It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[MnFish1]

The fact that there are exceptions to the rule means it cannot be proven by science. We cannot prove that the copper used at the recommend levels will kill all strains of CI. We cannot prove that a 72 day fallow period will eliminate all CI strains. We use the available science as the basis for these recommendations. Hence, decisions based on science but not proven by science. This is the key. We cannot prove the bacteria we add to our system or are in their food are the strains the fish need to boost their immune system. There is a scientific basis for trying to add these bacteria in an effort to boost the fish's immune system. So again, based on science, not proven by science. It doesn't matter if it is @atoll or @Paul B using live food and ocean muck to keep fish parasite resistant or myself or @4FordFamily using copper to treat fish prior to adding them to our systems. Any success or failures we have are completely anecdotal. There is science to support both methods. Neither method can be proven to work via science. There are too many variables each way.

Of course what you say above about 'proof' is true. Likewise, when people use the term 'scientific proof' they (as I was) usually are suggesting that the preponderance of evidence favors one method or another to explain an observation. In this case, I would humbly suggest that one side relies on a mixture of anecdotal stories to explain their success and the other side relies on established scientific protocols used by zoos and major national and international aquariums. Thats not to say that a person cant have success using either or even components of both methods.

To make it perfectly clear - I think its entirely possible for Paul, Atoll and others to run their aquariums and be successful. It is my opinion that feeding random live bacteria or constantly exposing their fish to parasites is not as important, as compared to providing good water conditions (stable at least) and excellent food is far more important. Unless the food contains a bacteria specific to the location from which the fish is from - and has been shown to be specifically beneficial to that fish. Additionally, the studies that show benefits to probiotics are using this as a supplement in specific numbers with specific bacteria. Thus, the use of Reef Frenzy, for example with probiotics (which I use) does seem to make good sense.

Interestingly, many of the studies on probiotics in fish suggest, as I did above that they are most effective if they are host-specific probiotic additions. Also - studies suggest that it is antagonism between bacterial species and even antibiotic properties of certain bacterial toxins that provides the benefit though some also show general increase in immune function.

 

[Brew12]

Likewise, when people use the term 'scientific proof' they (as I was) usually are suggesting that the preponderance of evidence favors one method or another to explain an observation.

Human nature will make us weigh the evidence in our preferred method over other methods. It is very difficult for us to overcome our personal bias.

I would humbly suggest that one side relies on a mixture of anecdotal stories to explain their success and the other side relies on established scientific protocols used by zoos and major national and international aquariums.

It is true that most zoos and public aquariums still use very strict biosecurity. There is at least a minor shift in a different direction that has been adopted by the Seattle aquarium, among others. They now hold and QT fish for at least 21 days but only treat the fish if they see visible symptoms.
http://blog.seattleaquarium.org/conservation/2011-hawaii-collecting-trip-final-phases/

 

[4FordFamily]

Human nature will make us weigh the evidence in our preferred method over other methods. It is very difficult for us to overcome our personal bias.


It is true that most zoos and public aquariums still use very strict biosecurity. There is at least a minor shift in a different direction that has been adopted by the Seattle aquarium, among others. They now hold and QT fish for at least 21 days but only treat the fish if they see visible symptoms.
http://blog.seattleaquarium.org/conservation/2011-hawaii-collecting-trip-final-phases/

Indianapolis zoo fish have the worst HLLE I’ve ever seen, and buy powder blue tangs by the dozens.

They have tons of ich management capable fish thriving very large other than horrendous HLLE but I imagine they go back and forth between a ton of copper and hoping they fight it off on their own accord and when it doesn’t work they add more copper all over again. This would explain how the only acanthurus tang they have had long-term is an orange shoulder (more resistant than most acanthurus) and several small PBT I imagine they continue to buy. The fact is the largest PBT they have is 4” and sometimes they have a couple sometimes they have 20.

No scientific “proof” of any of that, just conjecture. I could be miles off or spot on.

 

[Paul B]

I just spent hours reading about fish immunity on sites like these. http://www.inmunologia.org/Upload/Articles/6/0/602.pdf

Now I feel all itchy and will go and have some linguine and clams.

 

[Brew12]

I just spent hours reading about fish immunity on sites like these. http://www.inmunologia.org/Upload/Articles/6/0/602.pdf

Now I feel all itchy and will go and have some linguine and clams.

Grand Marnier is a disinfectant.

 

[MnFish1]

I just spent hours reading about fish immunity on sites like these. http://www.inmunologia.org/Upload/Articles/6/0/602.pdf

Now I feel all itchy and will go and have some linguine and clams.

That is an interesting article....

 

[Paul B]

That is an interesting article....

