It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Gweeds1980]

I do mixed procedures and it seems to be working for me. Every new fish I buy I do place in quarantine but mainly for observation only. I don't treat prophylactically but just observe them for a month. If I see sign of disease I do then treat them accordingly. While in there I only feed live foods though, blackworms, baby brine, and if all is going well and I am not treating, Pods. I figured I don't want to purposefully put a diseased fish into the lions den of my DT, and I want him as healthy as possible when he does go in. Plus by observing him for a month I can get him used to my feeding schedule and make sure he is eating correctly. I have had great luck with this system and probably will keep it up. Is my tank disease free? I really have no idea. Are my fish immune? once again no idea, but everything is fat happy healthy and breeding so something must be going right. My copperband has pretty much doubled in size, the 2 mandys are little sausages, Tangs are fat and look like pigs. 6 line Wrasse is a joker and loves to show off whenever you are next to tank, and the clowns are pretty much like rabbits and always protecting their eggs.

I would suggest that you have the rarest of things in this hobby... a system that works for you.

Well done[emoji4]

 

[jaws789832]

I do admire you for trying your system. When I first started in the hobby 6 years ago I wanted a tank similar to PaulB's. I chickened out though and figured I had too many strikes against me. Living in New Mexico, the closest seawater is over 1000 miles away so I was resigned to always mixing my own saltwater. I have to buy all my pods and blackworms via online because no LFS sells them in bulk. All seafood is frozen here so there is nothing live and I cant guarantee its freshness. When I put all these things together I figured I would never be able to do a system like his to the T. So I tried to come up with a system the incorporates both the QT method and the immunity method to give the fish the best chance I could. Seems to work for me because since I started I have only lost 1 fish in the DT and that was when I transferred from my 30 gallon to my 120. Now corals is a different story lol. I have had many ups and downs with them. Right now my sticks are growing like weeds but I cant keep my LPS alive to save my life and 6 months ago it was just the opposite. My SPS would all die and my LPS and softies were taking over. I soon can retire though and am planning to move somewhere by the coast and at that point I will rethink things. I will be following along here to see how it goes for you and hope it goes well.

 

[Paul B]

I would wager a $100 bet that if you dropped an Achilles in your tank that it would die within 6 months,

Now see what you did, I have to go out and buy an Achilles tang and I hate those things. When it gets a foot long you will have to promise to come to my house and catch the thing because I don't want it. I am sure he won't get ich or anything else but he may be bored to death as I will ignore him.
The only reason I have any SPS corals is because someone told me that I can't keep them in my filthy tank.

For every Paul there are perhaps tens of thousands of "others" that have lost and lose fish they shouldn't have.

The fish in the sea may disagree with that.

although you don't keep tangs or otherwise disease prone fish by and large

I would assume copperbands and hippo tangs are also considered to be as ich magnets, but I have been keeping those fish for decades. My current copperband I bought when he was as big as a quarter, now he is almost the size of a football field.

Fish in the sea are immune as they should be. I can't help it if my fish are immune. I can probably convince them to get sick but I don't know how.

I just came home from collecting in my favorite tide pool. I collected 55,372 amphipods give or take five. I dumped them in my tan with the associated mud, sticks, seaweed, snails, worms, barnacles and Godzilla larvae. Probably 73 diseases in there also. But my fish think they died and went to fish heaven. They are chasing amphipods all over the place and are in their glory. This is the first time this year I had the opportunity to collect as the weather and tide were perfect. The amphipods are swarming all over the place. I still have a bunch in my tank from last year but now their cousins and friends are in there . I may have over done it as I think if I weighed them, there re more amphipods by weight then fish.
Here is a five second amphipod video. This is about one fiftieth of what I dumped in today.

 

[Gweeds1980]

To jump on the picture bandwagon... here's my homemade food being prepared... just chop a lump off and defrost in tank water. The mussels were bashed with a rolling pin then chucked in.

