It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Paul B]

And here we have the real story. You don’t just dump sick fish into the miracle aquarium and they somehow miraculously survive. I have asked multiple times what is the protocol for new fish. Correct me if I’m wrong but in this thread it’s always I dump them in. Now we hear about copper and quinacrine for a day ‘or so ‘. And some water transfer method. No offense. The story seems to be changing.

Yes, you are wrong. As I already mentioned, You have to start quoting me correctly.
I many times get very sick fish that probably will not live the night. They may even be laying on the bottom. There would be no sense for me to add"that" fish to my tank just to fish it's dead body out the next day. I mentioned this a few pages back using a copperband butterfly. If a fish has spots but is eating and seemingly living I will add that right to my tank as I have no quarantine tank. But "very" sick fish I can "sometimes" cure and then add it or give it away. That copperband I did add to my tank after a few days after I got it relatavely cured. My larger copperband didn't get along with it so I gave it away completely cured.
Every fish I ever bought or collected in the sea I added to my tank with no quarantine or anything else unless it was in the process of receiving last rites. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp. I have been adding fish like this and either publishing it in a magazine of on these forums since they invented forums. I have also had this argument dozens of times because the people who can't do it because their fish are not immune can't or won't believe it. I can't believe people quarantine for 72 days then allow their fish to get sick so they can fill the disease forum where most of those sick fish end up dead. It just isn't right for the fish. One of the fish that I added in 1991 is still there happily spawning. I added, many times ich infected fish I added and posted about. When I buy new fish I many times show it in the bag, then ten minutes later in my tank.
You can make up all sorts of excuses, but even though I have been proving this for decades, I don't have to.
The original people who argued with me years ago are all out of the hobby. I wonder why.

 

[Gareth elliott]

The original people who argued with me years ago are all out of the hobby. I wonder why.

You killed them with ich didnt you? [emoji23]

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Well at the end of it all we all do quarantine our sick fish[emoji848]

Man Said this is over. I think you guys where on the way to find a cure.

 

[Paul B]

You killed them with ich didnt you? [emoji23]

Why! Did they find any?

 

[MnFish1]

Yes, you are wrong. As I already mentioned, You have to start quoting me correctly.
I many times get very sick fish that probably will not live the night. They may even be laying on the bottom. There would be no sense for me to add"that" fish to my tank just to fish it's dead body out the next day. I mentioned this a few pages back using a copperband butterfly. If a fish has spots but is eating and seemingly living I will add that right to my tank as I have no quarantine tank. But "very" sick fish I can "sometimes" cure and then add it or give it away. That copperband I did add to my tank after a few days after I got it relatavely cured. My larger copperband didn't get along with it so I gave it away completely cured.
Every fish I ever bought or collected in the sea I added to my tank with no quarantine or anything else unless it was in the process of receiving last rites. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp. I have been adding fish like this and either publishing it in a magazine of on these forums since they invented forums. I have also had this argument dozens of times because the people who can't do it because their fish are not immune can't or won't believe it. I can't believe people quarantine for 72 days then allow their fish to get sick so they can fill the disease forum where most of those sick fish end up dead. It just isn't right for the fish. One of the fish that I added in 1991 is still there happily spawning. I added, many times ich infected fish I added and posted about. When I buy new fish I many times show it in the bag, then ten minutes later in my tank.
You can make up all sorts of excuses, but even though I have been proving this for decades, I don't have to.
The original people who argued with me years ago are all out of the hobby. I wonder why.

3/4 of what you wrote above has nothing to do with what I said in the quote above it.

You said "Yes it is. I have been using that for years especial when I get a fish, usually for free covered in parasites. Then I can add copper and quinicrine hydrocloride and cure the guy in a day or so."

You did not say 'I use that method when the fish is Nearly dead and lying on the bottom that might not live the night. So its not me that 'mis-quoting'.

