It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[MnFish1]

Then you are misreading or misunderstanding Paul's posts. I understand them perfectly well and have tried to explain them. As for Zoos It was a general observstion not directly aimed at you and typing on the phone makes it difficult to isolate sentences. Zoos have major failures they just tend to keep them quiet and many go through a lot of fish. However i will repeat they seem to have one way the quarantine way without exploring different avenues. They are often set in their ways and the humble hobbyest can't teach them any different.

I may be misunderstanding them - but I quoted them word for word. I think its important for everyone to understand what Paul means when he says 'Fish that were quarantined will not be in great health and will probably die'. What 'quarantine' is he talking about - and what is the justification for this statement. Same with this one: '"Quarantine causes Immunity to be gone". What does he mean by 'Immunity' and what would cause it to be 'gone'. And no matter how you read these 2 sentences - they are contradictory:

The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune.
I recently added parasite infected shrimpfish and one died so I left it in there. It is posted. I also added a parasite infected copperband where all the others in it's tank died in the store.

 

[Paul B]

I do not believe that there is any evidence that adding bacteria to the tank in the form of mud, etc decreases the likelihood of CI or velvet.

It does not. I do that to help the bacteria with water parameters. If it helps their immune system, that is a benefit.

2. Feeding high quality food is important.
3. Choosing healthy livestock is important.
4. Good water quality and stable parameters are important.

High quality food with living bacteria if you want immune fish. Fish not fed live bacteria or parasites will shortly lose their immunity to them as I have posted scientific studies. Not having an influx to living bacteria is also something that is stopping humans from taking long space flights. (I posted scientific studies on that also)

It is not necessary to choose healthy livestock, but of course it would help. I many times put infected fish in my tank because first of all, I want the parasites in there and second, I often get those fish for free. The more parasites and the more diverse they are, the more immune my fish will become. I just 5 minutes ago came back from boating and collected a gallon of mud, snails, rotting seaweed and amphipods and dumped it in my reef.

For a few years my nitrates were 160, not very good but my corals were thriving, my paired fish were all spawning and there was no disease. I would rather have qood quality water, but sometimes I get busy with other things and I rarely change water.

I do not believe that treating with copper 'kills or destroys' the immune system.

I never said that and don't know.

I believe there are lots of people out there who have 'healthy successful tanks' after quarantining.

Maybe, I don't know. But a successful tank is one where the fish die from nothing but old age and any paired fish will spawn constantly. To test that a tank has to be running for 20 or so years. Even hermit crabs live 12 years as I just lost a pair of them that age.
You can't tell if a five or ten year old tank is completely successful unless you can tell if the creatures are living to their full potential.

If a clownfish dies at 15 years old, that is like a human living to 40. I don't consider that successful as humans can live to 80 or more years and clownfish live into their 30s.

Also not all quarantine methods involve harsh chemicals. I recently added a lubbock’s fairy wrasse and a CB shrimp to my livestock.

That's true. But if the fish in quarantine is kept away from live bacteria and parasites, it "can" ruin it's immune system. The time span for that to happen varies with the species.

 

[WVNed]

LOL

Vendetta

Pseudoscience VS experience.

all polite like.

 

[Dogtown]

Gweeds/Atol/Paul B: Complete theory/recipe for an immune reef

- Filtration method... Paul’s Ozone generator or atoll’s Oxidator.

1. Atoll: "I do believe my Oxydators play a part." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-54#post-4907825
2. Paul B: "I have been using ozone 24/7 in my glass reef for about 35 or 40 years and I would not stop." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ozone-planning-and-questions.380127/#post-4640249

- Fish health...

1. Paul B: "The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907935

- Minimize stress to inhabitants...

1. Paul B: "keep it healthy and a stress free environment is very important" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-13#post-4000987
2. atoll: "add to the above the environment you created and comparable species." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4908260

- Feeding regimen.

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Fresh or freshly frozen WHOLE seafood" and "Fresh or freshly frozen seaweed (from the sea, not the store)" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672
2. Clams and other live foods of all types found in nature...

