30g tank with a bit of live rock and plenty of pods and things. There's some bits of pipe, and also this awesome castle:

So not too stressful I hope. And I don't prophylactically medicate at all. It's a quarantine in the traditional sense though in that new fish stay in that separate system where I can watch them for signs of any illnesses.

...
But, as I always say. A Noob should quarantine as this is not for the faint hearted.

So why do you say this?

I would like to have a system like yours. I'm not using UV or medicating incoming fish. Like I said, I'm far from the ocean but this system is "built" on a mix of live rock and scoops of gunk from the bottom of a healthy 20year old system at my local fish store, and some live rock fresh off the plan from Fiji. I need to work on getting live food, but I'm using frozen and reef nutrition bottles as opposed to dry. And adding the occasional squirt of bacteria from Aquaforest.
Going forward I'm looking to get pairs of fish (that like pairing) so that there is spawning going on as well... Nothing that seems scary?

Why the warning?

Cheers, Tony

 

[MnFish1]

No one except possibly the fish knows at what point it's immunity is compromised. We think we do and scientists probably wrote a few papers on it, but no one really knows and I am sure it varies from fish to fish depending on size and species. There are very few cut and dry answers in this.
I "think" that if we quarantine for 72 days that would severely tax an immune system but I am not sure what you did would or how much and no one else knows either.

That being said an immune tank needs those things that you tried to prophylactically kill off. IMO an immune tank should be started like that from the beginning with wild caught fish, not from someone's tank. Fish with all the immunity they were born with and all the bacteria, viruses and parasites that fish naturally carry.
I would fill a tank with water, preferably water with some natural mud, NSW or at least rocks from the sea or from a LFS that are fresh from the sea and not their or someone's tank. We are looking for bacteria that came from the sea with not a lot of Human interference.
You can even add some garden soil (that you are sure had no insecticides, fertilizers etc) I do that occasionally, just a tablespoon or so. That is a very old school method and 97% of the Noobs are now doing back flips and calling my phych to get me medicated.

Bacteria are very robust, some of them lift weights. You need plenty of bacteria in the tank, the more the better.
Food must be as stated, no dry, sterile foods, none. Live or freshly frozen is best.
But, as I always say. A Noob should quarantine as this is not for the faint hearted.

You are right there are some studies on fish immunity especially to CI. There is just no proof whatsoever that the methods you use cause “better” immunity ie adding extra bacteria etc. rather the. Just keeping good water parameters and feeding enough quality food.

There is no reason to think that quarantining a fish for 72 days would deplete it’s immune system. Even in a quarantine tank there are billions of bacteria. Immunity to ich if a fish has been exposed lasts at least 6 months and longer if they continue to be exposed.

Though there might not be much science I’m not sure it’s right to just toss it out th window so to speak.

By the way just like people fish have bacteria in ththe guts on their skin etc. their own little micro biome. And none of the dry food is “sterile”

 

[Paul B]

Tristen. I advise Noobs to quarantine because a new tank is not healthy no matter what your test kits read. New water, especially fake sea water is not very good at keeping things healthy hence all the disease problems in new tanks. The bacteria, pods, algae, viruses and parasites may take years to settle down and decide how they are going to interact with each other which is the reason for all the threads that start out with "Battling" one thing or another. My tank is very old and I never battle anything as it is settled down. Also Noobs will not be able to recognize a healthy fish from a not so healthy fish. Healthy fish are spawning fish as all healthy fish spawn all the time, sometimes daily. That is very rare in a new tank. I am not talking about clown fish as they don't count. They will spawn in damp newspaper. It just takes time to learn all this and I will see a fish differently than you do. Not that I am the God of fish, but after a number of years, you can practically read their minds. My fish don't think I can do that.
As I keep saying, fish need live bacteria almost every day. If it is in quarantine for 72 days which is the advised quarantine time for parasites, the fish will not be on proper food in that time because feeding fresh or live food to a quarantined system defeats the purpose as you can introduce parasites. Dry or sterile foods are not a part of my system for no amount of time so the longer a fish is quarantined for, the more of it's immunity it loses. How long, I have no idea.

