It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Paul B]

My 2 sons hardly know which end of a hammer to hold (Hammer a tool you use to bang things with apart from Pauls supermodels you can't bang them with a hammer or they will cry).

My Son n Law doesn't know which end of a screwdriver to use to hammer in a nail with.

This isn't true. Cancer is a 'disease', toxins in the tank cause 'disease'. When your fish starve that is a 'disease'. If you're trying to suggest that your fish never die of infectious disease (parasites or bacteria) - I apologetically don't believe you can document that.

I kind of think I already did.
But if you can't show me a quarantined tank, not one, with old spawning fish where the fry live, that is at least anecdotal proof that it doesn't work well. I proved it with pictures. I see no pictures of that in any quarantined tank. What other proof can I use? Do you want to sleep in front of my tank for 15 years?

Scientific proof of what? That is anecdote. There is a reason that scientific institutions use quarantine methods in their aquaria. Thats because its been proven to work.

They do that because they are studying diseases just like they use sterile rats to study. It is not proven to work. It is just as you say anecdotal. But my system is.
This picture was taken in 1999. That fireclown on the far left is still with me and was about 15 years old there. I would think some parasites would have taken him out by now.

since you dont clearly define exactly what you mean by quarantine its hard to know exactly what you're talking about.

I define quarantine as time alone from other fish in a bare or semi bare tank decorated with plumbing fittings fed food without living bacteria in it and devoid of pathogens.

. The reason most fish don't die of 'old age' is that most people don't keep aquaria as long as you do. They get tired of the hobby, they get tired of the fish and get new ones

It seems many of them get out because of too many diseases.

I would suggest to you that most of the 'problems' with certain types of quarantine result from people not doing it correctly.

They also don't use my method correctly

I would suggest that I'm lucky.

Why not, People tell me that all the time.

I think what you did is 'cruel' and unethical.

I think its natural and helping the fish to stay alive because that method is "proven" to keep fish healthier

 

[elisa h]

Except he killed over half his fish doing it. You can’t just throw some fresh food and selcon in the tank and expect the fish to be magically immune

 

[MnFish1]

I see no pictures of that in any quarantined tank. What other proof can I use? Do you want to sleep in front of my tank for 15 years?

Correlation is not causation. You have had success keeping the things that can tolerate the conditions you provide. You cannot keep things that others want to keep. You keep a unique set-up - and I have said over and over that you clearly have success. What I disagree with is the logic you use to defend it. For example - the spawning thing - my anthers spawn regularly. My gold flake angels spawn regularly. They are not fed clams. They were quarantined. The misconception and downright falsehood that you keep espousing is that once a fish goes into a quarantine situation that it does not replenish its natural microbiome. Its simply not true. No foods are 'sterile'. Including 'flake food'.

I think its natural and helping the fish to stay alive because that method is "proven" to keep fish healthier

approximately 50 percent of that posters fish died that is a ridiculous 'experiment' - and I think you do a dis-service condoning it.

 

[MnFish1]

It seems many of them get out because of too many diseases.

Based on what data? I disagree.

They also don't use my method correctly

I have yet to see the 'essential' parts of your method listed. I know about the food. I know about the 'no quarantine'. I also know you have a specialized filter and sky high parameters that are detrimental to many coral species. That is the reason many people dont use your method - I would guess. People want to keep SPS. I remain curious - how many fish have you added on average in a month for the last 12 months to your system?

 

[jasonrusso]

Based on what data? I disagree.



I have yet to see the 'essential' parts of your method listed. I know about the food. I know about the 'no quarantine'. I also know you have a specialized filter and sky high parameters that are detrimental to many coral species. That is the reason many people dont use your method - I would guess. People want to keep SPS. I remain curious - how many fish have you added on average in a month for the last 12 months to your system?

Why do you feel the need to discredit this method?

You are obviously using the QT method and it works well for you. That does not mean that there is another method that can work as well. To be honest, Paul and the OP have a method that is easier and more fun (less rules) than the QT method (that I use).

You are like a pretty girl that feels that if another girl is pretty that takes something away from you. Both methods can work. I don't know why you think you need to keep ******** on this thread.

 

[Paul B]

Except he killed over half his fish doing it. You can’t just throw some fresh food and selcon in the tank and expect the fish to be magically immune

Of course you can't do that, That would be ridiculous. No one would do that. If you did you would kill half or all of your fish. I never said anything like that and I don't use Selcon

No foods are 'sterile'. Including 'flake food'.

