It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Gweeds1980]

If you read your posts honestly - from the perspective of a person who is objective - it sees to me as well that you (and Paul and others) have an agenda (based on Paul always grouping your name with his - I dont know if you agree with him or not). An agenda isn't bad - why do you take it as such a criticism?

The agenda is that quarantining damages a fishes immune system and thus results in fish death (these are Pauls words).
The agenda is that your (Pauls) fish 'never get sick' and if everyone used your method there would be no need for the disease forum (those are Pauls words - he included you and Gweeds as well)
This suggests that your 'methods' are 'better' than people that are quarantining. I have no clue whether they are or aren't. I would suggest that this is the underlying agenda he was taking about.

I dont think he suggested you were conspiring against anyone. I dont think he suggested you were making money off of this. I think you're just trying to make another false argument.

But - I think this all boils down to this. You are successful - you dont know why. Paul is successful - he doesn't know why. What is so wrong about people trying to tease out of your guys WHY YOU THINK YOURE SUCCESSFUL (in keeping your fish so healthy - including 'new arrivals' not exposed to your methods). Im not talking about having a nice tank lots of people (contrary to Pauls assertion) have nice tanks without using these methods - Im talking only about parasites killing fish. We're trying to learn from you not criticize you

Ok, so here goes... why I think MY way is successful:
1. High levels of DHA in the diet - this is a known potent antiparasitic and fish accumulate this in their subcutaneous fatty layer to resist parasitic infection.
2. High bacterial biodiversity - regardless of parasites, a high bacterial biodiversity means there is competition at a microscopic level. This means that potentially harmful bacteria are less likely to develop to a level that would cause infection.
3. Acclimate new 'non immune' fish to any parasites / diseases within your display tank - AFTER giving them the high DHA diet.
4. A natural tank (or as natural as it's possible to make an 8ft glass box!) This results in more available food (algae, pods etc) and a higher biodiversity, thus lower stress and more natural behaviour. Stress lowers the immune response.
5. UV - proper UV, not shoddy standard UV. Massively overrated for the size tank and massively underpowered by the pump (I have a unit good for a 15000 litre pond and it's fed by a 1500lph pump) this is important for reducing parasite numbers and thus gives a more natural parasite vs fish balance.
6. Feeding a diet which includes whole marine animals. This provides a balanced diet - more akin to a natural diet. There are likely substances that are beneficial that we don't even know about or can test for. Also, consuming parasites which may be present on those animals allows the consuming fishes immune system to be exposed to the chemical markers of that pathogen and thus allows the adaptive immune system to produce antigens specific to that pathogen. In the event of infection by that same pathogen, the immune response will be more robust.
7. Herd immunity... powerful in protecting non immune animals, in that the level of pathogens will be minimal.

Is that it? No idea... I may well be wrong in all the above. Who knows, I can't prove it either way. I do know all the above is based on science and everything I've stated has been demonstrated in peer reviewed papers.

Does quarantining compromise a fishes immune system? Certainly the act of quarantining does not. I am sure that using medications such as copper will lower the immune response... copper is a poison to most marine life, it's just the quantity that is sublethal that changes with species. I cannot prove that however, although I'm sure I read a paper somewhere that demonstrated it. What is certain is that removing a fish from exposure to a pathogen which it is immune to, will, over time, result in a loss of immunity to that pathogen. So it could be argued that if you buy a fish which is immune to ich and quarantine it and treat it with copper, then in about 6 months you will have compromised that fishes immune system. If it is kept in an ich free environment for a further 2 years and then reinfected, it will have lost immunity to ich and be infected.

I am a scientist... I can guarantee that I do not have a selective memory. I have not conveniently forgotten the fish that have died. Every addition to my tank was recorded. Species, date added, QT followed (if any), including number of days, observations etc. I only ran this 'method' for approx 12 months. I didn't lose a single fish DESPITE a velvet infection, ich infection and purposely introducing brook. Did I carry out an autopsy on any fish? No, because none died. Can I categorically say that I had velvet? No... but I can be as sure as a GP diagnosing a common cold... I have seen it many times in the past 26 years. Did I definitely introduce viable brook parasites? No, it was very Heath Robinson to say the least!

 

[Brew12]

However, in that case, hopefully you will admit that adding mud and feeding (at least blackworms) is not part of your success. Which is the part at least I am trying to 'tease out'.