- Live bacteria..

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Bacterial biodiversity - as much as possible" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672
2. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Parasites" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672

- QT observation. None...

- Prophylactic medication prior to introduction. None...

- This is a holistic approach. You can't just do some of the above and expect good results.


Feedback from other R2R members:
Kmsutows: UV when used correctly can be efficient enough to reduce parasite numbers to be tolerable (hence why large fisheries and some stores/aquariums use them) as well as diatom filtering is prevent to reduce numbers of parasites.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4908242

MnFish1: Main point: I think the main reason that people with so-called 'Immune tanks' succeed is an external method of parasite number reduction whether its UV/Ozone/Oxydators or ultrafiltration.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907952


If any changes are requested, let me know.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dogtown]

Paul, Your comments contradict each other.

On one post you recently said "The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907935

Today you say "It is not necessary to choose healthy livestock, but of course it would help" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-56#post-4908892

Which is it? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

[Gareth elliott]

If any changes are requested, let me know.

[/QUOTE]

My belief is after reading everything is: CUCUMBERS KILL PARASITES.

 

[Paul B]

Paul Firstly, you say "Quarantine causes Immunity to be gone" Define what YOU mean by 'quarantine' (3 days observation, 14 days copper, etc?). Define what you mean by 'Immunity'. In any case, immunity is not 'gone'. A tank raised clownfish has never been exposed to CI - it never had immunity to CI. Every fish has its own innate immune system (skin, mucus) which isn't affected by not being exposed to parasites. So - again - how would tank-raised clownfish (not exposed to CI or velvet) who have a perfectly normal immune system (they aren't living in a sterile world, there are lots of bacteria in every aquarium) do if placed in your tank?

I define quarantine by keeping a fish for any length of time and not feeding it something with live bacteria and parasites in it just like they eat in the sea. It could be a week or a year. If you quarantine and don't allow the fish any live bacteria, then start feeding it live bacteria, it's immune system will function fine. It is not known how long a fish can be kept off it's natural diet to have that happen. But we sometimes have to get a tetna shot. Then in a couple of years, we need another one, why is that?

A tank raised clownfish, or any fish from a whaleshark to a gobi will not be immune from parasites or almost any communicable disease unless it is fed and lives with pathogens. I didn't make that up. The fry gets it's immunity from it's Mother, but that only lasts a short while. The fry eats a smaller item and keeps eating live food it's entire life constantly ingesting living bacteria and parasites. That's where it gets its immunity.
The bacteria in every aquarium are not disease bacteria and won't help or hurt the immune system. A fish, or any animal needs to be constantly exposed to something to stay immune from it. Immunity uses a lot of energy and a fish, or us will lose it if it is not used.

I do not believe that there is any evidence that adding bacteria to the tank in the form of mud, etc decreases the likelihood of CI or velvet.

It does not. I do that to help the bacteria with water parameters. If it helps their immune system, that is a benefit.

2. Feeding high quality food is important.
3. Choosing healthy livestock is important.
4. Good water quality and stable parameters are important.

High quality food with living bacteria if you want immune fish. Fish not fed live bacteria or parasites will shortly lose their immunity to them as I have posted scientific studies. Not having an influx to living bacteria is also something that is stopping humans from taking long space flights. (I posted scientific studies on that also)

It is not necessary to choose healthy livestock, but of course it would help. I many times put infected fish in my tank because first of all, I want the parasites in there and second, I often get those fish for free. The more parasites and the more diverse they are, the more immune my fish will become. I just 5 minutes ago came back from boating and collected a gallon of mud, snails, rotting seaweed and amphipods and dumped it in my reef.

For a few years my nitrates were 160, not very good but my corals were thriving, my paired fish were all spawning and there was no disease. I would rather have qood quality water, but sometimes I get busy with other things and I rarely change water.

I do not believe that treating with copper 'kills or destroys' the immune system.

I never said that and don't know.