That algae bleeny you have lives in the sea on the sand in patches of algae. It grazes on algae constantly as that is it's main diet. They are a fairly easy fish but we can not reproduce their diet in a tank. Nori is not fresh seaweed and neither is lettuce, spinach or anything else we can buy so that particular fish is not eating it's preferred diet. How healthy is it? Only the fish knows.
I think you are doing an excellent job with that tank but a natural, immune tank needs to be set up that way from the start. IMO of course but thats why the warning. Too many people text me saying they tried to get their fish immune and they died. It is not just eliminating quarantine. There is a lot more to it.
The "gunk" from the 20 year old system is excellent, Keep doing that.

There is just no proof whatsoever that the methods you use cause “better” immunity ie adding extra bacteria etc.

That is true. I can't prove any of it. I can just prove that my fish do not get sick. It could be my good looks (doubtful) my aftershave, or my lack of rap music.
But I also never have to post on a disease thread. How many fish do you see that have been quarantined for 72 days that are spawning? Real fish not damsels. How many fish quarantined for 72 days die 20 or 30 years old from old age? Search for them.

The bacteria in a fishes gut means nothing if it is always the same bacteria from food and no disease bacteria. I didn't make that up. A fish, or any organism needs an influx of disease bacteria, parasites and viruses to become immune to them. Our biggest hurdle to long space flights is the absence of disease bacteria to keep our immune system working. I also didn't make that up and linked many articles on it.

Dry food is sterile as far as the fish is concerned for the reasons I mentioned. You need disease causing pathogens to be immune to them. I keep mentioning that but no one believes me.
I can't help it if my fish are immune. It is simple and the fish have no problem staying immune as long as we stay out of their way.

I have researched this over the years and didn't make it up:

Ref: Copyright © 2012 María Ángeles Esteban. This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.

And this:

Coincidently in this months "Popular Science" (August 2015) there is an article about this very topic. The author states that the most germ free envirnment today is on the International Space Station. Everything is sterilized including the air. All the surfaces are coated with bacteria limiting coatings, even the water is treated with iodine and biocidal nano silver so the only bacteria prsent are the ones coming from the astronauts themselves. (I wrote the next part) They can't open a window or send out for Pizza so there is no fresh influx of microbes to balance the ecosystem. Sounds like quarantining doesn't it? He also states that a loss of gut bacteria correlates with many diseases and could impede longer space travel. If we lose our gut bacteria, our immune system goes dormant.

More:
This is also the reason so many diseases are contracted in hospitals, a place where great pains are taken to keep the place clean. They are clean, so the only bacteria present are from sick people with no other bacteria or viruses to counteract them. It is now thought that people using those hand sanitizers from very young are at a higher risk of becomming an allergic toddler.
Human babies born normally pick up Lactobacillus in the birth canal which helps them digest milk and lowers the gut's pH to the normal range. but babies born by C-section miss out and could be born with Staphlococcus and sometimes antibiotic resistant bacteria. (Rinku Patel Popular Science August 2015)

 

[Tristren]

Tristen. I advise Noobs to quarantine because a new tank is not healthy no matter what your test kits read. New water, especially fake sea water is not very good at keeping things healthy hence all the disease problems in new tanks. The bacteria, pods, algae, viruses and parasites may take years to settle down and decide how they are going to interact with each other which is the reason for all the threads that start out with "Battling" one thing or another. My tank is very old and I never battle anything as it is settled down. Also Noobs will not be able to recognize a healthy fish from a not so healthy fish. Healthy fish are spawning fish as all healthy fish spawn all the time, sometimes daily. That is very rare in a new tank. I am not talking about clown fish as they don't count. They will spawn in damp newspaper. It just takes time to learn all this and I will see a fish differently than you do. Not that I am the God of fish, but after a number of years, you can practically read their minds. My fish don't think I can do that.
As I keep saying, fish need live bacteria almost every day. If it is in quarantine for 72 days which is the advised quarantine time for parasites, the fish will not be on proper food in that time because feeding fresh or live food to a quarantined system defeats the purpose as you can introduce parasites. Dry or sterile foods are not a part of my system for no amount of time so the longer a fish is quarantined for, the more of it's immunity it loses. How long, I have no idea.