Yes it is, there are so many more articles on this now than there was even two years ago. I gues these guys were following this thread.
Here is another one. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3645727/

But this one is much simpler and shorter.
https://thefishsite.com/articles/probiotics-to-boost-immune-fitness-and-gut-health

It is about how a fishes immune system has developed to be non specific which is how pro biotics work. I also believe that is how introducing northern bacteria and pathogens to tropical response can still elicit an immune response even though the pathogen is different from what the fish is used to meeting.

Quote: (excerpts)
Innate immune response = 1st consideration
As with mammals, the fish immune system can be separated by innate (non-specific) and adaptive (specific) responses. Compared to mammals, fish are more dependent on the innate immune response for two main reasons. First, the innate immune system has developed to be non-specific and is therefore capable of mounting an immune response against a wide range of pathogens.

The mucus functions to trap and remove pathogens by providing both a physical and chemical barrier, since it contains a number of antimicrobial compounds. This mucus layer can be modified by the commensal microbiota as well as probiotic bacteria.

All pathogens express pathogen associated molecular patterns (PAMPs) on their cell surface. These are recognized by their respective receptor molecules such as TLR’s which notify the host on the pathogen type (i.e. bacterial, viral, fungal etc.; Figure 3). Intestinal gene expression analyses, show that probiotics can up-regulate the expression of TLR2 by approximately five-fold in tilapia. TLR2 is important for recognizing Gram-positive bacteria.

 

[brwaldbaum]

Here's an interesting study on immunity to Neobenedenia sp. infection:

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jir/2015/635387/

Forty five days after exposure to flukes, the tilapia were heavily parasitized, and their mucosal antibody levels were at baseline. It wasn't until 102 days after initial exposure that the parasite loads were significantly decreased and the antibody levels significantly increased.

My question for those who rely on natural immunity in their aquarium: What do you do for the 102 days leading up to immunity? Hope your fish don't die?

 

[Gareth elliott]

Here's an interesting study on immunity to Neobenedenia sp. infection:

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jir/2015/635387/

Forty five days after exposure to flukes, the tilapia were heavily parasitized, and their mucosal antibody levels were at baseline. It wasn't until 102 days after initial exposure that the parasite loads were significantly decreased and the antibody levels significantly increased.

My question for those who rely on natural immunity in their aquarium: What do you do for the 102 days leading up to immunity? Hope your fish don't die?

Oh talapia, so these types of studies are really geared to aquaculture. While there is some insight to other species. I see no mention on where they tested the fish. Was this a farm? Were they fish gathered from a farm? There are many factors with aqua-cultured fish that decrease an immune response. I doubt at the stocking levels and care taken with an aquarium it would take nearly that long.

Side note our love of this cichlid has turned the most ecologically diverse freshwater fish population into one of the least; Lake Victoria.

 

[brwaldbaum]

Oh talapia, so these types of studies are really geared to aquaculture. While there is some insight to other species. I see no mention on where they tested the fish. Was this a farm? Were they fish gathered from a farm? There are many factors with aqua-cultured fish that decrease an immune response. I doubt at the stocking levels and care taken with an aquarium it would take nearly that long.

Side note our love of this cichlid has turned the most ecologically diverse freshwater fish population into one of the least; Lake Victoria.

"Seventeen individually tagged, 1-2-year-old fish (12.1–16.5 ± 1.21 cm and 30.0–85.1 ± 14.6 g), raised in fresh water, and naïve to N. melleni were acclimated to seawater over a 5–7-day period and maintained in an outdoor 400-gallon fiberglass tank under flow-through conditions at natural photoperiod until exposure. Fish were fed once daily to satiation (Silver Cup Trout Chow, Nelson and Sons; Murray, UT). Fish were transferred to an indoor parasite challenge room and housed in a 30-gallon glass aquarium with a box filter (Marineland Penguin 200; Cincinnati, OH)."

 

[Dom274]

So keeping sps is not being successful ?

I never said that, my post was quite clear. You are attempting to put words in my mouth... Which leads me to believe that you know exactly what I said and are trying to troll me.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

I never said that, my post was quite clear. You are attempting to put words in my mouth... Which leads me to believe that you know exactly what I said and are trying to troll me.

Are you serious trying to troll you. That’s funny. You wrote it I did not i asked you what you mean by that how’s that trolling you ?

 

[Dom274]

Where in that did I say or ask if 0 no3 is good or bad ?

You didn't. Then again, I wasn't directly quoting you or attacking you. The quote was an air quote, identifiable by the first letter not being capitalized.



https://thewritepractice.com/when-you-use-quotation-marks/

3. Quotation marks reveal the use of sarcasm, irony, euphemisms, or slang.1
It’s become a thing in American culture to use air quotes. I realize we have some overseas readers, so for all those unfamiliar, air quotes are when you take the first two fingers of your hand and curl them like bunny ears.