The only benefit I could see to adding mud would be to hope to bring in new parasites.

As for feeding live blackworms and other fresh food, there is definite benefit to it. Probiotic bacteria must be live to work. Unless a food is frozen specifically to preserve bacteria, most of them die when frozen. Special processes must be used to ensure most survive. Most frozen food suppliers do not take these precautions. I use LRS in part because he does add probiotic bacteria and takes those precautions when freezing. He also has his food lab tested periodically to ensure his minimum standard for live bacteria is met.

 

[WVNed]

Can you explain to me why once you figure out what you are supposed to be doing with fish, Ick seems to go away? That was my experience 25 years ago with freshwater fish.

It was also common knowledge that a DE filter would stop an ick outbreak in a tank. I got my first Vortex diatom filter back then and it worked. Once I started keeping cichlids and cats I never seemed to get ick anymore. I eventually gave it to my father in law because ours both wore out and we made 1 good one from 2.

 

[MnFish1]

The idea that a sterile environment is a healthy one is passing due to research.

This applies to a great deal more than aquariums.

Researchers were surprised by the results. Children exposed to mouse and cat dander, as well as cockroach droppings, before they turned 1 year old actually experienced lower rates of allergies and wheezing by age 3 than kids who were not exposed. In fact, kids who were not exposed were three times more likely to have allergies and experience wheezing. Exposure to bacteria was also linked to lower rates of allergies. However, exposure after the first birthday did not have the same result.

...
And what we have learned, Dr. Gilbert said, is that early life exposure to microbes can shape not only the immune system, affecting a child’s likelihood of developing autoimmune conditions like eczema and asthma, but also the endocrine system, and even the child’s neurodevelopment.

These apply to children because that is what is being studied.

But what the general trend is finding is "Use it of lose it" applies strongly to the immune system.
Vaccination schedules has greatly changed since I was a child. I am not talking about flue with changing strains yearly. I am talking about tetanus and similar diseases.

Keeping you children too clean can make them sick. Perhaps that applies to your fish as well.

Who is saying that a sterile environment is a healthy one? I (defy - a strong word I know) you to quote a post that says thats a good idea. You're just playing along - not paying attention. You are quoting a lot of data above that no logical person would disagree with. No one here has said we should keep sterile aquaria - have they? youre creating a false argument as if others have said it.

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry but I have never quarantined and I have kept fish for 3 decades. I had to treat freshwater ick 30 years ago. I have never had any of the marine bad diseases.
I started salt in 2007

Paul has nothing to do with my bad fish keeping habits. I had them long before I came here.

So what? I dont mean that to be offensive. I haven't quarantined fish either. Its not about that - its about - the logic behind what he is saying.

 

[Gweeds1980]

So what? I dont mean that to be offensive. I haven't quarantined fish either. Its not about that - its about - the logic behind what he is saying.

See my last post...

 

[MnFish1]

The only benefit I could see to adding mud would be to hope to bring in new parasites.

As for feeding live blackworms and other fresh food, there is definite benefit to it. Probiotic bacteria must be live to work. Unless a food is frozen specifically to preserve bacteria, most of them die when frozen. Special processes must be used to ensure most survive. Most frozen food suppliers do not take these precautions. I use LRS in part because he does add probiotic bacteria and takes those precautions when freezing. He also has his food lab tested periodically to ensure his minimum standard for live bacteria is met.

Based on what - magic (the feeding live food part)? Do you think that LRS food has a magic way of freezing bacteria that freezing ground cod does not? (I know perhaps they are adding bacteria - but its not any more beneficial than feeding frozen cod). BTW I use LRS occasionally as well . Btw - you know I respect you @Brew12 - not trying to be insulting here whatsoever. It seems that anyone that attempts to counter an argument is a 'usual suspect' or a 'bad person'. I claim to be neither. Additionally - I comment @Paul B for realizing this - as compared to some others her who seem to want to attack people with different ideas than their own (not referring to my ideas - just in general)

 

[Gweeds1980]

Based on what - magic (the feeding live food part)? Do you think that LRS food has a magic way of freezing bacteria that freezing ground cod does not? (I know perhaps they are adding bacteria - but its not any more beneficial than feeding frozen cod). BTW I use LRS occasionally as well . Btw - you know I respect you @Brew12 - not trying to be insulting here whatsoever. It seems that anyone that attempts to counter an argument is a 'usual suspect' or a 'bad person'. I claim to be neither. Additionally - I comment @Paul B for realizing this - as compared to some others her who seem to want to attack people with different ideas than their own (not referring to my ideas - just in general)

Agreed! The word 'argument' is always taken in a negative context these days, as opposed to putting your points across in a respectful, concise and robust manner.