I haven't made up any 'excuses' so accusing me of it is silly. I have said (10x) and will say it again. Obviously you have a successful tank. My argument is the rationale you use to explain 'why'. I provide reasons why something you say might not be quite right and you change the subject. For example - I post a scientific article and you 'poo poo' scientific articles as meaningless. Then you post one that purports (but does not) to agree with you and thats 'ok'. Lets keep it real at least.

And PS - The human skin is not 'impermeable'. Many drugs are delivered through the human skin - and are absorbed quite well.

 

[Paul B]

You did not say 'I use that method when the fish is Nearly dead and lying on the bottom that might not live the night. So its not me that 'mis-quoting'.

OK I did not say that exactly there, but I have said it numerous times on my tank thread and in my book. Isaid it so many times I forgot where I said it so you are correct. (this once )

The human skin is not 'impermeable'. Many drugs are delivered through the human skin - and are absorbed quite well.

Yes certain drugs can get through it, but the outer layer is dead and waterproof. We have no antibodies or anything to combat parasites on our outer skin. If we get a small cut we can get an infection. If a fish gets a small cut it's living slime covers it with antibodies. We get a scab eventually. We also have no scales.
I also supplied scientific articles. The way I explain my success is the way I believe it happens, You just don't believe my explanation or maybe being I have no degrees I can't explain myself correctly so we will have to agree to disagree as to why my tank seems successful and in my and Atolls eyes immune.
I know if I put an ich infected fish in my tank or the ocean, it will live with no problems. If you do that to a quarantined tank that has not seen a parasite in some time (we don't know that time frame) the fish will die.

I think we should get some infected fish and put some in my tank and some in a quarantined tank then try to explain why my fish just sit there and smile while the rest are dead. I don't know a better way to explain it.

From Encyclopedia Britannica.
Quote:
The skin of a fish must serve many functions. It aids in maintaining the osmotic balance, provides physical protection for the body, is the site of coloration, contains sensory receptors, and, in some fishes, functions in respiration. Mucous glands, which aid in maintaining the water balance and offer protection from bacteria, are extremely numerous in fish skin, especially in cyclostomes and teleosts. Since mucous glands are present in the modern lampreys, it is reasonable to assume that they were present in primitive fishes, such as the ancient Silurian and Devonian agnathans. Protection from abrasion and predation is another function of the fish skin, and dermal (skin) bone arose early in fish evolution in response to this need. It is thought that bone first evolved in skin and only later invaded the cartilaginous areas of the fish’s body, to provide additional support and protection.

Skin has several other functions in fishes. It is well supplied with nerve endings and presumably receives tactile, thermal, and pain stimuli. Skin is also well supplied with blood vessels. Some fishes breathe in part through the skin, by the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide between the surrounding water and numerous small blood vessels near the skin surface.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Only slightly on topic, but human skin does provide some disease defenses apart from its covering effect. Throughout the layers of skin, even the top dead layer, there are colonies of microorganisms that eat pathogenic organisms. These form beginning with birth and just everyday living.

Examples where quarantine are the last hope for survival of a species.
1). Tasmanian devils
Devil facial tumor disease is the only form of directly contagious cancer discovered thus far. This disease has caused the near extinction of this unique animal in almost all of its previous habitat. Decades of looking for a immune specimen have thus far been in vane. With the closest being delayed inoculation. As of Right now the only hope for the eventual survival of this species is to quarantine a uninfected population and wait the eradication of the disease in the wild for eventual repopulation.

2.) Chytridiomycosis and some amphibian species. While as a whole amphibians are not all effected some species show a 100% mortality to this fungus. The panama golden toad is now extinct in the wild being entirely wiped out by this disease. The only surviving individuals are those in a captive breeding program. Admittedly this is a long shot. We currently do not know the reservoir for Chytridiomycosis or why some species are less affected, cane toads or american bull frog invasive range continues to increase while other species decline.