The dude in this Wikipedia article has it down.

Air quotes designate that what you’re saying should not be taken at face value. You are being sarcastic or lying outright. In your writing, they’re used in the same way. For example:

Alice sat on a park bench and watched the “runners” turn their heads towards her, trying to make eye contact.

The quotation marks in this example indicate that the runners aren’t running so much as checking her out, and are being less than subtle about it.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Bro I think you are just look for conversation you just picked the wrong topic.
You answered what I asked you yesterday now you come with this.
Have a goodnight.

 

[Dom274]

Are you serious trying to troll you. That’s funny. You wrote it I did not i asked you what you mean by that how’s that trolling you ?

You are obviously on the defensive, indicating that I have attacked or offended you - Yet I'm completely confused... If I wanted to start a fight, I would at least bother to remember your name.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

You are obviously on the defensive, indicating that I have attacked or offended you - Yet I'm completely confused... If I wanted to start a fight, I would at least bother to remember your name.

[emoji23][emoji23]thank you for the laughs. Now stop derailing the thread with your foolishness I have no time for it.

 

[Gweeds1980]

A favour to ask as the OP... please can we try to keep the thread slightly on topic... thanks.

 

[Paul B]

Hey guys, Take it easy or I am going trolling, my boat is almost in the water. It's a "Fish" site.

My question for those who rely on natural immunity in their aquarium: What do you do for the 102 days leading up to immunity? Hope your fish don't die?

The fish don't die. Remember saltwater fish come from the sea where they are exposed every day and eat foods loaded with pathogens every day so that 102 days already went by there. They are already immune when we get them.

In that study they used sterilized seawater, fish don't come from sterilized seawater, that only happens in labs for scientific study.
Quote:
2.1. General
Tilapia (O. mossambicus) was monitored for antibody responses during the development of immunity against N. melleni over a four-month period. The seawater used in all aspects of this experiment was treated via a sand filter, canister filters, and an ultraviolet system. All experiments were conducted in accordance with the principles and procedures approved by the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee, University of Hawaii.

This is interesting and "may" be the reason I believe parasites can be alive and well in a tank for years without showing infection on the fish because they are immune from them. According to this article the fish (tilapia) become immune to certain parasites after a certain number of days which varies with different species. The parasites mentioned can graze on the outer layer of the fishes epidermis (and get a meal) while not triggering the fishes immune system to develop antibodies against them. This would not harm the fish as slime continually washes off the fish and is constantly re made.
This may also be the reason that many tanks quarantined for 72 days would not kill all the parasites. They can live forever on the outer layer of slime. Many quarantined tanks using that method go on to develop parasite infections so (in some species anyway) that 72 day thing just won't work.

Quote:
Unlike locally invasive pathogens such as I. multifiliis and U. imbelli, N. melleni appears to graze on the epidermis, likely decreasing its accessibility to the systemic immune system (Sato et al. [21]). This may be one explanation why previous studies on N. melleni have not identified specific antibodies after surface exposure; the exposure may not have been intense or long enough to induce mucus or serum antibody production.

 

[Brew12]

My question for those who rely on natural immunity in their aquarium: What do you do for the 102 days leading up to immunity? Hope your fish don't die?

In that study they used sterilized seawater, fish don't come from sterilized seawater, that only happens in labs for scientific study.

Actually, in the quoted study they did not use sterilized seawater.
"raised in fresh water, and naïve to N. melleni were acclimated to seawater"

Remember saltwater fish come from the sea where they are exposed every day and eat foods loaded with pathogens every day so that 102 days already went by there. They are already immune when we get them.

The fact that this is typically true of ocean fish is exactly why they needed to use freshwater fish and acclimate them to seawater. If they had used fish raised in seawater they couldn't have ensured that they did not already have an immunity toward the N. melleni.
This is also why fresh water black mollies work so well to determine if there are parasites in a system. They will not be immune to anything in the tank and the black color shows most parasites very clearly.

 

[Brew12]

Indianapolis zoo fish have the worst HLLE I’ve ever seen, and buy powder blue tangs by the dozens.

They have tons of ich management capable fish thriving very large other than horrendous HLLE but I imagine they go back and forth between a ton of copper and hoping they fight it off on their own accord and when it doesn’t work they add more copper all over again.

This is just sad. It is also why I tell people that if you aren't going to QT, make sure you go all out with supporting the fish's immune system. I haven't even seen anecdotal success with people who switch back and forth or who do either in a 1/2 backside manner. Do what you decide, and do it well.