Flake food is sterile in regard to anything that will keep a fishes immunity functioning. Fish fed no living bacteria from foods from the sea and not exposed to pathogens will always have no Immune system and if you introduce a parasite, they will die. My fish love parasites just as they do in the sea. If your fish are spawning, the fry also have no immunity ,if they live long enough to test that.
Fish with no immunity are not healthy just as a human with no immunity is not healthy and if that person rode the subway, they would also die.

 

[elisa h]

Of course you can't do that, That would be ridiculous. No one would do that. If you did you would kill half or all of your fish. I never said anything like that and I don't use Selcon



Flake food is sterile in regard to anything that will keep a fishes immunity functioning. Fish fed no living bacteria from foods from the sea and not exposed to pathogens will always have no Immune system and if you introduce a parasite, they will die. My fish love parasites just as they do in the sea. If your fish are spawning, the fry also have no immunity ,if they live long enough to test that.
Fish with no immunity are not healthy just as a human with no immunity is not healthy and if that person rode the subway, they would also die.

I wasn't trying to discredit what you do, I actually find it quite interesting and incorporate a lot of your feeding tips. I was just replying to the poster who said he fed his fish selcon and fish from the market then decided to introduce ich into the tank. He said 5 out of his 11 fish survived. It just shocked me that thats what he got from reading this thread and made me sad for the fish who suffered.

 

[Dom274]

Based on what data? I disagree.



I have yet to see the 'essential' parts of your method listed. I know about the food. I know about the 'no quarantine'. I also know you have a specialized filter and sky high parameters that are detrimental to many coral species. That is the reason many people dont use your method - I would guess. People want to keep SPS. I remain curious - how many fish have you added on average in a month for the last 12 months to your system?

People don't want to keep sps - People want to be successful.

I think the "Must QT" people have gotten out of hand - I don't think it's good for the future of the hobby - I think it scares potentially successful people from even trying due to all the "QT requirements". QT tanks are for people who like to purchase from "questionable" vendors, trade with other local reefers, or rescue abused fish. For someone new just starting out, you don't need to QT the clownfish pair or frag of GSP you're starting with. I don't QT (In fact I don't even really acclimate anymore, I just float the bag for 5 min) because I could never wrap my head around paying more for medication than I did for the fish...

 

[Greenstreet.1]

People don't want to keep sps - People want to be successful


Don’t understand this ^^^

 

[Gweeds1980]

Based on what data? I disagree.



I have yet to see the 'essential' parts of your method listed. I know about the food. I know about the 'no quarantine'. I also know you have a specialized filter and sky high parameters that are detrimental to many coral species. That is the reason many people dont use your method - I would guess. People want to keep SPS. I remain curious - how many fish have you added on average in a month for the last 12 months to your system?

As the OP, here's my list of 'essential' parts of this method...
1. Bacterial biodiversity - as much as possible.
2. Fresh or freshly frozen WHOLE seafood
3. Fresh or freshly frozen seaweed (from the sea, not the store)
4. Parasites
5. A method of introducing non immune fish to the parasites and pathogens in the DT.
6. UV or other sterilisation method on standby.

This is somewhat different to @PaulB but that is down to personal preferences. My tank is nowhere near as old or established as Paul's so I feel it's prudent to have something on standby 'just in case'. Just as everyone who quarantines has meds on standby.

Whilst I'm at it, somewhere above, the question was posed about what 'quarantined' meant. For the record, i am a mod on another reef forum and i curate the disease and treatment forum. I have written articles on disease treatment and on good quarantine practices. Here is an extract from my 'how to' on fish quarantine; this is what I mean when i say quarantined (this was what I did for years):
Day 1. Introduce fish to the food you'll be using... ensure they are eating prior to starting any treatments. Feed and allow the fish to settle for 24 hours, then move on to day 2.

Day 2. A quick freshwater dip is on the cards... get a bucket of RO, heat to the QT temperature and add some alk to bring it up to the same alk and pH as the QT. Using your QT net, pop the fish in for about 3 minutes. NEVER exceed 5 minutes. Observe constantly. If the fish cowers in a corner and breathes a bit rapidly this is ok, it's dealing with osmotic shock. If it turns on its side, floats at the surface or otherwise looks in severe stress, remove it immediately. This will remove most flukes and about 80-90% of ich or velvet parasites. Put the fish back in the QT, allow it to settle and then feed as normal.

Day 3. Start treatment of praziquantel (or equivalent anti fluke treatment). Follow the manufacturers instructions to the letter. I happen to have a packet of Fluke-Solve so I'll use that as the example here. It requires a 24 hour treatment so I'll add it in the morning on a day I can observe throughout the day. The following morning I will carry out a 100% WC and add more atm colony.

