It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[atoll]

That is the answer, but don't tell anyone.







Just call me Paul. Paul B is my stage name.
Let me first say that this is a friendly debate and I hold no ill feelings to anyone here that either agrees or disagrees with my theories. I like all you guys and girls (If any of you are girls) I have been debating this for decades and have thick skin. I also have nothing to prove as people have been visiting my tank since the 70s and they know how it runs. It is not a secret and I have documented everything in pictures articles and a book. By the name of my book is "The Avent Garde Marine Aquarist" and the definition of Avent-Garde is (From Webster)

Quote: The avant-garde are people or works that are experimental, radical, or unorthodox with respect to art, culture, or society. It may be characterized by nontraditional, aesthetic innovation and initial unacceptability, and it may offer a critique of the relationship between producer and consumer. The avant-garde pushes the boundaries of what is accepted as the norm or the status quo, primarily in the cultural realm. The avant-garde is considered by some to be a hallmark of modernism,

I named it that for a reason. I do not think inside the box. I have developed my theories through experimentation and mostly failure way before computers, cell phones or Google. I learned what I know from keeping different specimins and spending almost 300 hours underwater studying them. I have spawned almost every normal fish that can be spawned and I didn't get any previous knowledge from rumors or the internet which, to me was invented last Tuesday. I have been keeping fish every day of my life for about 63 years.
If my fish are not living disease free for their entire natural lifespan which varies from bangai cardinals (about 4 years) to watchman gobies) about 13 years) to bluestripe pipefish (about 5 years to clownfish (about 30 years) Then I am lying. If I am lying, there is no point in anyone reading my theories. I have old, healthy fish which I have posted about for many years. Much longer than anyone here who quarantines or not.

I can continue to answer all these "accusations"or questions as best I can. But it is silly as I have done it so many times and my tank is still running very healthy. If anyone here lives on Long Island and Has a sick fish, bring it to my house and throw it in my tank with my blessings and see if anything happens.



Trust me, I know very well the ich life cycle. It is silly as ich should not affect your fish. No one seems to understand how this works even though I have posted it dozens of times and linked scientific studies. Having immune fish does not mean not having parasites. Just the opposite. The parasites in my and Atolls tank are happily living and reproducing in our tanks. What you can't grasp is that the parasites eat fish slime. They attach to the fish and get a meal of slime or if they are lucky some blood. The fishes immune system which is very strong in their slime, which is a living part of the fish, sends antiparasitic cells to the site of the parasite and the parasite is "chased" away (for lack of a better word.) The parasites do not necessarily die just like if someone sprayed you with tear gas, you won't die, but you will be chased away.
If the parasite got enough to eat it will drop off and spawn.
The babies will go and look for a fish to bother and the same thing will happen. It doesn't matter the number of the parasites, the fishes immune system will chase them off. I wrote this:
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

The Ozone in my tank will probably kill some parasites that go through it but my Ozonizer goes into my skimmer which takes water from the surface and most of the parasites will be at the bottom. But be as it may, the diatom filter which I use maybe once a year for an hour or so doesn't do anything to parasites except maybe remove a few of them. But I "don't want to remove parasites" If I did, I would not have an immune tank. This is a simple concept and it works the same in fish as it does in us.
As I said, if my fish are not immune, then I am a liar and no one should read this. But if you want to keep your fish disease free forever with no quarantine or medications, maybe you can learn something. Of course you can always go to the disease forum and check out how those people keep their fish.

( I know you said you believe me, it is the method you doubt)



MnFish, my Friend. This is totally wrong. There are of course bacteria everywhere. But most of them do not cause disease. Some help us digest food and without them we would die. It is the disease causing bacteria the fish (and us) need to be immune.
I found that article about the Space Station while researching fish diseases. It was only there to show (in humans) that without an influx of fresh bacteria "Humans" lose their immune system. I didn't make that up, I linked the article, I think it was Popular Science.