I would 'argue' that a number of people don't want to have an argument, they want a fight... which is an entirely different beast.

 

[MnFish1]

Ok, so here goes... why I think MY way is successful:
1. High levels of DHA in the diet - this is a known potent antiparasitic and fish accumulate this in their subcutaneous fatty layer to resist parasitic infection.
2. High bacterial biodiversity - regardless of parasites, a high bacterial biodiversity means there is competition at a microscopic level. This means that potentially harmful bacteria are less likely to develop to a level that would cause infection.
3. Acclimate new 'non immune' fish to any parasites / diseases within your display tank - AFTER giving them the high DHA diet.
4. A natural tank (or as natural as it's possible to make an 8ft glass box!) This results in more available food (algae, pods etc) and a higher biodiversity, thus lower stress and more natural behaviour. Stress lowers the immune response.
5. UV - proper UV, not shoddy standard UV. Massively overrated for the size tank and massively underpowered by the pump (I have a unit good for a 15000 litre pond and it's fed by a 1500lph pump) this is important for reducing parasite numbers and thus gives a more natural parasite vs fish balance.
6. Feeding a diet which includes whole marine animals. This provides a balanced diet - more akin to a natural diet. There are likely substances that are beneficial that we don't even know about or can test for. Also, consuming parasites which may be present on those animals allows the consuming fishes immune system to be exposed to the chemical markers of that pathogen and thus allows the adaptive immune system to produce antigens specific to that pathogen. In the event of infection by that same pathogen, the immune response will be more robust.
7. Herd immunity... powerful in protecting non immune animals, in that the level of pathogens will be minimal.

Is that it? No idea... I may well be wrong in all the above. Who knows, I can't prove it either way. I do know all the above is based on science and everything I've stated has been demonstrated in peer reviewed papers.

Does quarantining compromise a fishes immune system? Certainly the act of quarantining does not. I am sure that using medications such as copper will lower the immune response... copper is a poison to most marine life, it's just the quantity that is sublethal that changes with species. I cannot prove that however, although I'm sure I read a paper somewhere that demonstrated it. What is certain is that removing a fish from exposure to a pathogen which it is immune to, will, over time, result in a loss of immunity to that pathogen. So it could be argued that if you buy a fish which is immune to ich and quarantine it and treat it with copper, then in about 6 months you will have compromised that fishes immune system. If it is kept in an ich free environment for a further 2 years and then reinfected, it will have lost immunity to ich and be infected.

I am a scientist... I can guarantee that I do not have a selective memory. I have not conveniently forgotten the fish that have died. Every addition to my tank was recorded. Species, date added, QT followed (if any), including number of days, observations etc. I only ran this 'method' for approx 12 months. I didn't lose a single fish DESPITE a velvet infection, ich infection and purposely introducing brook. Did I carry out an autopsy on any fish? No, because none died. Can I categorically say that I had velvet? No... but I can be as sure as a GP diagnosing a common cold... I have seen it many times in the past 26 years. Did I definitely introduce viable brook parasites? No, it was very Heath Robinson to say the least!

Thanks - Im a microbiologist and a scientist as well - so there's that.

I am not sure about # 1 (though I accept it) - I doubt #2 (as there is no way to document that your tank is any more or less biodiverse than average - there is plenty of scientific evidence that bacteria that are added to an established tank are out-competed by established bacteria - and thus contribute nothing. #3 - Possibly true - the healthiest fish will withstand any disease better than a weakened one (but again - there is still a mortality even among healthy 'fish' from a parasitic infection. Diet alone will not be 100% effective (as some here seem to suggest). #4. There is no such thing as a natural tank. Every tank is different depending on the location from which the fish/etc are obtained and the competition for survival that ends up resulting in the things that survive survive. #5 - right - this is my point. Without this you would fail. #6. There is lots of evidence from scientific papers that people that attempt to replicate natural diets of their aquarium inhabitants fail miserably - they may provide the proper diet for some - but the ones for which they are not providing the diet die - (may not be from parasites - but they die). #7 - agree - but this will not protect new fish.