Day 4. Observe and feed once the WC is complete.

Day 5. Assuming all is well, we start copper or CP treatment today. Again follow the instructions to the letter. If using CP it's a little more Heath Robinson as there aren't any CP based fish treatments available any more. You'll need to get hold of 99% CP and dose at 40mg per US gallon. We will be leaving this treatment in for 30 days, regardless of whether you are using CP or copper. If it's CP then dose and observe for 30 days. If copper, you will need an appropriate test kit (chelated or ionic copper, depending on which product you dose) you will need to test twice per day, ensuring that the copper level never falls outside of the therapeutic range (0.35 to 0.5ppm for ionic copper or 1.5 to 2.0ppm for chelated copper). This level needs to be maintained for the entire 30 days. With both, if you carry out a WC ensure you dose the appropriate amount of CP or copper into the new water.

Day 35. 100% WC and run carbon on the new water to remove the copper or CP. Start a 7 day observation period. Should you see any signs of disease then treat accordingly.

Day 43... use the drip acclimation method to introduce the fish to your display.

The last step is to break down your QT and sterilise it. Ich is by far the most resilient disease we come across so by sterilising against it, we can be sure were getting rid of everything else too. Start by removing all the equipment from the tank, dismantling it and soaking everything wet in bleach. Then rinse, dry it all out and leave outside for at least 24 hours before using again. For the tank itself, use elbow grease and biological washing detergent to physically clean it. Then rinse out and fill with water between 40 and 50°c and add 10ml per litre of 6% h2o2. Leave for 2 hours, keeping temp between 40 and 50°C and then rinse and leave to dry for 24 hours. The detergent will remove any biofilm. The h2o2 will kill any bacteria and the hot water will kill off ich or velvet cysts (ich cannot survive in any form in 40°C for more than an hour).

 

[Paul B]

I wasn't trying to discredit what you do, I actually find it quite interesting and incorporate a lot of your feeding tips. I was just replying to the poster who said he fed his fish selcon and fish from the market then decided to introduce ich into the tank. He said 5 out of his 11 fish survived. It just shocked me that thats what he got from reading this thread and made me sad for the fish who suffered.

I agree. There is way more to my system and quarantinq than these simple things we are having fun discussing here. I know quaranting works and Mn knows my system works, they are just two different systems and two different ways to keep fish. They are your fish, take care of them the way you think is best for you and your fish. This is a fish forum, if we didn't discuss this we would all have to go watch Oprah give away Cadillac's to homeless cats.

I have yet to see the 'essential' parts of your method listed. I know about the food. I know about the 'no quarantine'. I also know you have a specialized filter and sky high parameters that are detrimental to many coral species. That is the reason many people dont use your method - I would guess. People want to keep SPS. I remain curious - how many fish have you added on average in a month for the last 12 months to your system?

I have not added any fish to my system in probably 6 months. I am moving soon and will probably lost some of them in transit by jumping out or freezing but I will try my best to avoid that. I don't have to add fish because all sorts of parasites are happily living in my tank. In a few weeks I will again start adding mud to my tank and I will fill my tank with 100% NSW because my new house is right near the sea.
As I said, my lousy parameters are not my system, I do not want those parameters, that is just part of the fact I am very busy and my main interest for the last 15 or so years has been to get all my paired fish to spawn. As I also say many times there are things I find boring, tangs, anglefish and most SPS corals.
I have had every tang, anglefish and most corals, I am over that and more interested in healthy, spawning, interesting fish that may not be the most colorful fish but that is my interest. I find my tank to be very natural looking and I have spent almost 300 hours underwater so I try to emulate what I see.
I dove here 2 weeks ago and most of the shallow sea is filled with sea fans and gorgonians, I just like them better.


The sea is also filled with algae


But because of these forums many people feel that is a curse.
I have kept SPS since they were "invented". Very nice but boreing. If that is your thing, go for it.
I like small interesting fish like clingfish, gobies, pipefish, perchlets, weird gobies etc.