You can get immunity to Mosquitoes in Africa or other places just as the people I was with in the Jungle of Viet Nam were almost immune to malaria.
The natives there were bitten constantly by mosquitoes and I never saw any of them with malaria. If they were not immune, there would be no people there as they had no medications and lived their entire life in a jungle. I had to take an anti malaria pill every day as it was a court martial offense to get malaria and you were pretty certain to get it if you did not take the pill. I even took it for months after I got home.
The ones in Africa and Viet Nam who are dying from malaria are in horrible conditions, mal nourished, infected from wounds or very old or young.
The people living in good conditions in the cities are mostly healthy. Malaria is a parasite somewhat like ich. We also can use the same medications to cure it like Quinicrine Hydrocloride. (if you mix that with copper it will clear a fish of ich in a day)

Giving people mosquito nets will have the same effect of quarantine. They are fine until that one mosquito bites them.
Why doesn't anyone get the fact that fish in the sea eat parasites with almost every meal. What happens to those parasites?



Good quality food with no pathogens will do little to effect a fishes immunity just like if you take that boy in the bubble and feed him the best food there is. He still won't be able to leave the bubble because he has no immunity.



I just took a 6 hour course on the Plague and it was originally thought to be a virus from rats. Just recently they found out that descendants that survived the Plague are immune to Aids which is a bacteria. The doctors at the time didn't describe the symptoms very well and almost anyone that died of almost anything at the time were thought to have the Plague. But that is neither here nor there. They are dead either way. (The Plague was also three different diseases)



It has nothing to do with NSW or access to the sea. I use live blackworms, live whiteworms or clams that I buy live and freeze. I don't have to feed these foods every day. A couple of times a week seems to be efficient.
In the early days I used to put garden soil from my yard in my tank. That was Robert Straughn's Idea (The Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping)
"The Salt Water Aquarium in The Home".
We aquarists are under the (wrong) impression that bacteria from the environment or foods are bad. Most commercially available foods state right on the package "Safe from Harmful Bacteria and Parasites".

Anyway, that is my "theory" on how I keep fish immune. You may have another theory on how my and Atolls fish are immune. I do not feel it is Ozone or a diatom filter. I do not know any other way to describe it but as I said, I have been doing this a long time and that is what I came up with. If it is wrong, then no one should do what I or Atoll does.

But Paul cabinetman has the answers. He guarantees anybody including you and me will have tank wipeouts due to not QTing sooner or later. We can assume therefore we have just not waited long enough that's all. Also you/we have an agenda. I have asked him twice now but it appears he is reluctant to expose our agendas which I conclude is very good of him not to expose those agendas so we can continue to conspire against whoever or whatever. Personally I make no money out of this hobby, no books no snake oil potions in fact I have nothing to sell what so ever. So I will ask again cabinetmaker report these agendas of which you speak so we can expose the truth of our writings and just what is behind them. Thanks.

 

[Brew12]

There is no 'carrier state' for small pox - you either die or you live. In Europe thousands of people died from smallpox - perhaps in the same percentage that died in the Native American population. But once you survive it you dont get it again. The way smallpox was transmitted in the US is that some people were incubating smallpox when they arrived - or were recovering.

Actually, by the time smallpox was brought to the US, it was rarely fatal in Europe. Survival rates were much higher.

Yet - that is true of any infectious disease. If expose 10,000 people to ebola, x percent will survive.

It isn't quite that binary. There are a lot of factors that come into play. Especially the fact that immunity can be passed on genetically, which is why Europeans were functionally immune to smallpox.

There was even a study done on fish that they initially thought showed that immunity could be shared through mucus transfer. They were researching if they could develop an immunity in a small batch of fish transfer it to an entire school. They attributed what appeared to be their early success to the immune fish acting as decoys and attracting enough parasites to protect the naïve fish long enough for them to develop an immunity. They had no success when ramping the system up as the parasites overwhelmed all of the fish.

On a more general note, I think it is important to point out that very few hobbyists actually practice what I would consider proper QT protocols. Polling on R2R shows it at under 10%. If there wasn't something to maintaining fish immunity, and it was just a matter of time or luck, 90% of hobbyists should be having regular tank wipes. While we know plenty of them are, it isn't at that level.