That algae bleeny you have lives in the sea on the sand in patches of algae. It grazes on algae constantly as that is it's main diet. They are a fairly easy fish but we can not reproduce their diet in a tank. Nori is not fresh seaweed and neither is lettuce, spinach or anything else we can buy so that particular fish is not eating it's preferred diet. How healthy is it? Only the fish knows.
I think you are doing an excellent job with that tank but a natural, immune tank needs to be set up that way from the start. IMO of course but thats why the warning. Too many people text me saying they tried to get their fish immune and they died. It is not just eliminating quarantine. There is a lot more to it.
The "gunk" from the 20 year old system is excellent, Keep doing that.

Ok, gotcha. That all makes sense. So now I need to figure out how to get started with live food...

 

[Paul B]

If you want immune fish, yes, you will need live food with all the diseases and parasites fish normally have. No other way will get your fish immune to them. The only other way is quarantine, and you know how I feel about that.

 

[Cabinetman]

i think I’m going to order some miracle mud. I’ll get it’s loaded with good bacteria right from the reef

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Well I finally finished reading this thread and I'd like to say thank you to Gweeds. Mostly because it was very interesting reading about your experiences with this method but also because I got to spend a whole shift at work reading it

Back in August I had a mass die off due to velvet and all but 2 fish (a black cardinal and a hippo tang) died in less than 5 days. I did some reading on velvet and thought that the 2 surviving fish were as good as dead and it was just a matter of time - but they are both still alive today. Because I still have 2 fish alive I got a QT and was planning on catching them and medicating while the DT goes fallow. However your thread has gotten me wondering if I should use their apparent immunity to my advantage in the same way you did to stop this from happening again? Because if I don't then I can QT all new fish, but I can't QT all new coral and they can all bring in ich and velvet just as easily so what's the point in stripping the fish of their immunity?

Your thread got has me thinking back to my previous tank (of which the same blue tang was the first inhabitant) where I used NSW, LR I collected from a local reef and fed a mix of frozen fish food and fresh local seafood. In my old tank my tangs would occasionally swim into the flow of a power head (at the time I didn't know this was a symptom of velvet) as well as very occasionally show up with one or two white spots which would then disappear as fast as they came. But in 2 years I only had 2 losses right at the end.

I lost one bristle tooth tang and one yellow tang, both of which died while I was moving all of the rocks around in preparation for the move to my new tank, something that I assume was very stressful for them and must have lowered their protections against the velvet and/or ich (although they had no white spots on them when they died).

In the new tank I have used exclusively ASW, started with dry rock and fed mostly pellets and occasionally frozen fish food. I didn't have any issues for the first 10 months but 2 new butterfly fish seemed to cause the velvet outbreak. I no longer think they bought it in but now think that they caused a stress event which led to a mass velvet outbreak.

I completely understand that you are not recommending this method to everyone however I am keen to give it a go. Worst case and the next fish or two I add don't pick up the immunity then I just have to go back to my original plan. So after reading your thread my new plan is:
- do some large water changes with NSW and start using NSW for regular WC
- Start feeding a DIY frozen mix of local fresh seafood (does equal parts whole small fish, squid & muscles sound ok?)
- collect some more LR from the local reef to put in the sump
- use the QT tank as an acclimation tank like you have done to acclimate any new additions with DT water from here on out

Have I forgotten anything?