I can quote scientific studies but I prefer to do my own research through my own experience. I was called many times to cure fish in wholesalers in New York. It is a proven fact that any living organism with an immune system depends on disease pathogens to remain healthy. I didn't make that up and I am not sure why it is so hard to grasp. Just keep the bacteria and parasites that are naturally in the sea in your tank with the fish where they were designed to be. It's simple because if you don't try to kill them or quarantine them out they will stay alive in your tank tasting some of your fish slime so they can reproduce and keep the fish healthy. We call them parasites because we don't like them but they were hear when fish were invented and they are needed like every other living thing as part of a natural ecosystem. Healthy fish fed the right foods have no issue with them. For the book I wrote I researched this for many months and I could not find one thing against keeping a fishes immunity working naturally through the bacteria and pathogens they were built to live with.

Everyone has tangs and that is great, but the sea is filled with them as they are the most common fish around a reef. I don't like common.
The fact is that my tank and Atolls tank are immune and have been for decades. Almost no one can claim that through quaranting, but if you need to quarantine your fish to keep them alive, go for it. I prefer natural in the way I aquascape and the way my fish live. Immune from everything just as they are in the sea. The disease forum is filled with sick fish posts which Atoll and myself see as a waste of a fishes life because there is no reason fish should get sick. They are not delicate creatures unless we do in natural things to them like try to keep they away from all the things that they were born to live with and eat every day.
I already posted probably on here that the biggest hurdle we have in sending people into space for long periods is the lack of disease bacteria. The astronauts will shortly lose their immunity and have a very hard time if they want to come back to Earth. It is just not natural.
I posted this before but I think it fell on deaf ears. Now we should see scientific studies that say to keep natural pathogens away from fish

Quote:
"Popular Science" (August 2015) The author states that the most germ free environment today is on the International Space Station. Everything is sterilized including the air. All the surfaces are coated with bacteria limiting coatings, even the water is treated with iodine and biocidal nano silver so the only bacteria present are the ones coming from the astronauts themselves. They can't open a window or send out for Pizza so there is no fresh influx of microbes to balance the ecosystem. End Quote. Sounds like quarantining doesn't it? He also states that a loss of gut bacteria correlates with many diseases and could impede longer space travel. If we lose our gut bacteria, our immune system goes dormant.
In the real world bacteria, viruses and parasites evolved right along with other organisms that help keep each organism in check. They have their enemies and friends. When we mess with the system by using antibiotics or extended periods of quarantine, or remove living bacteria from their food, we are dooming the fish to a life where they are on the verge of getting a fatal disease.
This is also the reason so many diseases are contracted in hospitals, a place where great pains are taken to keep the place clean. They are clean, so the only bacteria present are from sick people with no other bacteria or viruses to counteract them. It is now thought that people using those hand sanitizers from very young are at a higher risk of becomming an allergic toddler.

Quote:
Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.

​

 

[Gareth elliott]

I want to agree with all of the above.

Yes the disease management systems work for paul and atoll. But...

As far as losing 5 out of 11 fish to velvet and expecting feeding new fish well, will mean they will all survive? I think there is more to each of their systems than food alone.
You cant cure polio with vitamin c.(even though there are still believers out there). But those raised on farms do have the least occurrence asthma, regardless of air pollutants proximity.(study done in Sweden a decade ago i would have to look up to post the full bibliography)

Not least, they both also use some form of oxidation in their respective tanks. If your going to attempt disease management instead of irradiation, its best to read and follow their entire method.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

I want to agree with all of the above.

Yes the disease management systems work for paul and atoll. But...

As far as losing 5 out of 11 fish to velvet and expecting feeding new fish well, will mean they will all survive? I think there is more to each of their systems than food alone.
You cant cure polio with vitamin c.(even though there are still believers out there). But those raised on farms do have the least occurrence asthma, regardless of air pollutants proximity.(study done in Sweden a decade ago i would have to look up to post the full bibliography)

Not least, they both also use some form of oxidation in their respective tanks. If your going to attempt disease management instead of irradiation, its best to read and follow their entire method.

You are on track. I also believe that they have a great method when it comes to fish that works for them I use parts of it and can’t go full blown with it as I’m an SPS guy and those crazy levels will not work with my sps.

 

[Paul B]

I want to agree with all of the above.

Yes the disease management systems work for paul and atoll. But...

As far as losing 5 out of 11 fish to velvet and expecting feeding new fish well, will mean they will all survive? I think there is more to each of their systems than food alone.
You cant cure polio with vitamin c.(even though there are still believers out there). But those raised on farms do have the least occurrence asthma, regardless of air pollutants proximity.(study done in Sweden a decade ago i would have to look up to post the full bibliography)

Not least, they both also use some form of oxidation in their respective tanks. If your going to attempt disease management instead of irradiation, its best to read and follow their entire method.