Vid of feeding to follow

 

[Gweeds1980]

I do admire you for trying your system. When I first started in the hobby 6 years ago I wanted a tank similar to PaulB's. I chickened out though and figured I had too many strikes against me. Living in New Mexico, the closest seawater is over 1000 miles away so I was resigned to always mixing my own saltwater. I have to buy all my pods and blackworms via online because no LFS sells them in bulk. All seafood is frozen here so there is nothing live and I cant guarantee its freshness. When I put all these things together I figured I would never be able to do a system like his to the T. So I tried to come up with a system the incorporates both the QT method and the immunity method to give the fish the best chance I could. Seems to work for me because since I started I have only lost 1 fish in the DT and that was when I transferred from my 30 gallon to my 120. Now corals is a different story lol. I have had many ups and downs with them. Right now my sticks are growing like weeds but I cant keep my LPS alive to save my life and 6 months ago it was just the opposite. My SPS would all die and my LPS and softies were taking over. I soon can retire though and am planning to move somewhere by the coast and at that point I will rethink things. I will be following along here to see how it goes for you and hope it goes well.

Thanks... one of the many joys of living a 30 minute drive from the coast. That said, I'm in the UK and everywhere is close to the coast compared to where you are!

Do any LFS over the pond sell NSW? It's catching on over here, there's 2 LFS close to me who stock it... buy it by the litre just like RO and actually works out slightly cheaper than already made up ASW!

 

[Gweeds1980]

Oh, and my damsels have laid eggs [emoji16]

 

[Paul B]

As I said, with that diet all your paired fish will lay eggs. If you have dogs and cats, even them will lay eggs.
You can't have a better diet for fish. I actually eat that myself and if I could hold amphipods by the tail, I would eat those.



Watchman with her eggs. (I guess it is a watch "Girl")

 

[Paul B]

Isn't it easier to open the mussels rather than bash them with a rolling pin?

I got mussels

 

[Gweeds1980]

Isn't it easier to open the mussels rather than bash them with a rolling pin?

I got mussels

Yeah, but I figure it's more 'enriching' for the fish to get them out themselves [emoji4]

Plus I tend to leave the shells in... I quite like the idea of my substrate being entirely broken mussel shells one day!

The real reason is that it's a great excuse to hit stuff hard with a wooden stick... we're all still 8 years old really [emoji2]

 

[Brew12]

Added a 3 stage fludised reactor with bio pellets, GFO and carbon, in order to get nutrients to as close to reef as possible (basically zero for the bad stuff and accepted norms for good stuff) and keep them stable.

Just as an FYI, reefs are very high nutrient systems. They need to be in order to support all of the life on them. The reason the water tests as if it were low nutrient is because of everything growing and consuming those nutrients. If you pull all of the algae eaters off a section of reef it will quickly become overgrown.

I run UV, this will not be changed... I anticipate that this will aid in the destruction of a number of pathogens to keep levels below 'infestation'.

I was glad to see this. Paul B runs Ozone in his skimmer which I believe helps control his parasite levels. A UV filter should provide the same function. In a tank with all immune fish this won't do much at all. It will help if there is a stress event that weakens a fish's immunity or when adding a new pathogen.

The question I would ask is why those tens of thousands of tangs were unable to fight ich? Is it due to an inherent inability to stave of attack from the parasite? Evidence suggests no... otherwise over the millions of years of evolution, they would have died out already. Is it due to their immune response being overwhelmed due to the vast numbers of parasites in a closed system as opposed to the reef? Far more likely.

Some species of Tangs don't have as strong of an immunity against ich because it isn't necessary. Fish which live in a small section of the reef their entire life need to have a stronger immunity than fish that swim large distances. They swim away from parasites preventing them from reaching dangerous levels.

Treat all new fish as per accepted 'sterile' QT protocols, I will be doing 30 days copper treatment at therapeutic levels and treating any other visible or quantifiable pathogens as per accepted norms.

If you are going to try to follow what Paul B does, this might not be in your, or your fishes' best interest.

Bu example, I will have velvet in my system at some point... but I want to be the one to introduce it, in a controlled manner and with full knowledge that my fish already have resistance to it... NOT by throwing in a heavily infested fish and crossing my fingers... that would be foolish and a sure way to guarantee failure.