My point being these are diseases unknown in the historical record. World wide trade, our ever expanding travel rates, and general human environmental effect has introduced these. When we purchase livestock they are constantly being introduced through these same processes throughout the catch -> tank process. Where fish (a) in the wild would never see fish (b) but now do. I am less worried about the fish diseases we can cure today, than the fish disease that has a 100% mortality rate tomorrow.

 

[Paul B]

I just had a hand operation so typing is slow, and will be impossable when the nerve block wears off because i will be spending all my time screaming.
So far i have not kept any Tasmanian devils or Panama Golden toads but i did read all about that in National Geographic.
The diseases on fish that we buy came originally from the sea as all fish in the sea harbor those things, and more. When we catch them and put them in little boxes their immune system fails to work and the fish have not been fed. If you put those same fish back into the sea, and nothing eats them, their immune system will again function and they will be fine. The will just hate us more.

Some tanks like mine and Atolls and a few more are kept very natural and the fishes immune system seems to function right away. There is a reason I never have to worry if my fish such as copperband butterflies, moorish Idols and others eat as soon as we put them in. They have no stress as our tanks are much better than dealers tanks or plastic bags. I never had to go on one of those threads that say something like : I got a copperband and fed it everything including T Bone steak, worms, Big Macs, flakes, pellets and LRS foods and all it does is stare at it. A week later it is sick and people are saying to use Prizapro, copper, fresh water dip, formulin, antibiotics and a few days later the fish croaks and they blame it on all sorts of things including a particular political party or aliens. It was the stress that killed the fish (just like Beauty killed the beast) (King Kong) because if the fish was eating in the sea and it isn't a religious thing, the fish should eat in a tank. I can't remember a fish not eating in my tank. It's stress.

We get stressed if our nose ring falls out or if our tongue piercing gets a piece of broccoli stuck in it, but fish get stressed out if something is bullying them, wants to catch them and stuff them in a can and label it Dolphin Safe,
Feeds them flakes and pellets or puts them in a tank filled with PVC fittings and little else. They also get stressed if there are no natural pathogens living with them and their immune system fails to work which is a huge part of a fishes physiology. With no immunity maybe they get a headache, I don't know for sure but they know something is wrong. They don't look natural, may not eat or spawn and won't join clubs.
Just my opinion of course. But if you have trouble getting new fish to eat or if you ever posted on a disease forum, or if your fish are not dying of old age, you are doing something wrong. Sorry, but it is your fault, not the fish, the parasite, the wholesaler or the losing couple on Dancing with the Stars. By the way, if you watch that. Maybe you should get out and make some friends.

 

[Josip]

I have to join this. I have just recently fought off itch without quarantine. I have had introduced new fish a month and few days ago into the DT and fish was fine for few days. Then i have noticed it got picked on by damses really badly for few days until it found its spot in tank. But it was at that point i have noticed a spot or two. To make it short i have trippled the food with heavy garlic dosage and live shell and muscles added 4-6 times a day. Fish went berserk over food and after couple of weeks white dots were gone. Its been 3 weeks to day that no spots on any of the fish are to be seen. Maybe luck maybe something else but its aliving proof that itch might be overcome without QT

 

[ZhiYung]

What a great thread this is. Living in Vietnam with all the people- I would say 99%- don’t quarantine their fishes when introduce them to their DT ( they just replace died ones with newly backup bought ) , and 2 weeks ago, I was thinking I’m the special one to QT my new batch of 6 lyretail anthias in my 15 gallon QT tank until 5 of them didnt make it. I think I will give the last remaining one and the following new batch of 5 which i just ordered a chance to follow what OP and Paul B are doing.
I also have a CBB which is thriving in my DT with a daily clams meal in the morning and in the evening. So why not give immune system a try then ?