Very little of that is what i and Atoll do. We don't do that and we don't lost fish. I know many people feel we just want to advocate throwing any fish into a tank and it will be fine. In our tanks it will but not in a tank that was set up quarantined as those fish will die if you put wild fish in there. There is much more to it but most of that is to set up the tank naturally in the first place.

No one seems to understand that if you quarantine a fish and keep it away from disease it will lose the ability to fight any disease. This is a simple thing and it works on every living thing except plants maybe, I am not a botanist.

 

[atoll]

You are on track. I also believe that they have a great method when it comes to fish that works for them I use parts of it and can’t go full blown with it as I’m an SPS guy and those crazy levels will not work with my sps.

My tank has many SPS as I have shown on my tank thread inc YouTube videos I have posted. My nutrients are low due to my water management inc but not limited to my waterfall ATS. I frag my SPS often and sell ir give the frags away. Although I share many things with Paul I also do a few things differently some of which achieve similar results e.g. Paul uses ozone where I prefer to use Oxydators for reasons I have stated many times. However even with our few differences our results are very similar.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

My tank has many SPS as I have shown on my tank thread inc YouTube videos I have posted. My nutrients are low due to my water management inc but not limited to my waterfall ATS. I frag my SPS often and sell ir give the frags away. Although I share many things with Paul I also do a few things differently some of which achieve similar results e.g. Paul uses ozone where I prefer to use Oxydators for reasons I have stated many times. However even with our few differences our results are very similar.

You have a more controlled system than Paul just look at your nutrients his is off the charts yours is low that’s why you can keep sticks.
I bet you take an sps from your tank put it In His and it won’t make it.
Can you send the link to your thank thread.

And to be honest the only thing you and Paul do the same is the fish your tank is not really a Paul B tank.

 

[MnFish1]

Why do you feel the need to discredit this method?

You are obviously using the QT method and it works well for you. That does not mean that there is another method that can work as well. To be honest, Paul and the OP have a method that is easier and more fun (less rules) than the QT method (that I use).

You are like a pretty girl that feels that if another girl is pretty that takes something away from you. Both methods can work. I don't know why you think you need to keep ******** on this thread.

Jason you apparently haven't read what I wrote. I dont use a QT method - have said it many times. I have also said Paul has had great success with his method - but that the nutrient levels wouldn't work for those people that want to keep certain SPS and other corals. I have also said that both methods can work.

So to answer your question - im NOT trying to discredit 'Paul's method'. Im trying to get Paul to give rational explanations for why he thinks his method works. No more no less. BTW - in case you aren't familiar with the TOS of this forum, "Posts containing explicit, obscene or vulgar language, images or links to websites with adult content/images or punctuation marks designed to "trick" our obscenity filter will be removed. There is a zero tolerance of profanity, vulgarity and masked vulgarity; any posts which contain such are subject to deletion."

 

[MnFish1]

People don't want to keep sps - People want to be successful.

I think the "Must QT" people have gotten out of hand - I don't think it's good for the future of the hobby - I think it scares potentially successful people from even trying due to all the "QT requirements". QT tanks are for people who like to purchase from "questionable" vendors, trade with other local reefers, or rescue abused fish. For someone new just starting out, you don't need to QT the clownfish pair or frag of GSP you're starting with. I don't QT (In fact I don't even really acclimate anymore, I just float the bag for 5 min) because I could never wrap my head around paying more for medication than I did for the fish...

I agree with this - the only quarantine system I use is watching any potential fish in the LFS in a reef -type tank with no copper or meds. If it looks healthy I buy it - have never had a problem.

 

[MnFish1]

Paul and Atoll - the way to prove your tanks are 'immune' is to document that the living parasites are currently in the tank. There is no doubt that fish develop immunity to parasites. Almost ALL of the fish that are collected in the wild are 'immune' to most of these parasites. In the wild fish can produce thousands of eggs and of these only a small number survive. Some of this is predation - but a lot of it revolves around death from disease and parasites. The fish the grow and survive are 'immune' to an extent. Google the studies that compare quarantine to just dropping fish in the tank - there isn't that much difference in survival rates because most fish obtained in the wild are have partial or complete immunity to the strains of disease 'in their area'. The problems tend to occur when fish from one locale with a certain strain of disease are exposed to another strain from another area.

 

[Dom274]

You have a more controlled system than Paul just look at your nutrients his is off the charts yours is low that’s why you can keep sticks.
I bet you take an sps from your tank put it In His and it won’t make it.

I thought the "0 nitrates is good" myth was finally busted? High nutrients aren't the problem for SPS, it's all about stability.