Does quarantining compromise a fishes immune system? Certainly the act of quarantining does not. This is contrary to what Paul says (Perhaps not what Paul means)

I am sure that using medications such as copper will lower the immune response... copper is a poison to most marine life, it's just the quantity that is sublethal that changes with species. I think this is true - but not all quarantine methods use copper. This is part of the problem - Paul says 'Quarantine is bad'. Some methods may have negative effects - not all.

If it is kept in an ich free environment for a further 2 years and then reinfected, it will have lost immunity to ich and be infected. Only if it is reexposed to CI.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Thanks - Im a microbiologist and a scientist as well - so there's that.

I am not sure about # 1 (though I accept it) - I doubt #2 (as there is no way to document that your tank is any more or less biodiverse than average - there is plenty of scientific evidence that bacteria that are added to an established tank are out-competed by established bacteria - and thus contribute nothing. #3 - Possibly true - the healthiest fish will withstand any disease better than a weakened one (but again - there is still a mortality even among healthy 'fish' from a parasitic infection. Diet alone will not be 100% effective (as some here seem to suggest). #4. There is no such thing as a natural tank. Every tank is different depending on the location from which the fish/etc are obtained and the competition for survival that ends up resulting in the things that survive survive. #5 - right - this is my point. Without this you would fail. #6. There is lots of evidence from scientific papers that people that attempt to replicate natural diets of their aquarium inhabitants fail miserably - they may provide the proper diet for some - but the ones for which they are not providing the diet die - (may not be from parasites - but they die). #7 - agree - but this will not protect new fish.

Does quarantining compromise a fishes immune system? Certainly the act of quarantining does not. This is contrary to what Paul says (Perhaps not what Paul means)

I am sure that using medications such as copper will lower the immune response... copper is a poison to most marine life, it's just the quantity that is sublethal that changes with species. I think this is true - but not all quarantine methods use copper. This is part of the problem - Paul says 'Quarantine is bad'. Some methods may have negative effects - not all.

If it is kept in an ich free environment for a further 2 years and then reinfected, it will have lost immunity to ich and be infected. Only if it is reexposed to CI.

I'm not sure about a couple of your responses -
2. More strains of bacteria being added will result in greater bacterial biodiversity. I agree that over time, those bacteria more suited to life in the particular conditions present in your tank will survive beyond those that are not, but here I am talking about addition of bacteria on a fortnightly or monthly basis. Thus the effect over time is reduced by constant adding of novel strains. I cannot guarantee that each addition has novel strains and I cannot refute your argument that my tank is any more or less biodiverse than any other.
4. Agreed, hence my comment regarding the 8 foot glass box. However, given that my tank functioned perfectly normally, with no elevation (in fact a slight reduction) in undesirable parameters (Nitrate, phosphate etc) after removing ALL mechanical filtration, I would argue that it was as 'natural' as I could have made it.
5. I have never denied that UV (or similar) is a massive part of this 'method', but in isolation it won't reduce parasites to the point of removing them as there will always be a population on or in infected fish. However, used in a tank where the fish are immune, it can hugely reduce the risk of massive numbers of parasites from overwhelming the immune system.
6. Agreed. However, in feeding whole marine animals and actual seaweeds (which I did), I think anyone would struggle to find a more balanced or natural diet. From our own recent history, we know that if you take pure ingredients but process them too much, that results in a negative effect in the nutritional value of the food. As with my own diet, I try to have as little processing as possible, which can only be a good thing vs commercial foods.
7. Herd immunity will protect any non immune member of the 'herd'... ie if all animals in a group are immune to a disease, the prevalence of that disease will be so low as to offer protection to a non immune animal. This is regardless of whether the animal is a new introduction to that group or an established member.

Oh and in reference to 1... DHA is now being touted as the new antimalarial... too many strains of that parasite are now resistant to chloroquine phosphate... in which I find an interesting comparison in our treatment of CI, given the reliance on either a poison (copper) or CP. Personally, if I were having to treat CI, TTM would be the only method I would use now.