I believe there are lots of people out there who have 'healthy successful tanks' after quarantining.

Maybe, I don't know. But a successful tank is one where the fish die from nothing but old age and any paired fish will spawn constantly. To test that a tank has to be running for 20 or so years. Even hermit crabs live 12 years as I just lost a pair of them that age.
You can't tell if a five or ten year old tank is completely successful unless you can tell if the creatures are living to their full potential.

If a clownfish dies at 15 years old, that is like a human living to 40. I don't consider that successful as humans can live to 80 or more years and clownfish live into their 30s.

Does anyone here have a tank full of quarantined fish where the fish have never been sick, the fish only die of old age and all the paired fish are spawning? I don't know but I would like to.

Also not all quarantine methods involve harsh chemicals. I recently added a lubbock’s fairy wrasse and a CB shrimp to my livestock.

That's true. But if the fish in quarantine is kept away from live bacteria and parasites, it "can" ruin it's immune system. The time span for that to happen varies with the species.



(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, (Like Quarantined fish, by me) but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote

Coincidently in this months "Popular Science" (August 2015) there is an article about this very topic. The author states that the most germ free environment today is on the International Space Station. Everything is sterilized including the air. All the surfaces are coated with bacteria limiting coatings, even the water is treated with iodine and biocidal nano silver so the only bacteria present are the ones coming from the astronauts themselves. They can't open a window or send out for Pizza so there is no fresh influx of microbes to balance the ecosystem. Sounds like quarantining doesn't it? He also states that a loss of gut bacteria correlates with many diseases and could impede longer space travel. If we lose our gut bacteria, our immune system goes dormant.

You can read the entire thread here. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/
​

Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote

Secondly, you say : The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune. Fish that were quarantined will not be in great health and will probably die. But every zoo and aquarium in the country uses quarantine methods so do many aquarists and their fish don't 'die'. You repeatedly state that you take fish that are sick - and put them in your tank (so does Atoll) yet they survive - this is contradictory.

Fish in stores are never in perfect health. Fish that have been quarantined "may " not be in great health and will not be in great health if they have not been exposed to pathogens for a definite length of time depending on species. I do very often put sick fish in my tank and if you followed my posts for a number of years you would see that and pictures of them.
I am not sure if all aquariums quarantine but soon I will be working in the Atlantis Aquarium in Long Island so I will find out. I was just there and my boat is right behind the place. But the aquarium does feed live or freshly frozen food. No flakes and pellets.
Quarantine or no quarantine, it doesn't matter as long as the fish is fed living bacteria and parasites.

, I said that (In several posts) if the parasite numbers are reduced (by ozone, UV, etc) to the point of being non-infective it is possible for the numbers to decrease to the point that the strain dies off.

There is no ozone in my tank now and I will leave it off for as long as you feel is necessary to prove this point. It may not work anyway and I may not ever use it again. I just added a gallon of mud, I am not sure if there are parasites in there but much of the water is from my old operating system. The NSW here now is almost 70 degrees so I am sure the bacteria and parasites in the natural water here will live in my tank.
Try to add a gallon of mud from the sea to a quarantined tank where no live bacteria is fed.

BTW, adding 'parasite infected shrimp fish' contradicts what you said in the second line that 'fish need to be in perfect health and immune'.

That was a couple of years ago and none of my fish died yet.

You keep saying to just drop a fish into a tank infected with parasites. No one is saying that. The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune. Fish that were quarantined will not be in great health and will probably die.

I did say this. I didn't finish the statement. I should have added that all fish you get from an LFS will have immunity because they were in the sea a week or so before. Most fish in the sea are in perfect health. Their immunity is not functioning because the fish was probably not fed and are severly stressed. But if you drop a fish in an infected tank from a LFS and feed it live food, it should be fine. It may show some spots initially , but they should leave.
But if you take a fish from someones tank that was never fed food with live bacteria and parasites and drop it in an infected tank, it will die.