Actually, it is necessary, not foolish.

Fish have 2 differently classified immune responses. Their innate system is a broad indicator of their health. For a system like what Paul B runs you need to concentrate on their adaptive immunity. This is a fish's strongest response to a parasite like ich and velvet. The only way to develop this adaptive immunity is through exposure to the parasites. This adaptive immunity is broken quickly by stress events. It will also begin losing its adaptive immunity if it isn't exposed to the parasite for 6 months. If you are treating with copper for 30 days you will likely destroy its adaptive immunity and make it more susceptible to whichever parasites you have in your tank. If you are going to go down this route, you should go "all in". Doing a full QT only to put the fish in an infected tank can work against you.

I am a strong advocate ich eradication because it is what will work best for most people. I am fascinated by Paul's system and may try to replicate it some day. You seem to have everything in place to make it work. Live feed to strengthen the innate and adaptive immune system. You have a UV filter to limit parasite populations while the adaptive immune system adapts. I'm hoping your system is very stable and that you have plenty of fail safes to avoid issues from heater failures or the like. If you are there, go for it. Not every fish will make it since not every fish of the same species will have identical immune systems but it doesn't mean you can't have a thriving healthy system. I just recommend either going all one way or the other. I worry trying to straddle the two won't work like you intend in the long term.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Just as an FYI, reefs are very high nutrient systems. They need to be in order to support all of the life on them. The reason the water tests as if it were low nutrient is because of everything growing and consuming those nutrients. If you pull all of the algae eaters off a section of reef it will quickly become overgrown.

I was glad to see this. Paul B runs Ozone in his skimmer which I believe helps control his parasite levels. A UV filter should provide the same function. In a tank with all immune fish this won't do much at all. It will help if there is a stress event that weakens a fish's immunity or when adding a new pathogen.

Some species of Tangs don't have as strong of an immunity against ich because it isn't necessary. Fish which live in a small section of the reef their entire life need to have a stronger immunity than fish that swim large distances. They swim away from parasites preventing them from reaching dangerous levels.

If you are going to try to follow what Paul B does, this might not be in your, or your fishes' best interest.

Actually, it is necessary, not foolish.

Fish have 2 differently classified immune responses. Their innate system is a broad indicator of their health. For a system like what Paul B runs you need to concentrate on their adaptive immunity. This is a fish's strongest response to a parasite like ich and velvet. The only way to develop this adaptive immunity is through exposure to the parasites. This adaptive immunity is broken quickly by stress events. It will also begin losing its adaptive immunity if it isn't exposed to the parasite for 6 months. If you are treating with copper for 30 days you will likely destroy its adaptive immunity and make it more susceptible to whichever parasites you have in your tank. If you are going to go down this route, you should go "all in". Doing a full QT only to put the fish in an infected tank can work against you.

I am a strong advocate ich eradication because it is what will work best for most people. I am fascinated by Paul's system and may try to replicate it some day. You seem to have everything in place to make it work. Live feed to strengthen the innate and adaptive immune system. You have a UV filter to limit parasite populations while the adaptive immune system adapts. I'm hoping your system is very stable and that you have plenty of fail safes to avoid issues from heater failures or the like. If you are there, go for it. Not every fish will make it since not every fish of the same species will have identical immune systems but it doesn't mean you can't have a thriving healthy system. I just recommend either going all one way or the other. I worry trying to straddle the two won't work like you intend in the long term.

Thanks for the input... really interesting to read.

I know the reef is high nutrient but reads low due to the nutrients being fixed by organisms as soon as they are generated. I figured the 3 stage reactor would effectively do the same... what I'm striving to do is to keep levels to a point that they match the measurable reef.

Obviously my livestock / refuge will fix a lot of those nutrients in the same way as on the reef, but import needs to match export and I don't want to rely on my refuge 100%.