 

[MnFish1]

I'm not sure about a couple of your responses -
2. More strains of bacteria being added will result in greater bacterial biodiversity. I agree that over time, those bacteria more suited to life in the particular conditions present in your tank will survive beyond those that are not, but here I am talking about addition of bacteria on a fortnightly or monthly basis. Thus the effect over time is reduced by constant adding of novel strains. I cannot guarantee that each addition has novel strains and I cannot refute your argument that my tank is any more or less biodiverse than any other.
4. Agreed, hence my comment regarding the 8 foot glass box. However, given that my tank functioned perfectly normally, with no elevation (in fact a slight reduction) in undesirable parameters (Nitrate, phosphate etc) after removing ALL mechanical filtration, I would argue that it was as 'natural' as I could have made it.
5. I have never denied that UV (or similar) is a massive part of this 'method', but in isolation it won't reduce parasites to the point of removing them as there will always be a population on or in infected fish. However, used in a tank where the fish are immune, it can hugely reduce the risk of massive numbers of parasites from overwhelming the immune system.
6. Agreed. However, in feeding whole marine animals and actual seaweeds (which I did), I think anyone would struggle to find a more balanced or natural diet. From our own recent history, we know that if you take pure ingredients but process them too much, that results in a negative effect in the nutritional value of the food. As with my own diet, I try to have as little processing as possible, which can only be a good thing vs commercial foods.
7. Herd immunity will protect any non immune member of the 'herd'... ie if all animals in a group are immune to a disease, the prevalence of that disease will be so low as to offer protection to a non immune animal. This is regardless of whether the animal is a new introduction to that group or an established member.

Oh and in reference to 1... DHA is now being touted as the new antimalarial... too many strains of that parasite are now resistant to chloroquine phosphate... in which I find an interesting comparison in our treatment of CI, given the reliance on either a poison (copper) or CP. Personally, if I were having to treat CI, TTM would be the only method I would use now.

as to (2). there are lots of studies that suggest that merely adding bacteria to a reef tank will not result in greater bacterial diversity - instead -either the new bacteria will outcompete the old (meaning less bacterial diversity - or the same) or the new ones will die off.

as to (5) Paul B and Atoll have argued this is not important (or not as important)

as to (6) - review the literature. I googled it some weeks ago.

as to (7) - Yes - herd immunity will. However - there is plenty of (anecdotal evidence on this site) that adding one fish results in the death of the entire tank. Thus - there has to be some 'specific immunity - rather than innate immunity involved. BTW - herd immunity refers to for example influenza - where if no one around you gets influenza (because they are immunized) you are lesss likely to get it. This is different than. exposing a non-immune person to influenza on purpose.

With reference to DHA - it might be - lots of things are touted to but cures for lots of things.

Lastly - you shouldn't have to treat CI

 

[MnFish1]

Can you explain to me why once you figure out what you are supposed to be doing with fish, Ick seems to go away? That was my experience 25 years ago with freshwater fish.

It was also common knowledge that a DE filter would stop an ick outbreak in a tank. I got my first Vortex diatom filter back then and it worked. Once I started keeping cichlids and cats I never seemed to get ick anymore. I eventually gave it to my father in law because ours both wore out and we made 1 good one from 2.

Yes - you dont buy fish because they are cheap.
You know what to look for in the fish store - to prevent you from buying sick fish
You dont buy from unreliable sources.

 

[Brew12]

Do you think that LRS food has a magic way of freezing bacteria that freezing ground cod does not?

Im a microbiologist

How can a microbiologist think that freeze drying or the use of cryopreservation is "magic"?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369703X11002385

And yes, I am very sure that major fish processors do not use any advanced freezing techniques that I have discussed with Larry @LRS

 

[MnFish1]

How can a microbiologist think that freeze drying or the use of cryopreservation is "magic"?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369703X11002385

And yes, I am very sure that major fish processors do not use any advanced freezing techniques that I have discussed with Larry @LRS

You're misunderstanding what im saying. If you doubt that im a microbiologist - im happy to send you a picture of my diploma lol. What I was saying is that Some here are saying that they have to use live foods - or fresh cod, whatever, because there are bacteria therein. Im saying - BS - Firstly - most 'fresh fish' that fish would eat on the reef are actually 'sterile' inside (not the skin). Except the intestines. Im not talking about the methods whereby people preserve bacteria - im saying there is no benefit to cutting up freshly dead cod and feeding them as compared to feeding frozen cod.

Hope thats clear.

Its also clear that LRS (a food I use) adds bacteria to their foods - not a natural amount - or a natural bacteria - but a couple which have been found to be beneficial scientifically in fish farming. All good - no problem with it. Again - unless im not making myself clear - not sure that your issue is with what I posted.