You don't have to believe me or Atoll. Just keep doing what you are doing. We will never have to worry about diseases, they are a non issue and always have been. There is nothing to prove but if you like, you can come to my house in Long Island with the sickest, most parasite laden fish or a fish with any diseases you can come up with or all the diseases and throw it in my tank. Can you make that statement.
I assume that would prove my point.

I was counteracting Pauls statement that 'most quarantined fish die'.

Say What!! I don't remember saying that. If I did, I was senile.

I mean even ebola is not 100% fatal. Some lucky people survive it. I

That is true, and the people that lived after being infected by one of the three forms of the Black Plague are now immune from Aids. I also didn't make that up but most Plague cases were not from the virus from rats, but a bacteria.

I am now going to feed my fish including the 27 year olds who have never been sick and never will

 

[Kmsutows]

PaulB, you keep pointing out your fish have no parasites but no ozone and.. did you say no diatom filter are running... I'm sure you're aware of the parasites life cycle and there wouldn't be any existing in your tank if you have "immune" fish. The ozone and diatom filters would have taken care of at least most of any present parasites therefore turning them off wouldn't make a difference. It may take longer for them given they built up resistance from exposure to some I'm sure but regardless- there likely are not any parasites in your tank until you introduce new fish that may bring them with them. Without ozone and diatom filters there ain't no way your tank would be as successful. I don't see how gut bacteria protect against ich... could you explain that one? Especially any bacterial fresh water worms or white worms provide. I'm sure it makes them a healthier fish sure but doesnt make them immune to ich.

 

[WVNed]

Burn the heretic

 

[Dogtown]

Burn the heretic

Heretic is defined as "a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted". You have just said you want to burn Paul B.

 

[Mark Gray]

Mark please search on here and even Google much of what you may find has been written by me. However, in a nutshell, I have been using Oxydators for around 26 years. Oxydator's are simple device's that use hydrogen peroxide in an acrylic beaker containing one or more catalyst. The minority of the peroxide is broken down into it's component parts reactive or supper O2 and water before leaving the Oxydator. This reacts with pollutants in the aquarium water oxidizing them rendering them harmless. Redox is increased, the water becomes sparkling clear and saturated in oxygen which brings great benefits to the fish and many corals. There is a lot more to it of course much of which has been written and discussed on here and many other forums.

I did thanks I have one on backorder

 

[WVNed]

I was just joining in the thread.

Heretic - anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.

I swear I use Instant Ocean.

 

[Mark Gray]

Your "secret" is the ozone and diatom filters in combination with healthy fish. After your move your fish did not get sick because they are healthy and there is no ick or velvet present. Go ahead and stick a known velvet covered fish into your tank and see what happens without ozone and diatom filter. I'd suggest not for your fishes sake. Unless you think gut bacteria from freshwater worms and brine are the trick

I just did stick a fish that for sure had ick and most likely velvet in last week but 3 in the sick one was on his side when he arrived, he died but I left him in the tank to help stock up on nuttrant and give.my worms something good to eat

 

[DSC reef]

I was just joining in the thread.

Heretic - anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.

I swear I use Instant Ocean.

Members are debating which if you have read the entire thread actually has great info from both sides. No need to insert words like that and disrupt the thread.

 

[WVNed]

I love debating

"I’ll say it again, “figures will not lie,” but “liars will figure”. It is our duty, as fellow aquarists, to prevent the liar from figuring; in other words, to prevent him from perverting the truth, in the interest of some theory he wishes to establish."

"You're talking out of both sides of your mouth."

This is not debating.

If you find some value in that I am in the wrong place.

 

[DSC reef]

I love debating

"I’ll say it again, “figures will not lie,” but “liars will figure”. It is our duty, as fellow aquarists, to prevent the liar from figuring; in other words, to prevent him from perverting the truth, in the interest of some theory he wishes to establish."

"You're talking out of both sides of your mouth."

This is not debating.

If you find some value in that I am in the wrong place.

And who is the liar??

