It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Paul B]

Actually, in the quoted study they did not use sterilized seawater.
"raised in fresh water, and naïve to N. melleni were acclimated to seawater"

Quote:

I found this there:

2.1. General
Tilapia (O. mossambicus) was monitored for antibody responses during the development of immunity againstN. melleni over a four-month period. The seawater used in all aspects of this experiment was treated via a sand filter, canister filters, and an ultraviolet system. All experiments were conducted in accordance with the principles and procedures approved by the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee, University of Hawaii.

The fact that this is typically true of ocean fish is exactly why they needed to use freshwater fish and acclimate them to seawater. If they had used fish raised in seawater they couldn't have ensured that they did not already have an immunity toward the N. melleni.

This is true. They probably didn't have access to saltwater fish that were raised away from NSW to perform the tests. It is easy to raise tilapia, I used to raise them myself.

 

[Paul B]

About HLLE. That is not a disease, just a symptom. I have a theory about how it occurs and I don't believe that carbon fine thing.
I believe it has to do with the lateral line on all true fish. That line is composed of tiny pores each connected to a nerve that goes straight to the brain. That allows fish to receive signals from all around it and can navigate in the dark and avoid a net and never crash into the glass even though they can't see it. But they can "feel it". That is also how blind fish navigate and also what allows blind cave fish to function.
In a tank, the fish continually gets input from the glass, but it can't see it or get away from it. Eventually this destroys those nerves or pits in the line. HLLE always starts on the head at the end of the lateral line and travels down the line.
I also believe that is why we can't keep some sharks like Great Whites in a square tank. They don't have a lateral line (as they are not true fish) but their sensory system is even more developed than bony fish. They just swim around a round tank probably thinking that eventually they will swim around the barrier which are the tank sides. Parallel and perpendicular walls do not exist in nature so the fish can just keep swimming until they get away from it.

 

[MnFish1]

Quote:

I found this there:

2.1. General
Tilapia (O. mossambicus) was monitored for antibody responses during the development of immunity againstN. melleni over a four-month period. The seawater used in all aspects of this experiment was treated via a sand filter, canister filters, and an ultraviolet system. All experiments were conducted in accordance with the principles and procedures approved by the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee, University of Hawaii. This is true. They probably didn't have access to saltwater fish that were raised away from NSW to perform the tests. It is easy to raise tilapia, I used to raise them myself.

And the reason that they have to use the UV is to prevent other disease from affecting the experiment.

One thing that is clear - taking a fish from the ocean, putting it into a tank with sterile water for a week and even treating it with various medications will not kill its entire microbiome - and the majority of fish treated in this manner thrive and do well and the bacteria left in the skin and the gut will repopulate. Especially, if they are not treated with medication, but merely observed, their microbiome will not be affected.

The reason trout farms are finding so much success in using probiotics is that many of them are feeding./treating the fish with antibiotics which changes their biome and makes them more susceptible to parasites, etc. (plus the crowded conditions).

The key to probiotic use is that just adding clams or fish from the sea do not add enough to be beneficial - and may not be the right 'type' for the fish. Thats why Reef Frenzy makes much more sense than grinding up my own food. They add a specific amount and type of probiotic that a correct dose.

Having said that, My conclusion from reading these 100's of posts are:

1. Feeding a balanced diet of either fresh/frozen/live in the right amounts is important.
2. Maintaining stable excellent water quality is important
3. Adding probiotics MAY improve a fish's natural resistance to disease (bacterial and parasitic)
4. Avoiding fish stress (netting, moving, etc is important)
5. If one uses medications for quarantine (or treating a disease) it is probably a good idea to use a pro-biotic containing food after the fact to replenish the gut and skin biome.
6. It is playing Russian roulette adding random types of bacteria, sand, foods, to an established tank in that new parasites may be added to which the inhabitants may not be exposed (even if the inhabitants of the tank are in excellent shape) - mainly because its impossible to know whether the dose of 'parasite' or 'bacteria' added is appropriate for the goal.
7. Since most ADULT fish obtained from NATURAL waters are immune or partially immune to at least cryptokaryon, maybe it makes sense to not use so much medication in QT systems unless a problem developed - any medication - including penicillin is toxic and can kill fish (or people) in high enough concentrations. Copper, Prazipro, metronidazole can be even MORE toxic, let alone formaldehyde, etc.
8. I think much of the variation is success using QT vs natural vs other relates to the source of the livestock at the time of purchase. For example, I had many more deaths when ordering from internet based suppliers than from my LFS (where I can monitor the fish for a time before purchase, know the source, and know how they have treated the fish. There is then a 15 minute travel time in a dark bag and 15 minutes floating in the tank - and the fish is free...