With regard to the two immune responses, I was aware of that. It's the adaptive response that I'm looking to stimulate by introducing pathogens in a controlled manner, rather than via fish which are already displaying advanced symptoms. I envisage this would culminate in putting in rock or sand from an infected system or small amounts of infected tissue in order to provide my fish with a small amount of the pathogen. This should give them a fighting chance for the adaptive response to work as isn't should. Obviously once the pathogen has been introduced then I'd expect to see some low level of symptoms to be displayed... otherwise it hasn't worked.

I guess this is similar to the idea in humans where a small amount or unviable form of a pathogen is introduced in order to trigger an immune response.

This part is very much work in progress. As I mention, I've only had one fish though my QT procedure. At the moment I only know of having ich in my system and I don't want to introduce anything else until I am happy that the fish can deal with it, hence the 'sterile' QT procedure at the start, followed by the introduction of contaminated rock / water from the DT in stages. I'm certainly open to changing this and pure observation may be better... I just don't know as yet.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Just as an FYI, reefs are very high nutrient systems. They need to be in order to support all of the life on them. The reason the water tests as if it were low nutrient is because of everything growing and consuming those nutrients. If you pull all of the algae eaters off a section of reef it will quickly become overgrown.

I was glad to see this. Paul B runs Ozone in his skimmer which I believe helps control his parasite levels. A UV filter should provide the same function. In a tank with all immune fish this won't do much at all. It will help if there is a stress event that weakens a fish's immunity or when adding a new pathogen.

Some species of Tangs don't have as strong of an immunity against ich because it isn't necessary. Fish which live in a small section of the reef their entire life need to have a stronger immunity than fish that swim large distances. They swim away from parasites preventing them from reaching dangerous levels.

If you are going to try to follow what Paul B does, this might not be in your, or your fishes' best interest.

Actually, it is necessary, not foolish.

Fish have 2 differently classified immune responses. Their innate system is a broad indicator of their health. For a system like what Paul B runs you need to concentrate on their adaptive immunity. This is a fish's strongest response to a parasite like ich and velvet. The only way to develop this adaptive immunity is through exposure to the parasites. This adaptive immunity is broken quickly by stress events. It will also begin losing its adaptive immunity if it isn't exposed to the parasite for 6 months. If you are treating with copper for 30 days you will likely destroy its adaptive immunity and make it more susceptible to whichever parasites you have in your tank. If you are going to go down this route, you should go "all in". Doing a full QT only to put the fish in an infected tank can work against you.

I am a strong advocate ich eradication because it is what will work best for most people. I am fascinated by Paul's system and may try to replicate it some day. You seem to have everything in place to make it work. Live feed to strengthen the innate and adaptive immune system. You have a UV filter to limit parasite populations while the adaptive immune system adapts. I'm hoping your system is very stable and that you have plenty of fail safes to avoid issues from heater failures or the like. If you are there, go for it. Not every fish will make it since not every fish of the same species will have identical immune systems but it doesn't mean you can't have a thriving healthy system. I just recommend either going all one way or the other. I worry trying to straddle the two won't work like you intend in the long term.

My point on the tangs was that they do come across various pathogens (not just talking ich and velvet) in the wild and their immune system has evolved to handle that... It may not be as effective as say a sand dwelling wrasse, for the reasons you give, it doesn't have to be. But it isn't naturally compromised either.

To put in human terms, in the developed world our resistance to certain pathogens isn't as strong as in many parts of the developing world. Simply because we are not exposed to the same pathogens. However assuming we are healthy we have the same ability to develop that resistance unless our immune system is compromised, for example by AIDS.

In tangs, resistance is low due to low exposure to the pathogens. However if the immune system is given time to develop resistance prior to a stress event triggering a full on infection then the fish is more likely to be able to stave off the pathogen once that event inevitably happens.

Resistance needs to be maintained of course... So should you ever see any requests for people to send their dead fish that'll be why!!