 

[MnFish1]

That's true. But if the fish in quarantine is kept away from live bacteria and parasites, it "can" ruin it's immune system. The time span for that to happen varies with the species.

How? All of your post about the international space station has nothing to do with an aquarium. If you somehow think that fish in an aquarium are not constantly exposed to bacteria you're just plain wrong. Additionally - even every quarantine tank has 'bacteria'. Its not sterile. You must really be against Bill Gates attempt to eliminate malaria and The WHO's attempts to eliminate other parasites. Maybe we should be breeding mosquitos in Africa instead of giving people mosquito nets.

High quality food with living bacteria if you want immune fish.

There is no basis in fact for this. Immune to WHAT? So - you're saying feeding fish bacteria somehow promotes their innate immune system? - so does feeding any good quality food. It does nothing specifically for the immune system./

It is not necessary to choose healthy livestock, but of course it would help.

Which contradicts what you said earlier.

Maybe, I don't know. But a successful tank is one where the fish die from nothing but old age and any paired fish will spawn constantly. To test that a tank has to be running for 20 or so years.

Are the people that are breeding angelfish and other hard to spawn species using your method - or had a tank for 20+ years. The only reason you define a 'successful tank' as > 20 years is that most people don't have one. It has nothing to do with failure or quarantine - it has to do with the fact that few people have anything for 20 years. you're the exception with your tank - it doesn't suggest (or detract) that your method is any better or worse than a person that has had a tank for 3 years or 1 year or 10 years. You're just defining success here because you've had a tank that long.

That is true, and the people that lived after being infected by one of the three forms of the Black Plague are now immune from Aids. I also didn't make that up but most Plague cases were not from the virus from rats, but a bacteria.

Another mistake. the original plague cases were thought to be from pasturella pestis (bubonic plague) (a bacteria) - there is now some debate as to whether it was actually a virus(a hemorrhagic fever) rather than a bacteria. None of this has anything to do with what we're talking about here - just another obfuscation.

You don't have to believe me or Atoll. Just keep doing what you are doing. We will never have to worry about diseases, they are a non issue and always have been. There is nothing to prove but if you like, you can come to my house in Long Island with the sickest, most parasite laden fish or a fish with any diseases you can come up with or all the diseases and throw it in my tank. Can you make that statement.
I assume that would prove my point.

I dont know if you haven't read what I wrote - or what you're talking about. I never said I didn't believe you. I said your logic and rationale are flawed - and your understanding of immunology is incorrect - even based on the articles you quote. In fact what I said was 'Im trying to figure out what the most important part of your method is because unlike you - I dont have access to fresh sea food or sea mud, etc etc.. I never asked you to prove anything - except your mis-stated (no offense) scienctific rationale for your method. Paul - You have already said that a fish needs to be 'Immune' to survive in your tank (your words, not mine) - If I threw 10 fish not exposed to Cryptocaryon in your tank what would happen to them (I know - you already said they would die). Well in several years when perhaps most of the fish sold may be tank-raised - and thus not exposed to velvet or CI, what should people do? Give up? Since they have no immune system??? All of your rationale is (sadly) patently absurd - albeit you and atoll have nice tanks.

 

[WVNed]

Please

 

[MnFish1]

I love debating

"I’ll say it again, “figures will not lie,” but “liars will figure”. It is our duty, as fellow aquarists, to prevent the liar from figuring; in other words, to prevent him from perverting the truth, in the interest of some theory he wishes to establish."

"You're talking out of both sides of your mouth."

This is not debating.

If you find some value in that I am in the wrong place.

I was just joining in the thread.

Heretic - anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.

I swear I use Instant Ocean.

Please

WVNed - you might be in the wrong place if you keep making posts that are confusing because you don't make it clear which post you're quoting and for what reason. Thats that the little 'quote' or 'reply' button is for around here. Because no offense after reading the above - I have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[ZhiYung]

@atoll , will the oxgen created by the oxydator react with carbon source in carbon dosing and increase CO2 in my tank ? Because base on this note, it should be. Will this be a cons over long time ?