 

[MnFish1]

1. Of course you would. Although if you were truly interested you could easily find this on your own.

I decided to re-reply to this because my first one didnt really answer what you were trying to say. I had looked up all of those topics on my own - and most had multiple answers or potential answers - which is why I was asking you to show the references YOU were using to form your perspective (I wasnt trying to be a jerk).

2. Except that we do know which bacteria can be helpful.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41894408_Probiotics_and_immunity_A_fish_perspective
Here is a quote " The involvement of probiotics in nutrition, disease resistance and other beneficial activities in fish has proven beyond any doubt."

Also a quote from that article: Though the exact mode of action of probiotics is yet to be established in any animal including fish, probiotics often exert host specific and strain specific differences in their activities. Various factors like source, type, dose and duration of supplementation of probiotics can significantly affect the immunomodulatory activity of probiotics.

This suggests and its documented in the full article that just adding random bacteria to food is not beneficial - but rather that it is species (bacteria and fish) specific to some extent in the correct concentration (not too much and not too little) CAN be beneficial - but its not widely understood 'why' its beneficial.

3. So yes, we do know that bacteria boosts the immune system of a fish. You state that it is impossible to know which bacteria is present in the food we feed, which I agree with. We don't. LRS adds probiotic bacteria to their food based on this scientific research. Can we prove that the bacteria in the food is boosting our fishes immunity? No. However, we can say that LRS adds it to boost a fish's immune system based on science.

I use LRS and completely agree with that concept. I don't believe that there is an advantage to randomly picking up shellfish at the grocery store (or the shore) and suggesting that the bacteria therein is the same as dosing probiotics.

4. Do I need to provide a reference or is your own quote good enough?

The decrease in immune function as measure by cortisol lasts minutes - and likely plays a role ONLY when the stress is ongoing. Cortisol evolved to be 'beneficial' in stressful situations, not detrimental.

 

[MnFish1]

The fish don't die. Remember saltwater fish come from the sea where they are exposed every day and eat foods loaded with pathogens every day so that 102 days already went by there. They are already immune when we get them.

In that study they used sterilized seawater, fish don't come from sterilized seawater, that only happens in labs for scientific study.

Paul - in the ocean. Many young fish 'die' the first time they get ich or velvet or something else. If, however, they survive, the next time they are exposed, they are less likely to die. As they continue to get older, etc this becomes even less likely to cause a significant problem. Additionally, the Concentrations of cryptocaryon in the reef is quite small - which is another reason infections tend to be milder and less lethal than in tanks.

If the level of ich in a tank is high enough, a certain percentage (of even 'immune' fish will die).

 

[Gweeds1980]

Having said that, My conclusion from reading these 100's of posts are:

1. Feeding a balanced diet of either fresh/frozen/live in the right amounts is important.
2. Maintaining stable excellent water quality is important
3. Adding probiotics MAY improve a fish's natural resistance to disease (bacterial and parasitic)
4. Avoiding fish stress (netting, moving, etc is important)
5. If one uses medications for quarantine (or treating a disease) it is probably a good idea to use a pro-biotic containing food after the fact to replenish the gut and skin biome.
6. It is playing Russian roulette adding random types of bacteria, sand, foods, to an established tank in that new parasites may be added to which the inhabitants may not be exposed (even if the inhabitants of the tank are in excellent shape) - mainly because its impossible to know whether the dose of 'parasite' or 'bacteria' added is appropriate for the goal.
7. Since most ADULT fish obtained from NATURAL waters are immune or partially immune to at least cryptokaryon, maybe it makes sense to not use so much medication in QT systems unless a problem developed - any medication - including penicillin is toxic and can kill fish (or people) in high enough concentrations. Copper, Prazipro, metronidazole can be even MORE toxic, let alone formaldehyde, etc.
8. I think much of the variation is success using QT vs natural vs other relates to the source of the livestock at the time of purchase. For example, I had many more deaths when ordering from internet based suppliers than from my LFS (where I can monitor the fish for a time before purchase, know the source, and know how they have treated the fish. There is then a 15 minute travel time in a dark bag and 15 minutes floating in the tank - and the fish is free...