Cheers,

Macca

 

[Brew12]

Well I finally finished reading this thread and I'd like to say thank you to Gweeds. Mostly because it was very interesting reading about your experiences with this method but also because I got to spend a whole shift at work reading it

Back in August I had a mass die off due to velvet and all but 2 fish (a black cardinal and a hippo tang) died in less than 5 days. I did some reading on velvet and thought that the 2 surviving fish were as good as dead and it was just a matter of time - but they are both still alive today. Because I still have 2 fish alive I got a QT and was planning on catching them and medicating while the DT goes fallow. However your thread has gotten me wondering if I should use their apparent immunity to my advantage in the same way you did to stop this from happening again? Because if I don't then I can QT all new fish, but I can't QT all new coral and they can all bring in ich and velvet just as easily so what's the point in stripping the fish of their immunity?

Your thread got has me thinking back to my previous tank (of which the same blue tang was the first inhabitant) where I used NSW, LR I collected from a local reef and fed a mix of frozen fish food and fresh local seafood. In my old tank my tangs would occasionally swim into the flow of a power head (at the time I didn't know this was a symptom of velvet) as well as very occasionally show up with one or two white spots which would then disappear as fast as they came. But in 2 years I only had 2 losses right at the end.

I lost one bristle tooth tang and one yellow tang, both of which died while I was moving all of the rocks around in preparation for the move to my new tank, something that I assume was very stressful for them and must have lowered their protections against the velvet and/or ich (although they had no white spots on them when they died).

In the new tank I have used exclusively ASW, started with dry rock and fed mostly pellets and occasionally frozen fish food. I didn't have any issues for the first 10 months but 2 new butterfly fish seemed to cause the velvet outbreak. I no longer think they bought it in but now think that they caused a stress event which led to a mass velvet outbreak.

I completely understand that you are not recommending this method to everyone however I am keen to give it a go. Worst case and the next fish or two I add don't pick up the immunity then I just have to go back to my original plan. So after reading your thread my new plan is:
- do some large water changes with NSW and start using NSW for regular WC
- Start feeding a DIY frozen mix of local fresh seafood (does equal parts whole small fish, squid & muscles sound ok?)
- collect some more LR from the local reef to put in the sump
- use the QT tank as an acclimation tank like you have done to acclimate any new additions with DT water from here on out

Have I forgotten anything?

Cheers,

Macca

I recommend running a UV filter in parasite mode or ozone. That will give you some margin in case you have a stress event happen in your tank. Even if you don't run them all the time you could turn them on if needed.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

I recommend running a UV filter in parasite mode or ozone. That will give you some margin in case you have a stress event happen in your tank. Even if you don't run them all the time you could turn them on if needed.

Yes, thank you! I forgot to add I'll be getting a UV filter as well I'll run it 24/7 to start with and maybe decrease it to 1 day a week after a little while.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Yes, thank you! I forgot to add I'll be getting a UV filter as well I'll run it 24/7 to start with and maybe decrease it to 1 day a week after a little while.

Yep, UV is a must I would say, particularly if 'converting' to this approach. Over time you may be able to ramp it's usage down. I'd go for something rated a lot higher than your tank volume and a real slow flow through it, max 1 x volume per hour, preferably less. Slower flow = more exposure time = more dead parasites.

Other than that your plan sounds good... we'll see if this works I guess! Apologies in advance if it doesn't!

Out of interest, what's the volume of your system? All in, before displacement I'm at 320g... just wondering if water volume has any effect.

Get a thread going to document your progress, would be good to see for sure.

I also have backup x 1, if not more, for every single piece of equipment... this will massively alleviate any stress events in the early days should something like a heater or return pump fail.

 

[Gweeds1980]

@MaccaPopEye, meant to add... if you have access to the ocean, I'd find some macro algae to add to your food mix... it will up the po4 and no3 readings tho once blended, so prepare for a spike.

Also, if you can collect any wild critters or even fish to add to the food, that will help no end.

 

[MnFish1]

That is true. I can't prove any of it. I can just prove that my fish do not get sick.