 

[MnFish1]

But Paul cabinetman has the answers. He guarantees anybody including you and me will have tank wipeouts due to not QTing sooner or later. We can assume therefore we have just not waited long enough that's all. Also you/we have an agenda. I have asked him twice now but it appears he is reluctant to expose our agendas which I conclude is very good of him not to expose those agendas so we can continue to conspire against whoever or whatever. Personally I make no money out of this hobby, no books no snake oil potions in fact I have nothing to sell what so ever. So I will ask again cabinetmaker report these agendas of which you speak so we can expose the truth of our writings and just what is behind them. Thanks.

If you read your posts honestly - from the perspective of a person who is objective - it sees to me as well that you (and Paul and others) have an agenda (based on Paul always grouping your name with his - I dont know if you agree with him or not). An agenda isn't bad - why do you take it as such a criticism?

The agenda is that quarantining damages a fishes immune system and thus results in fish death (these are Pauls words).
The agenda is that your (Pauls) fish 'never get sick' and if everyone used your method there would be no need for the disease forum (those are Pauls words - he included you and Gweeds as well)
This suggests that your 'methods' are 'better' than people that are quarantining. I have no clue whether they are or aren't. I would suggest that this is the underlying agenda he was taking about.

I dont think he suggested you were conspiring against anyone. I dont think he suggested you were making money off of this. I think you're just trying to make another false argument.

But - I think this all boils down to this. You are successful - you dont know why. Paul is successful - he doesn't know why. What is so wrong about people trying to tease out of your guys WHY YOU THINK YOURE SUCCESSFUL (in keeping your fish so healthy - including 'new arrivals' not exposed to your methods). Im not talking about having a nice tank lots of people (contrary to Pauls assertion) have nice tanks without using these methods - Im talking only about parasites killing fish. We're trying to learn from you not criticize you

 

[MnFish1]

Actually, by the time smallpox was brought to the US, it was rarely fatal in Europe. Survival rates were much higher. It isn't quite that binary. There are a lot of factors that come into play. Especially the fact that immunity can be passed on genetically, which is why Europeans were functionally immune to smallpox. There was even a study done on fish that they initially thought showed that immunity could be shared through mucus transfer. They were researching if they could develop an immunity in a small batch of fish transfer it to an entire school. They attributed what appeared to be their early success to the immune fish acting as decoys and attracting enough parasites to protect the naïve fish long enough for them to develop an immunity. They had no success when ramping the system up as the parasites overwhelmed all of the fish. On a more general note, I think it is important to point out that very few hobbyists actually practice what I would consider proper QT protocols. Polling on R2R shows it at under 10%. If there wasn't something to maintaining fish immunity, and it was just a matter of time or luck, 90% of hobbyists should be having regular tank wipes. While we know plenty of them are, it isn't at that level.

Agreed. Because the people in Europe that survived smallpox had immunity. But - The illness was not spread to the Americas from the survivors - just like there is a life-cycle to CI - there is a life cycle to smallpox - and there is no 'carrier state'.

Agree on the third point as well - polling suggests that few people do QT properly. I also do not. I dont use Paul or Atolls methods either. Should I post what I do and suggest that there is a cause/effect relationship between my particular tank (which Ive maintained in various form for 30 years - except for moves - when Ive started over) and everyone else here? I also had one 'wipeout' in a tank where every once and a while a fish or 2 got 1-2 spots - that went away quickly. But I added a fish from an online supplier - and 1 week later all the fish were dead. Hasn't happened again. My take home - I dont buy fish from the internet anymore - because I dont quarantine. I buy from a local Fish store that as excellent stock that can be observed (without copper) in a reef environment for some time before purchase.

 

[atoll]

If you read your posts honestly - from the perspective of a person who is objective - it sees to me as well that you (and Paul and others) have an agenda (based on Paul always grouping your name with his - I dont know if you agree with him or not). An agenda isn't bad - why do you take it as such a criticism?

The agenda is that quarantining damages a fishes immune system and thus results in fish death (these are Pauls words).
The agenda is that your (Pauls) fish 'never get sick' and if everyone used your method there would be no need for the disease forum (those are Pauls words - he included you and Gweeds as well)
This suggests that your 'methods' are 'better' than people that are quarantining. I have no clue whether they are or aren't. I would suggest that this is the underlying agenda he was taking about.