I like this... I'm glad that this thread has got this response. I largely agree - except the Russian roulette of adding random types of bacteria / parasites etc. Those pathogens added which are not tolerant of the aquarium conditions will die out - in the meantime they will be severely affected by the conditions and thus not nearly as virulent as they would otherwise be. Those that survive, almost by definition are able to operate within a reef environment and therefore it's likely that the strain / species exists on a wild reef somewhere and that fish are exposed to it. I totally buy the argument that a fish from the red sea will not have been exposed to the same pathogens as one from Indonesia, for example. What this argument seems to miss is that from the wholesaler onwards, all these fish from various locations around the world have been sharing the same water and the same tanks... thus they will have been exposed. Given the turnover of stock and lack of any type of biological firewall or fallow periods, over time practically every disease from every corner of the world will be in these tanks and those fish who survive to our tanks are likely to have some kind of resistance... otherwise, given the stress they have been subjected to already, they would already be exhibiting symptoms.

This isn't proveable, possibly not even probable and I'm sure it's not even 'supported by science'... but I am one of the few here with an 'advanced degree' in biology (albeit focussed on biofilms) and it makes sense to me...

We see the occurrence of cryptocaryon and velvet increasing year on year which seems to support my idea and unless / until distributors and wholesalers start to prophylactically treat all fish, this trend will continue.

10 years ago, uronema was virtually unknown in the UK. 5 years ago most people had heard of it but few had seen it... this year alone I have come across 3 separate cases of it causing death of one or more fish.

 

[Paul B]

Also if you have ever gone into an LFS just when it opens, there are dead fish in many of the tanks. I assume many of them died from disease as they have not been fed and spent long hours in a bag with little oxygen full of waste products and deaf fish from all over the place. It's a wonder any of them survive.

 

[MnFish1]

Also if you have ever gone into an LFS just when it opens, there are dead fish in many of the tanks. I assume many of them died from disease as they have not been fed and spent long hours in a bag with little oxygen full of waste products and deaf fish from all over the place. It's a wonder any of them survive.

I’m sure there are some like this. That said I think this was more of a problem years ago when shipping was so prolonged.

 

[brwaldbaum]

The fish don't die. Remember saltwater fish come from the sea where they are exposed every day and eat foods loaded with pathogens every day so that 102 days already went by there. They are already immune when we get them.

By immune, do you mean they suffer few health effects from the parasites or they resist becoming parasitized in the first place? I ask because wild reef fish are loaded with parasites:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...=Checklist_of_the_parasites_of_coral_reef.pdf

 

[Gweeds1980]

By immune, do you mean they suffer few health effects from the parasites or they resist becoming parasitized in the first place? I ask because wild reef fish are loaded with parasites:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...=Checklist_of_the_parasites_of_coral_reef.pdf

We need to stop thinking that immunity means that the fish don't get parasitised in the first place... just like in humans the immune system only kicks in AFTER you have come into contact with a disease and it has attempted to attack you... immunity is not a force field.

In the wild those fish harbour parasites 24/7. They grab a meal of skin, mucous or whatever, the antibodies kick in, the parasites fall off, often dead; sometimes alive; reproduce and go off happy. What that parasite cannot do is stick around for long as it is under attack from the moment it attaches to its host. In this way, there is is a balance achieved whereby the fish are attacked and thus maintain their immunity and enough parasites survive and reproduce to be able to continue attacking. It's this balance we strive to replicate in the aquarium.

So to answer the question, it is the former. Immune fish suffer no health affects from the parasites that do attack them and it is these very attacks which maintain the immune response.

