It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[MnFish1]

Well in many ways this thread goes round in circles and each side is never going to convince the other as to exactly why our fish (those of us whose fish don't tend to get sick) do so well, live long lives and spawn but we never QT and furthermore don't even believe in it.

I do not quarantine my fish - but my LFS does - I have never had a problem. They spawn. The are living >5 years now. In fact many people have stated repeatedly that fish can be immune to Ich, etc. It is you ( andPaul) who repeatedly seem to want to ascribe this to some miracle methodology or something)

Those who deny our methods are often the type who are unable to think outside the box and follow those who speak in an eloquent and have a greater command of the language. They sound very convincing and most will probably have an ology or more so you can understand why many will lean towards their ways.

Actually - the people that deny your methods (at least me) think you have made a completely unconvincing argument as to why your methods 'work'. No one has said your methods dont work.

 

[Paul B]

Thats cool, Thank you for showing me. But I never found a parasite on the gills of one of my fish that died of old age. I do see them all the time if I get a fish for free because it is sick in the store and it soon dies in my tank. Some fish are just to far gone to save.
Parasites on gills is not good. On the body of a fish means nothing and just lets you know there are parasites present. The gills get a stronger immune response from the fishes immune system because the gills are much more important than the slime on the scales.

 

[atoll]

I do not quarantine my fish - but my LFS does - I have never had a problem. They spawn. The are living >5 years now. In fact many people have stated repeatedly that fish can be immune to Ich, etc. It is you ( andPaul) who repeatedly seem to want to ascribe this to some miracle methodology or something)

Miracle? You jest sir. natural methodology more like.

Actually - the people that deny your methods (at least me) think you have made a completely unconvincing argument as to why your methods 'work'. No one has said your methods dont work.

Yes you, Just because we don't supply scientific data, I will put on a white coat, black rimmed glasses and carry a clipboard next time then when I report something I have been doing for over 25 years works for not just me and Paul but many others. People may not actually say our methods don't work they just place scorn and suggest in not so many words that what we do is unbelievable and they can't get their head around why our fish don't succumb to the various diseases given we never QT. The truth of the pudding and all that.

You keep subjecting your fish to stress and I will limit it as much as is possible. If your methods work for you fine I have no problems with that. I do suspect stress has a large part to play or lack of it in keeping a healthy tank. In many peoples theory with over 26 years and a number of tanks, I should have least had a few major outbreaks of itch or other. It seems to annoy the hell out of some people our fish are all very healthy and able to throw off or be immune enough not to catch the likes of itch and any other disease I put in there. I buy from many different LFS's some people will tell you never to buy fish from them as they don't QT and your fish are sure to catch itch etc.

Finally, both Paul and myself have often said I would never recommend anybody do what we do for whatever reason they might not work for you especially for new people in the hobby.

Right off to make some yummy yummy fish food.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

@MnFish1
What is your store that you get your fish from qt process ? And how do you know that they are doing the correct thing ?

 

[Paul B]

Greenstreet, You are from LI! Where do you live? I am in New Hyde Park

 

[atoll]

@MnFish1
What is your store that you get your fish from qt process ? And how do you know that they are doing the correct thing ?

Am sorry I am not sure what you are asking or suggesting.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Am sorry I am not sure what you are asking or suggesting.

It not really suggestion more of a question as to the stores quarantine process ? And how he knows that they are doing the correct thing.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Greenstreet, You are from LI! Where do you live? I am in New Hyde Park

I’m in Baldwin. I came and got the worms from you.

 

[MnFish1]

Miracle? You jest sir. natural methodology more like.

Yes you, Just because we don't supply scientific data, I will put on a white coat, black rimmed glasses and carry a clipboard next time then when I report something I have been doing for over 25 years works for not just me and Paul but many others. People may not actually say our methods don't work they just place scorn and suggest in not so many words that what we do is unbelievable and they can't get their head around why our fish don't succumb to the various diseases given we never QT. The truth of the pudding and all that.

You keep subjecting your fish to stress and I will limit it as much as is possible. If your methods work for you fine I have no problems with that. I do suspect stress has a large part to play or lack of it in keeping a healthy tank. In many peoples theory with over 26 years and a number of tanks, I should have least had a few major outbreaks of itch or other. It seems to annoy the hell out of some people our fish are all very healthy and able to throw off or be immune enough not to catch the likes of itch and any other disease I put in there. I buy from many different LFS's some people will tell you never to buy fish from them as they don't QT and your fish are sure to catch itch etc.