When is the last time you added a new fish to your tank? How often do you add more fish/coral, etc to your tank. Part of the reason people dont have aquariums / fish for 20-30 years is that they move, they have a power failure, etc etc - and they dont keep a tank that long. It does not mean that people using techniques other than yours cant have a tank for 20-30 years. Lets put it this way - My guess would be that there are as many people using QT methods with tanks that are that old as yours - as people using your method - ie. not many in either case. Im not sure why fish spawning is an indication of anything except your fish are well fed. This is common sense - but has nothing to do with immunity. You have a trade-off in your tank - your long-term inhabitants have survived in these conditions and do well. Other people want different kinds of coral, etc - and as you have stated yourself - certain types of organisms would not live in your system. What is your solution for them?

The bacteria in a fishes gut means nothing if it is always the same bacteria from food and no disease bacteria. I didn't make that up. A fish, or any organism needs an influx of disease bacteria, parasites and viruses to become immune to them. Our biggest hurdle to long space flights is the absence of disease bacteria to keep our immune system working. I also didn't make that up and linked many articles on it.

There is a difference between 'commensal' bacteria and pathogenic bacteria/parasites. People dont become 'immune' to commensal organisms. They tolerate them - like the E.coli in our intestines (and staph aureus and epidermidis on our skin (among thousands of others). Most importantly, there is a difference between 'bacteria', 'viruses', 'fungi' and 'parasites' in general. You seem to be mixing the terms. I guarantee you - if you have multiple fish from multiple places in the world, they do not have the same strains of bacteria, or ich or velvet etc. Thus - you cant have 'every strain' of CI or 'every strain' of velvet in your tank at one time - thus - you cant ever provide 'all the stuff' for the fish to become immune to. This is the biggest argument against your theory - and it completely debunks it. There is a huge amount of literature on strains of ich from one area infecting fish that are from another area. The immunity to one strain of ich - does not extend to all of them. (Which is why I asked you when you added your last fish). In other words, I think the food you feed your fish keeps them in better condition than average - but this has nothing to do with their immune systems except that the improved general condition helps them. Having 'bacteria' in 'live food' - does not mean that the immune system is 'stronger'.

This is also the reason so many diseases are contracted in hospitals, a place where great pains are taken to keep the place clean. They are clean, so the only bacteria present are from sick people with no other bacteria or viruses to counteract them. It is now thought that people using those hand sanitizers from very young are at a higher risk of becomming an allergic toddler.
Human babies born normally pick up Lactobacillus in the birth canal which helps them digest milk and lowers the gut's pH to the normal range. but babies born by C-section miss out and could be born with Staphlococcus and sometimes antibiotic resistant bacteria. (Rinku Patel Popular Science August 2015)

The reasons diseases are contracted in hospitals is because patients are sick in hospitals - and they are more susceptible to other diseases. They are having surgeries - which result in infections. They are having IV's put in and catheters in their bladders which disrupt the bodies defenses, they are getting immunosuppressant medications, etc etc...

Most visitors to hospitals do not get 'infections' - yet they are exposed to 'the only bacteria present are from sick people with no other bacteria or viruses to counteract them' - keeping a hospital 'clean' does not cause infection. On the contrary, I dont think doing surgery without sterile technique - would be a good idea (i.e in the 1890's)

Your comments about exposing kids to more allergens and bacteria when young may be true - but you cant extrapolate it to fish. Infants are basically born with a very sparse immune system - mostly getting Immunoglobulins from their mothers that lasts 6 months or so - until they are exposed to other things. This has nothing to do with fish immunity (they do not get any immunity from their 'mother').

Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.

Right- this is exactly true. If the fish survive - if they have continued exposure, they will likely keep surviving. But - most die after infection (thats the point). Its the same as most of the research on CI. An immune or partially immune fish will likely survive, a naive fish will likely die.

I appreciate your opinions - and discussion - and thanks for discussing them. I happen to agree with you that its hit or miss using a QT system (many fish die in QT) and hit or miss with ich management. Im discussing more your rationale for what your saying - rather than that fish cant survive ich/velvet, etc. I mean people survived the plague as well in the Middle Ages - people survive ebola as well.