I dont think he suggested you were conspiring against anyone. I dont think he suggested you were making money off of this. I think you're just trying to make another false argument.

But - I think this all boils down to this. You are successful - you dont know why. Paul is successful - he doesn't know why. What is so wrong about people trying to tease out of your guys WHY YOU THINK YOURE SUCCESSFUL (in keeping your fish so healthy - including 'new arrivals' not exposed to your methods). Im not talking about having a nice tank lots of people (contrary to Pauls assertion) have nice tanks without using these methods - Im talking only about parasites killing fish. We're trying to learn from you not criticize you

Firstly I am sure cabinetmaker is able to speak for himself as to what he means by our so called agenda. Secondly suggesting we have some sort of agenda suggests we are in some way contriving outside this forum and collaborating in some way which is simply not so. There may be differences between UK and US interpretations on just what is meant by an agenda.
Thirdly, we have put forward our reasoning as to why we believe our methods work, Paul in particular has given what he believes are the main reasons. Now you may not agree with them, fine but the fact is reasons, the ways, how's and what fors have all been stated as best we can.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@MnFish1, Cabinetman,

Lets just accept something up front in this discussion. Your paradigm does not accept that what is being presented to you is possible or true so you cast about for answers that will satisfy your paradigm. I would venture to say there are many ideas in the world that would clash with your paradigms.

PaulB has given some examples of human disease response and immunity that don't make sense to you. I can add another and that is the treatment for C.Diff. A fecal transplant from a healthy human host is necessary to innoculate the sick individual with the natural gut bacterial populations necessary to bring the sick individual back to health and function. This is often the result of previous treatment with broad spectrum antibiotics which leaves the individual succeptable to C. Diff. infections. Paul and others have attached research to support their conclusions. I have seen no response by either of you to the research. The conclusion is that a possible link to bacterial populations and immunity exist with fish as well. PaulB actually listed some articles to support his claim. Healthy individuals are much more able to fight off disease than individuals who are stressed, malnurished, or immune compromised. These are accepted facts in medicine as well as animal populations. Innoculation is an accepted practice to maintain immunity and is repeatable across populations.

I have spent several hours without success trying to find a link to a video presentation here on R2R by a Doctoral Canidate in Marine Biology who presented the amout of bacteria and viruses per cubic liter in the ocean and illustrated the amazing filtration provided by corals, sponge, seafans, and related organisms by measuring the ejection population from the effluent of an atoll where the water travels in one direction. The ejection densities were almost non existant to the intake populations. So these natural populations were in fact using virusus and bacteria as a food source as it passed throught the atoll. This would demonstrate one possible answer to mature tanks and their ability to process potential free swimming pathogen populations. The results of a Google search show that there about 10 million viruses per drop of ocean water and 1 million bacteria per ml of ocean water. That is alot of potential pathogens...but not all are pathogenic. And some become pathogenic only when the host is in a weakened condition.

I made a living for over 20 years in the aquarium industry helping my customers find ways to keep their fish healthy so the hobbiest could enjoy them in their home. The vast majority of store owners love the animals they sell and care for. That is what attracted them to the business in the first place. I worked with individuals who had business degrees, fishery's degrees, DVM's, chemical engineering degrees and others who cared for their livestock like it was their business depended on it...and it did. They were all better off applying the science of what works versus what is said to work. Observation is a major part of their success and mine. Science is founded on observation and finding repeatable results. They applied the science and benefited from the results.

The world of science does not depend on what makes sense to you. If it did you could explain to me how gravity works and it would make sense to you. Go ahead and tell me definitively know how gravity works. You will be up for a Nobel Prize because you could then unlock the secret of how to make it work for you. That still does not diminish the fact that gravity exists and works and follows some predictible laws. The laws of biological response have predictible results as well that is why people give birth to people and cats to cats.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Rewriting

 

[MnFish1]

Firstly I am sure cabinetmaker is able to speak for himself as to what he means by our so called agenda. Secondly suggesting we have some sort of agenda suggests we are in some way contriving outside this forum and collaborating in some way which is simply not so. There may be differences between UK and US interpretations on just what is meant by an agenda.
Thirdly, we have put forward our reasoning as to why we believe our methods work, Paul in particular has given what he believes are the main reasons. Now you may not agree with them, fine but the fact is reasons, the ways, how's and what fors have all been stated as best we can.