Finally, both Paul and myself have often said I would never recommend anybody do what we do for whatever reason they might not work for you especially for new people in the hobby.

Right off to make some yummy yummy fish food.

@atoll continuing to repeat things I haven't said - (or stating things I have said - when in fact I have said the opposite is getting 'old'. Additionally, combining what 'others have said'and implying that I agree with things they have said (as you did above) is also getting 'old'.

1. I have never 'scorned you'.
2. I have repeatedly stated that I do not quarantine my fish - but Im very selective as to where I purchase my stock. I also feed natural frozen foods - and try to maintain a stress free environment. I also use food with probiotics.
3. You and Paul have repeatedly stated that you don't recommend your methods - True - but you both become quite defensive when people ask for the logic behind your methods.
4. The fact that you 'dont supply scientific data' isn't a problem - everyone can learn from even observation/anecdote. Much of biology itself is in fact 'observational'. I do find it a problem when there is science that is available that suggests that the reasoning you are using is 'not correct - or not completely correct', you pretend that it is meaningless. That suggests that it is you who has the 'closed mind' as compared to the others... (JMHO)

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1
What is your store that you get your fish from qt process ? And how do you know that they are doing the correct thing ?

A local store who has a large quarantine section for observation. Treats fish that show disease with current methodology. Then place the treated fish in a medication free reef-type (i.e. living rock, inverts, etc) - which can then be observed further for any 'new disease' or issue for sometime before purchase. The prices are higher than the 'internet' - but I have not had a lost fish since purchasing from this establishment. They also carry high-end rare fish not available in other stores locally.

 

[atoll]

I’m in Baldwin. I came and got the worms from you.

Harr yes I see now, sorry, and it wasn't a question aimed at me.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Harr yes I see now, sorry, and it wasn't a question aimed at me.

All good brother. [emoji1531]

 

[Gareth elliott]

Also want to make clear i do value both atoll’s and Paul’s input. I may not follow your system but i have moved further to more natural foods. I stopped pellets all but once a week(only so they know they are food in an emergency. Second guessing to implement uv in a new build. Even thinking over ozone or the oxidator.

Why i will have a qt for fish and inverts.
I cant keep all of the fish or live stock that eat nuisance pests like flatworms, vermitids, etc. though they are present on a reef in the wild i cant ever create an environment of niche creatures to control them.

I follow this thread to learn .

Though i do naturally love a debate [emoji23]

 

[atoll]

1. I have never 'scorned you'.;/QUOTE]
I never said you had.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not quarantine my fish - but Im very selective as to where I purchase my stock. I also feed natural frozen foods - and try to maintain a stress free environment. I also use food with probiotics. [/Quote
Fine crack on but QT does take place and in doing so likely to cause the fish stress. I buy my fish anywhere as stated with no QT at the shop or when I get them home.

3. You and Paul have repeatedly stated that you don't recommend your methods - True - but you both become quite defensive when people ask for the logic behind your methods.

Simply because the same question get asked time and time again and the fact is our methods are seen to work and not just work but work over many many years, we can't help if the logic of what we do does not marry with what others do and have been told they must do. We become defensive when under attack that is what defence is. Our methodology is well documented but not lets just pretend it's just me and Paul there are many who practice similar methods will similar results.

@atoll 4. The fact that you 'dont supply scientific data' isn't a problem -

Not for you but for many who question our methods, we don't sell snake oil, we just do what we have been doing over such long periods of time so I figure there must be something in what we do that prevents diseases others suffer with.

everyone can learn from even observation/anecdote.

anecdote = "noun

1. a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
   synonyms: story, tale, narrative, sketch; More
   • an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay."
   • Nothing hearsay nor unreal about what we do and the results we achieve and others as I have mentioned above.

1. • . I do find it a problem when there is science that is available that suggests that the reasoning you are using is 'not correct - or not completely correct', you pretend that it is meaningless. That suggests that it is you who has the 'closed mind' as compared to the others... (JMHO)

   • 
     
   • Oh dear you see this is the real problem the science must be correct right, couldn't possibly be not quite even incorrect or the fact there are other reasons and methods. The "sciences" of which you speak are not by people who have even thought about what we do many only know one way. You forget (or perhaps don't know) I have been keeping marines for 36 years(I know not very long compared to Paul) but only in the last 25/26 years have I been practising what I do. Prior to that, I had sick fish, many even died from their illnesses, now they don't. During both periods I didn't QT. So, for 10 years I struggled with the likes of ich, not anymore and I kind of like it that way. Back in the day some people did QT and their fish still got sick.