 

[Cabinetman]

It’ll all go good till velvet or flukes get in your tank imo

 

[atoll]

It’ll all go good till velvet or flukes get in your tank imo

But that's the whole point thesevl parasites and diseases are there anyway. This is about immunity to them. Fish being able to fend them off and not contracting them or at least in a life threatening way. Ask yourself why do Paul's mine and other who never quarantined a fish in many years not have issues with diseases other have?

 

[Paul B]

It’ll all go good till velvet or flukes get in your tank imo

How long should I wait for those flukes and velvet? It's been a while now.

 

[atoll]

How long should I wait for those flukes and velvet? It's been a while now.

Obviously not long enough or your not doing something right [emoji6]

 

[Cabinetman]

I think it’s totally reckless for you to suggest it’s ok to just dump fish in and rely on immunity Paul. I’ve been at this game long enough to know that if you introduce velvet you’re in **** but anyway. Keep tickling the ears of the ones that wanna hear that they can be lazy. Myself I am very picky about what I add. I’ve gone through having a beautiful tank full of healthy fish and added one with velvet and it wasn’t pretty.

 

[Cabinetman]

But that's the whole point thesevl parasites and diseases are there anyway. This is about immunity to them. Fish being able to fend them off and not contracting them or at least in a life threatening way. Ask yourself why do Paul's mine and other who never quarantined a fish in many years not have issues with diseases other have?

Yes they are in the ocean but have you ever snorkelled on a reef. The amount of room the fish have is immense compared to even the largest home aquarium. Yes fish are exposed but to diluted numbers. In our tanks when reproduction of these diseases happened the numbers per gallon will be astronomical compared to an actual reef. Here’s my opinion. Yes there are certain fish... definitely not tangs, that can withstand the conditions of an outbreak in our tanks but a lot more will succumb to it very fast. What you guys are implying is dangerous stuff which is going to cost lots of fish their lives and cause a lot of stress and heartache to aquarist.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I think it’s totally reckless for you to suggest it’s ok to just dump fish in and rely on immunity Paul. I’ve been at this game long enough to know that if you introduce velvet you’re in **** but anyway. Keep tickling the ears of the ones that wanna hear that they can be lazy. Myself I am very picky about what I add. I’ve gone through having a beautiful tank full of healthy fish and added one with velvet and it wasn’t pretty.

Read the thread... my fish have had velvet... one came down with symptoms (heniochus) and recovered fully. No other fish showed any symptoms at all. No treatment whatsoever, just the good diet I laid out near the beginning of this thread.

Velvet is not to be feared more than any other disease. Fish can be immune to it.

Flukes admittedly are a slightly different issue, given they are more than a cilliate organism... but the damage they cause and their ability to multiply I'm sure is massively reduced by ensuring your fish have a robust immune systems and high levels of DHA in their skin... all this comes through diet and exposure to pathogens.

 

[Gweeds1980]

And to add... there are 6 tangs. Six. But obviously they are all dead...

 

[atoll]

Yes they are in the ocean but have you ever snorkelled on a reef. The amount of room the fish have is immense compared to even the largest home aquarium. Yes fish are exposed but to diluted numbers. In our tanks when reproduction of these diseases happened the numbers per gallon will be astronomical compared to an actual reef. Here’s my opinion. Yes there are certain fish... definitely not tangs, that can withstand the conditions of an outbreak in our tanks but a lot more will succumb to it very fast. What you guys are implying is dangerous stuff which is going to cost lots of fish their lives and cause a lot of stress and heartache to aquarist.

We are going around in circles. If you care to read the whole thread and others by Paul, myself and Lasse you won't come up with an explanation for our disease issue free aquariums other than what we suggest. We arent talking a few months not even a few years but many many years since we have been doing what we do with not just what some would consider success but remarkable sustainable success over 25 years and around 11 reef aquariums in my case and over 46 years with the same one in Paul's. I forget how long with Lasse but a similar number of year. OK so you have no explanation for our success that's fine but I can assure none of us are playing Russian roulette with our animals.

 

[Dogtown]