The problem with removing all the parasites is that the immune response is also lost over time. Then when a parasite is accidentally introduced, the fish has no defence and it is overwhelmed and dies.

BTW that link doesn't work for me... so I am assuming it supports what I've said [emoji6]

 

[brwaldbaum]

Does attaching it work?

 

[brwaldbaum]

We need to stop thinking that immunity means that the fish don't get parasitised in the first place... just like in humans the immune system only kicks in AFTER you have come into contact with a disease and it has attempted to attack you... immunity is not a force field.

In the wild those fish harbour parasites 24/7. They grab a meal of skin, mucous or whatever, the antibodies kick in, the parasites fall off, often dead; sometimes alive; reproduce and go off happy. What that parasite cannot do is stick around for long as it is under attack from the moment it attaches to its host. In this way, there is is a balance achieved whereby the fish are attacked and thus maintain their immunity and enough parasites survive and reproduce to be able to continue attacking. It's this balance we strive to replicate in the aquarium.

So to answer the question, it is the former. Immune fish suffer no health affects from the parasites that do attack them and it is these very attacks which maintain the immune response.

The problem with removing all the parasites is that the immune response is also lost over time. Then when a parasite is accidentally introduced, the fish has no defence and it is overwhelmed and dies.

BTW that link doesn't work for me... so I am assuming it supports what I've said [emoji6]

The amount of time any individual parasite remains attached to its host is irrelevant. What I care about as a fish keeper is the total parasite load at any moment, and, in nature, that load is fairly high on average.

 

[Paul B]

By immune, do you mean they suffer few health effects from the parasites or they resist becoming parasitized in the first place? I ask because wild reef fish are loaded with parasites:

What Gweeds said. The parasites don't harm the fish at all.

You didn't read this, did you!

The parasites mentioned can graze on the outer layer of the fishes epidermis (and get a meal) while not triggering the fishes immune system to develop antibodies against them. This would not harm the fish as slime continually washes off the fish and is constantly re made.

This may also be the reason that many tanks quarantined for 72 days would not kill all the parasites. They can live forever on the outer layer of slime. Many quarantined tanks using that method go on to develop parasite infections so (in some species anyway)

That 72 day thing just won't work. If you have a problem with parasites and you want to kill all of them, you will have to treat with copper because of what I just said. The researchers who came up with that number (Burgess) I didn't believe him when he wrote that in the 60s and I don't believe him now. That theory is out the window so forget that fallow thing. That is also why so many threads mention that after 72 days, their fish died from ich, velvet or (pick any disease you like and insert it here) ___________

 

[Paul B]

I’m sure there are some like this. That said I think this was more of a problem years ago when shipping was so prolonged.

Almost all of them are like this. I normally go and "help" my favorite LFS take fish out of the shipping bags and there are plenty of losses. I flew a few times to the South Pacific and it takes 18 hours or more to get there. No matter how much you pay for a flight from New York, it takes at least 18 hours. If you buy a first class seat, pay extra for more leg room, buy a gourmet meal and have Angelina Jolie for a hostess, it takes at least 18 hours to get there. Sometimes 24 hours. Those fish are in that little bag with a bunch of other fish and many of them don't make it. Most of the times I flew there I almost don't make it.
I have helped start a few LFSs and became friends with a few more, they all have dead fish in the morning that they have to remove before customers come in. They may not tell you, but it is 100% true. I was at one last week and the plane was delayed, they lost a third of the shipment.
I have also watched them collect fish in the tropics and they even lose some there from I would imagine stress. Some just seem to get a heart attack and croak, especially if the collector is really scary looking.

 

[Gareth elliott]

. No matter how much you pay for a flight from New York, it takes at least 18 hours. If you buy a first class seat, pay extra for more leg room, buy a gourmet meal and have Angelina Jolie for a hostess, it takes at least 18 hours to get there. Sometimes 24 hours. Those fish are in that little bag with a bunch of other fish and many of them don't make it. Most of the times I flew there I almost don't make it. :

The next fee of the future, suborbital fish shipping.
“Need that fish in 2 hours? Upgrade shipping to Ballistic Air. Your delivery will get to you before you can bake a turkey.”