 

[Paul B]

I’m in Baldwin. I came and got the worms from you.

Oh yeah, I didn't recognize your name. How are they doing?

Mn, we don't recommend our methods because most people think we just want to throw fish in a tank, feed good food and everything will be fine. That is not it at all ,just like quarantining is not that simple. I don't like it when people blame me because their tank crashed and they said they didn't quarantine because of what I post so now they learned their lesson.

True - but you both become quite defensive when people ask for the logic behind your methods.

I mentioned the logic many times in this and other threads along with links to researchers. Whats not to know. Fish exposed to parasites and fed the correct food stay immune as they were in the sea. It is very simple and that is almost all there is to it.
Fish kept away from parasites lose their immunity. It is very simple to my simple mind.

I do find it a problem when there is science that is available that suggests that the reasoning you are using is 'not correct - or not completely correct', you pretend that it is meaningless. That suggests that it is you who has the 'closed mind' as compared to the others... (JMHO)

Do I have to link it again? I did it 3 or 4 times in this thread. I don't know what else to do. You don't like my explanation and here is (again) a scientific explanation. I could link more but I probably already did.

(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.

Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.

He also states that a loss of gut bacteria correlates with many diseases and could impede longer space travel. If we lose our gut bacteria, our immune system goes dormant.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

All is well just trying to immune [emoji1531]

 

[Gareth elliott]

However the case of reef immunity will turn out. my goldfish are still not immune to birds [emoji23].

Time for a net again.

 

[Paul B]

Yeah, that is a tough one.

 

[MnFish1]

@atoll the issue is that you wrote a lot of general things people have said to you over the years in response to a post that I wrote. I didn't say all of those things. When you write in general about opinions 'others have expressed' in response to a post of mine, I called you on it. No offense meant.

 

[MnFish1]

Oh yeah, I didn't recognize your name. How are they doing?

Mn, we don't recommend our methods because most people think we just want to throw fish in a tank, feed good food and everything will be fine. That is not it at all ,just like quarantining is not that simple. I don't like it when people blame me because their tank crashed and they said they didn't quarantine because of what I post so now they learned their lesson.

I mentioned the logic many times in this and other threads along with links to researchers. Whats not to know. Fish exposed to parasites and fed the correct food stay immune as they were in the sea. It is very simple and that is almost all there is to it.
Fish kept away from parasites lose their immunity. It is very simple to my simple mind.

Do I have to link it again? I did it 3 or 4 times in this thread. I don't know what else to do. You don't like my explanation and here is (again) a scientific explanation. I could link more but I probably already did. (ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated. Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes. He also states that a loss of gut bacteria correlates with many diseases and could impede longer space travel. If we lose our gut bacteria, our immune system goes dormant.

I have no problem with that article. (which actually says what ive been telling you for 6 months - that 'non-parasitic fish (those not yet exposed - ie young fish with poorly developed immune systems) usually die but the ones that survive are often resistant to subsequent challenge.

I have problems with these comments that you made to defend your methods.:

1. Ich can survive forever in a tank because it can feed on slime (with no fishes present) - this is a comment you made - stating that the 'leaving a tank fallow is a myth'
2. If the mother is immune, the larvae are immune - thats simply not true. This is also a comment you made. There is some general immunity passed - but it is lost as the larvae grow. (just like in human infants) who obtain some immunoglobulins through breast milk.
3. If you keep adding more bacteria and parasites to your tank that is beneficial: There is nothing in the articles you site - nor does it make sense that adding random bacteria etc to a tank containing inhabitants from thousands of miles away is doing anything 'beneficial'
4. The Fish immune system is in the kidney, its completely different than ours. Actually, there are numerous sources of immune tissue in fish just as there are in humans. The mechanisms are generally the same. Our skin has barriers, our lymphocytes make specific immunoglobulins, and we have cellular immunity that is specific just like fish have.
5. Qurantining a tank will doom a fish forever - short lives, no spawning, etc. If fed well, a quarantined fish will regain its commensal bacteria and there is no evidence that their lifespan is shortened as compared to your methods.
6. As to the space travel issue - there is nothing that I could see in the article you cited above concerning that. There is no reason people 'lose' their gut bacteria unless they are treated with antibiotics. A fish tank, though, after quarantine is not a 'sterile' environment - like your space-ship analogy. It is full of bacteria. Take patients who have bone marrow transplants. they have all of their immune system purposefully destroyed, they are kept in sterile rooms, and as 'infection free as possible. Yet they survive - , their immune system comes back - and so does the natural bacteria in their skin, guts, etc.