I wasn't speaking for cabinet man - though I agree with him - I was responding for myself. (another false argument). First of all (as I tried to make clear by my post) - its mostly Paul that is grouping you with his ideas - its not you. I certainly dont think you are contriving or working outside the group. I do think that you just merely 'agree' with what Paul says - without considering the arguments against what he says. This is an agenda (to me). It means you ignore facts contrary to your 'beliefs'. Is the definition that different between the US and the UK

Ignoring questions to your reasoning - either by not answering them - or by saying - well no-one is forcing you do to it - so go away (paraphrased) is not describing your reasoning. There are questions to your reasoning - which you refuse to answer directly.

 

[MnFish1]

Except rabies, if no vaccine is received by the time symptoms appear it is 100% fatal.
(Discounting the Milwaukee Protocol that has not shown itself to be reliably reproducible or those .006% that survive with severe lifelong effects)
Ok forgot why i was posting for a moment, back on track....

But my point on the pathogenic microbes in water. A system where everything was placed through QT. When an injury occurs(aggression powerhead, etc) and is followed by an infection when no recent additions. The microbes were either present the whole time.
The shear number of tanks that experience dinoflagellate outbreaks.

I am not going to look up a study but would hypothesize that sanitation efforts, (water treatment, copper etc) remove a large percentage of the microbes present but survive in proportion of initial make up of total biomass.
Why there are a few cases world wide each year of Naegleria fowleri in treated water.

I apologize - I dont follow completely what your saying and how it relates to the quote of mine that you posted - it probably relates to my intellect (joke - self deprecating humor used by others here to bolster their arguments). My point was there is an LD 50 for every infection - Ie at a given concentration of pathogen - 50 percent of the exposed organisms die. When someone says that an infection that is usually quite severe in 'non-immune fish' somehow doesn't cause problems in their tank - I want to know why. (when they say they have no deaths from infection).

There is no question that all of the fish in a tank can be 'Immune' (survival of the fittest) to CI or velvet. But when a stress happens they get reinfected and the closed area causes mortality. This is because - either the quarantine wasn't done correctly - or the fish were immune - and not affected by the CI left in the tank - until a stressor occurred. There is no magic here.

I do not think you can quarantine 'against' dinoflagellates.

As to Nageleria - it usually relates to temperature increasing in the intake water of the treatment plant - or its from another cause altogether. Either way - again I dont understand.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I apologize - I dont follow completely what your saying and how it relates to the quote of mine that you posted - it probably relates to my intellect (joke - self deprecating humor used by others here to bolster their arguments). My point was there is an LD 50 for every infection - Ie at a given concentration of pathogen - 50 percent of the exposed organisms die. When someone says that an infection that is usually quite severe in 'non-immune fish' somehow doesn't cause problems in their tank - I want to know why. (when they say they have no deaths from infection).

There is no question that all of the fish in a tank can be 'Immune' (survival of the fittest) to CI or velvet. But when a stress happens they get reinfected and the closed area causes mortality. This is because - either the quarantine wasn't done correctly - or the fish were immune - and not affected by the CI left in the tank - until a stressor occurred. There is no magic here.

I do not think you can quarantine 'against' dinoflagellates.

As to Nageleria - it usually relates to temperature increasing in the intake water of the treatment plant - or its from another cause altogether. Either way - again I dont understand.

I should have separated better.
The rest of my post wasnt regarding your post, i was simply attempting some very dry humor to start.