Only $2699 at checkout

 

[Brew12]

I have also watched them collect fish in the tropics and they even lose some there from I would imagine stress. Some just seem to get a heart attack and croak, especially if the collector is really scary looking.

Are the collectors playing reggae music or rap in their boats?

 

[MnFish1]

Almost all of them are like this. I normally go and "help" my favorite LFS take fish out of the shipping bags and there are plenty of losses. I flew a few times to the South Pacific and it takes 18 hours or more to get there. No matter how much you pay for a flight from New York, it takes at least 18 hours. If you buy a first class seat, pay extra for more leg room, buy a gourmet meal and have Angelina Jolie for a hostess, it takes at least 18 hours to get there. Sometimes 24 hours. Those fish are in that little bag with a bunch of other fish and many of them don't make it. Most of the times I flew there I almost don't make it.
I have helped start a few LFSs and became friends with a few more, they all have dead fish in the morning that they have to remove before customers come in. They may not tell you, but it is 100% true. I was at one last week and the plane was delayed, they lost a third of the shipment.
I have also watched them collect fish in the tropics and they even lose some there from I would imagine stress. Some just seem to get a heart attack and croak, especially if the collector is really scary looking.

I think you’re correct. But I also know shipping can be done safely. Though freshwater fish are diffeeent I have had several 6-7 inch discus shipped to me with no problem they were in the bags for 14 hours at least. I will ask my Lfs what their survival rate is from their shipper

 

[Paul B]

Are the collectors playing reggae music or rap in their boats?

Yes, all of them do and it kills a lot of fish and makes me Nauseous.

The places I go to I can tell the fish are slightly drugged to use less oxygen for the long flight. (maybe LSD) They also add something for parasites as it is slightly blue but I don't think it's copper. I will try to find out.

The flight is about 18 hours from the South Pacific but the fish are put in the box a few hours before that and take a few more hours for them to get off the plane, pass customs, get stuck in traffic which in NY could be 3 more hours. They don't just jump off the plane when they land as you know if you do any flying. So on a good day they can be in a box for 27 or more hours. Thats a long time with no TV.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Yes, all of them do and it kills a lot of fish and makes me Nauseous.

The places I go to I can tell the fish are slightly drugged to use less oxygen for the long flight. (maybe LSD) They also add something for parasites as it is slightly blue but I don't think it's copper. I will try to find out.

The flight is about 18 hours from the South Pacific but the fish are put in the box a few hours before that and take a few more hours for them to get off the plane, pass customs, get stuck in traffic which in NY could be 3 more hours. They don't just jump off the plane when they land as you know if you do any flying. So on a good day they can be in a box for 27 or more hours. Thats a long time with no TV.

Probably methylene blue, my guess anyway.

 

[Paul B]

Paul - in the ocean. Many young fish 'die' the first time they get ich or velvet or something else.

I think this is a rumored answer (I couldn't think of a better word) We really don't know if young fish in the sea die of disease as they get eaten so fast and it is really hard to study that. Those scientists sitting around in a lab in Cooz Bay Oregon don't do a lot of research in the ocean as they can't afford it and probably can't swim because they went to school on Tibet.
baby fish get their immunity from their Mother. (I posted that someplace here and I didn't make it up, but I probably would have if I couldn't read it) Their Mother was immune as all fish in the sea have to be.
If the Mother fish was in a quarantined tank for a long period of time and she has not been exposed to parasites, the babies will also have no immunity. For all the people who don't believe that, they should not read anything I post because that is the premise which I run my tank with and the reason my fish will never get sick.

See all these baby fish? I took this recently in (put a place here because I forgot where it was--------------------) Look at the 37th fish from the right about in the middle. Yes, even that fish, the one with the greenish blue eyes is immune from almost everything. I say almost because at this time probably all of them were eaten by something a little larger. If their Mother was quarantined, and not exposed to parasites, those fish would not be alive not would anything else in the sea. This is my point.

You may even notice some "Normal" hair algae to the right, but that is for another thread, A thread where people think they can "cure" it and feel it is a disease or curse from the Moon Goddess.