 

[Paul B]

You can't mix the two systems, you need to focus on one. If you want to go the natural, immune route, I would not quarantine anything in copper for more than 10 days, preferably not at all. We want parasites, we don't want or need to eliminate them. That is quarantine thinking and a totally different system. That is why some people fail with a natural system, they try to take parts of it and parts of a quarantined system and mix them. That doesn't work.
What Brew said about algae is true. Don't put too much stock in what you read on the internet and from rumors. That is inside the box thinking. If you want to know what grows in the sea put on some SCUBA gear and go there to see for yourself. If you remove the algae eaters, the sea and coral reefs would become covered in algae very shortly.
I took this off an isolated Island on Hawaii. For some reason urchins and tangs disappeared rom this reef and it is covered in algae.




Places that are full of urchins are algae free.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Heard loud and clear @Paul B and @Brew12.

I will amend QT process and remove the copper part... I didn't actually do that part for the one fish that's been through the process as it came from a known disease free tank, so won't be doing it for new additions. I think I'll keep the slowly slowly approach to pathogen exposure and combine with observation and feeding.

Thanks for the input... why does thinking have to involve boxes? Surely if boxes were required we'd be delivered by UPS not a midwife

 

[Brew12]

Heard loud and clear @Paul B and @Brew12.

I will amend QT process and remove the copper part... I didn't actually do that part for the one fish that's been through the process as it came from a known disease free tank, so won't be doing it for new additions. I think I'll keep the slowly slowly approach to pathogen exposure and combine with observation and feeding.

Thanks for the input... why does thinking have to involve boxes? Surely if boxes were required we'd be delivered by UPS not a midwife

Really hard to hold the water without a box to put it in.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Really hard to hold the water without a box to put it in.

So true, so true!

 

[atoll]

Inspired by...

Tink about going down te ATS route rather than pellets then. I have been doing things my way but similar in many respects to Paul but for only about 30 years pf my 36 in reefkeeping. I have tried pellets etc and find an ATS is a far better option when it comes to reducing nutrients and other things like heavy metals etc.

 

[atoll]

Just read a very interesting paper on the ability of Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) to render parasites unviable...

DHA is better known as omega 3... a fatty acid which is mostly found in fish oils, particularly in the skin...

Could this possibly be evolutions way of dealing with those pesky skin parasites??

I can foresee an experiment involving a fish afflicted with velvet and some cod liver oil...

Hence why I have been adding fish oil with omega 3 for quite some years. I buy capsules from ASDA UK (Wallmart to you) and add the contents of a few capsules to my home made foods and others I can't make. I make enough foods up for 3 days and keep in the fridge feeding my fish and corals 3 or 4 times per day.

 

[jaws789832]

My concern would be with aggression issues with new fish. So you take a fish that has traveled halfway around the world in a plastic baggy, been thrown in who knows how many tanks with different parameters. Been stressed to hell and high water, then just throw him in your tank. He is all ready immune compromised and scared out of his mind, and now he has to deal with territorial issues and pathogens in a glass box. Seems he wouldn't stand a chance without some sort of relaxation period (observation tank). I cant remember what is all stocked in your tank but I know you have damsels which are very territorial and can be aggressive. When I put my copperband in my DT, My Powder Brown and yellow tang chased him relentlessly for about a week. That was even with feeding 4 times a day to try and mellow them out, and with putting the copperband in an acclimation box in the DT for a week. I don't think the copperband would have survived if I didn't put him in the observation tank for over a month in the beginning, to get him eating well (all live food) and get his strength up. Now all three of them hang out together and are the best of buds.

 

[atoll]

Just read a very interesting paper on the ability of Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) to render parasites unviable...

DHA is better known as omega 3... a fatty acid which is mostly found in fish oils, particularly in the skin...

Could this possibly be evolutions way of dealing with those pesky skin parasites??

I can foresee an experiment involving a fish afflicted with velvet and some cod liver oil...

Hence why I have been adding fish oil with omega 3 to my home made fish foods for many years. I buy fish oil capsules from ASDA wich is the UK branch of Wallmart and add the contents of 3 capsules to enough food to last about 3 days feeding 3 or 4 times per day. I have not had an outbreak of a disease in 25 years and never quarantine my fish. Most live long lives and spawn regular

, try and stop them.

I don't run UV nor ozone but I have been using Oxdators for around 30 years now but it seems few in the US seem to know much about them