 

[Mark Gray]

I have also sort of done things this way for many years I think about 40 now, Immunity comes from building a resistance to a pathogen, this is why vaccinations work. I will go back to my wife She was born in Thailand, the people over their have a very high tolerance for food poisoning I remember the first time I ate at her aunts house I was sick for 4 days very sick but no one else had any problems. My brother is a micro biologist he did a study in Mexico the people in central Mexico seem to carry Salmonella with no ill effects. 2 weeks ago I bought 3 fish online one a Orange back fairy wrasse came in in bad shape had white spots on him, the other 2 looked good I worked on getting the sick one in my DT ASAP well he died that night but I left him in the tank for everything to feed on him. Everyone else are doing great, I know in my old tank I also have Ick for sure I introduced it on a tang that I still have. This new tank I am running is 100% different than anything I have run before in the aspect I am running a fuge on this one and it's all Apex controlled but I think the fish will do ok this way only time will tell

 

[MnFish1]

PaulB has given some examples of human disease response and immunity that don't make sense to you. I can add another and that is the treatment for C.Diff. A fecal transplant from a healthy human host is necessary to innoculate the sick individual with the natural gut bacterial populations necessary to bring the sick individual back to health and function. This is often the result of previous treatment with broad sprectrum antibiotics which leaves the individual succeptable to C. Diff. infections. Paul and others with research attached to some of the responses is suggesting that this is a similar case with fish immunity. Healthy individuals are much more able to fight off disease than individuals who are stressed, malnurished, or immune compromised.

They not only dont make sense to me - they dont make sense in general. We're not talking about someone with C diff (which as you say is usually caused by a person receiving antibiotics and wiping out their own GI biome). And BTW - fecal transplants are not used widely for C diff - they are used quite rarely for particularly severe cases. As to the rest of this paragraph - youre repeating what I've said many times - a healthy fish will do better than an unhealthy fish when exposed to a parasite.

I have spent several hours without success trying to find a link to a video presentation here on R2R by a Doctoral Canidate in Marine Biology who presented the amout of bacteria and viruses per cubic liter in the ocean and illustrated the amazing filtration provided by corals, sponge, seafans, and related organisms by measuring the ejection population from the effluent of an atoll where the water travels in one direction. The ejection densities were almost non existant to the intake populations. So these natural populations were in fact using virusus and bacteria as a food source as it passed throught the atoll. This would demonstrate one possible answer to mature tanks and their ability to process potential free swimming pathogen populations. The results of a Google search show that there about 10 million viruses per drop of ocean water and 1 million bacteria per ml of ocean water. That is alot of potential pathogens...but not all are pathogenic. And some become pathogenic only when the host is in a weakened condition.

I know that video - we're not talking about mature tanks vs immature tanks. we're talking about how a non-immune fish could be placed in a tank with CI and survive as comparing to quarantining that fish and placing it into a tank without CI. There are also bacteria in our tanks - and depending on filtration, etc - could be higher or lower than ocean levels.

Lets just accept something up front in this discussion. Your paradigm does not accept that what is being presented to you is possible or true so you cast about for answers that will satisfy your paradigm. I would venture to say there are many ideas in the world that would clash with your paradigms.

Ok - so - based on my posts - what is my paradigm? I would venture to say - that you're incorrect - because you have an idea what my paradigm is - but you haven't read what ive written (granted its a lot lol). but there is one post that clearly reviewed my paradigm - I would appreciate it and read it objectively - and then tell me where I'm 'clashing' with Paul or Atoll?

From Yesterday at 930 AM:

These are MY opinions. They are not a criticism of anyone's "method"

1. Main point: I think the main reason that people with so-called 'Immune tanks' succeed is an external method of parasite number reduction whether its UV/Ozone/Oxydators or ultrafiltration.
2. Feeding high quality food is important.
3. Choosing healthy livestock is important.
4. Good water quality and stable parameters are important.
5. 2, 3, and 4 are important because it causes less stress to the fish and high stress decreases immunity
6. Its well known that fish become immune to CI. Once they are immune - even if that immunity decreases - they are less likely to have as severe a 'reinfection'.

I do not believe that there is any evidence that adding bacteria to the tank in the form of mud, etc decreases the likelihood of CI or velvet.
I do not believe that feeding 'live foods' decreases the likelihood of CI or velvet as compared to high quality dry, frozen or other foods.
I do not believe that treating with copper 'kills or destroys' the immune system.
I believe there are lots of people out there who have 'healthy successful tanks' after quarantining.
I do not know of a major zoo or aquarium that suggests that quarantining is not important, instead these institutions suggest that its 'mandatory'.

 

[Cabinetman]

In my opinion the agenda is that you guys..Paul in particular has become a very big figure on the forums and you seam to have glued yourself too him and beyond all logic and reason you stick to the idea that keeping harmful pathogens out of our tanks is somehow harmful. You suggest that it’s good to add these diseases which is just crazy. No matter what you will never admit you could be wrong. You somehow contribute me suggesting to keep these harmful parasites out as keeping a sterile tank which I have never suggested.

 

[WVNed]

Sorry but I have never quarantined and I have kept fish for 3 decades. I had to treat freshwater ick 30 years ago. I have never had any of the marine bad diseases.
I started salt in 2007

Paul has nothing to do with my bad fish keeping habits. I had them long before I came here.

 

[atoll]

In my opinion the agenda is that you guys..Paul in particular has become a very big figure on the forums and you seam to have glued yourself too him and beyond all logic and reason you stick to the idea that keeping harmful pathogens out of our tanks is somehow harmful. You suggest that it’s good to add these diseases which is just crazy. No matter what you will never admit you could be wrong. You somehow contribute me suggesting to keep these harmful parasites out as keeping a sterile tank which I have never suggested.

Fact is Paul and myself practice similar if not identical ways to keeping our eeef healthy so its quite natural when somebody whi does similar and gets similar results you will align wuth him. Note I say i practice similar to him not identical. EG I don't use ozone but Oxydator's I don't feed black worms nor do I add mud from the sea. You may consider that big difference, I don't. However, our results are very similar. I have friends here in the UK who practice similar reefkeeping to me again achieving similar results. These are results achieved over many years.

 

[MnFish1]

Fact is Paul and myself practice similar if not identical ways to keeping our eeef healthy so its quite natural when somebody whi does similar and gets similar results you will align wuth him. Note I say i practice similar to him not identical. EG I don't use ozone but Oxydator's I don't feed black worms nor do I add mud from the sea. You may consider that big difference, I don't. However, our results are very similar. I have friends here in the UK who practice similar reefkeeping to me again achieving similar results. These are results achieved over many years.

However, in that case, hopefully you will admit that adding mud and feeding (at least blackworms) is not part of your success. Which is the part at least I am trying to 'tease out'.

 

[Mark Gray]

Sorry but I have never quarantined and I have kept fish for 3 decades. I had to treat freshwater ick 30 years ago. I have never had any of the marine bad diseases.
I started salt in 2007

Paul has nothing to do with my bad fish keeping habits. I had them long before I came here.

Ha Ha that is so true I have kept fish for so much longer than being on this site.

However, in that case, hopefully you will admit that adding mud and feeding (at least blackworms) is not part of your success. Which is the part at least I am trying to 'tease out'.

Not sure about that I add mud and I feed black worms too but like I said above I have done this many years

 

[atoll]

However, in that case, hopefully you will admit that adding mud and feeding (at least blackworms) is not part of your success. Which is the part at least I am trying to 'tease out'.

I thought I had already with my last post. I do however, buy live mussels and clam hatch brine and feed those. All.of which carry live bacteria and who knows what. I rarely feed dry foods. I also add fish oils to my foods which I believe Paul aslo does and has he reports.

 

[MnFish1]

I thought I had already with my last post. I do however, buy live mussels and clam hatch brine and feed those. All.of which carry live bacteria and who knows what. I rarely feed dry foods. I also add fish oils to my foods which I believe Paul aslo does and has he reports.

Thanks - This makes sense - I think its important to realize that frozen mussels/clam, etc as well as dry foods also contain bacteria? For example - lets take the tetanus vaccine as an example - you get a tetanus shot - you become immune to tetanus, yet the tetanus vaccine is not 'live bacteria'. They are dead. The immune system responds to any foreign substance - whether live or dead.

 

[MnFish1]

Not sure about that I add mud and I feed black worms too but like I said above I have done this many years

Just to be clear I didn't mean that feeding black worms and adding mud didn't help - I just said it didn't contribute to @atoll 's success