 

[Dogtown]

Hello folks, here is the tally so far. New or updated entries are shown in bold. ​

Gweeds1980, Atol's, and Paul B's recipe for an immune reef in their own words

- Filtration method... Gweeds's Proper UV, Paul’s Ozone Generator, atoll’s Oxidator.

1. Gweeds1980 (the OP): "UV - proper UV, not shoddy standard UV. Massively overrated for the size tank and massively underpowered by the pump (I have a unit good for a 15000 litre pond and it's fed by a 1500lph pump) this is important for reducing parasite numbers and thus gives a more natural parasite vs fish balance." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-59#post-4912818
   
2. Atoll: "I do believe my Oxydators play a part." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-54#post-4907825
3. Paul B: "I have been using ozone 24/7 in my glass reef for about 35 or 40 years and I would not stop." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ozone-planning-and-questions.380127/#post-4640249

- Fish health prior to introduction into DT...

1. Paul B: "The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907935. Paul B seems to contradict himself here repeatedly from post to post. Waiting for confirmation from Paul B on why and his final word.
2. Atol: need a citation.
3. Gweeds1980: need a citation.

- Minimize stress to inhabitants...

1. Paul B: "keep it healthy and a stress free environment is very important" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-13#post-4000987
2. atoll: "add to the above the environment you created and comparable species." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4908260
3. Gweeds1980: A natural tank (or as natural as it's possible to make an 8ft glass box!) This results in more available food (algae, pods etc) and a higher biodiversity, thus lower stress and more natural behaviour. Stress lowers the immune response. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-59#post-4912818

- Feeding regimen.

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Fresh or freshly frozen WHOLE seafood" and "Fresh or freshly frozen seaweed (from the sea, not the store)" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672
2. Gweeds1980: High levels of DHA in the diet - this is a known potent anti-parasitic and fish accumulate this in their subcutaneous fatty layer to resist parasitic infection. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-59#post-4912818
3. Gweeds1980: Feeding a diet which includes whole marine animals. This provides a balanced diet - more akin to a natural diet. There are likely substances that are beneficial that we don't even know about or can test for. Also, consuming parasites which may be present on those animals allows the consuming fishes immune system to be exposed to the chemical markers of that pathogen and thus allows the adaptive immune system to produce antigens specific to that pathogen. In the event of infection by that same pathogen, the immune response will be more robust. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-59#post-4912818

- Live bacteria..

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Bacterial biodiversity - as much as possible" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672
2. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Parasites" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672
3. Gweeds1980 (OP): High bacterial biodiversity - regardless of parasites, a high bacterial biodiversity means there is competition at a microscopic level. This means that potentially harmful bacteria are less likely to develop to a level that would cause infection. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-59#post-4912818

- QT observation.

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): Yes
2. atoll: No
3. Paul B: No

- Prophylactic medication prior to introduction.

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): Yes
2. atoll: No
3. Paul B: No

- This is a holistic approach. You can't just do some of the above and expect good results.

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): Yes
2. atoll: Yes
3. Paul B: Yes

Feedback from other R2R members:
Kmsutows: UV when used correctly can be efficient enough to reduce parasite numbers to be tolerable (hence why large fisheries and some stores/aquariums use them) as well as diatom filtering is prevent to reduce numbers of parasites.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4908242

MnFish1: Main point: I think the main reason that people with so-called 'Immune tanks' succeed is an external method of parasite number reduction whether its UV/Ozone/Oxydators or ultrafiltration.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907952

 

[Brew12]

Do you think that LRS food has a magic way of freezing bacteria that freezing ground cod does not?

You're misunderstanding what im saying.

You seem to have been pretty clear about your post. I'm not sure what there was to misunderstand.

Again - unless im not making myself clear - not sure that your issue is with what I posted.

Are you now agreeing with Paul that feeding gut bacteria and/or probiotics is an important part of maintaining the immune system? And that feeding fresh/live food with the guts is part of that?

 

[Paul B]

The Plague (of which there were three types ) was actually spread by gerbels in China. But what do I know!

That one non-immune fish allows the parasites to reproduce quickly enough to overwhelm other fish that previously didn't show symptoms. Why doesn't that happen in Paul's tank?

It's my cologne.

Every food that every human eats from the grocery store or home grown contains bacteria.

Yes, but not disease bacteria which is needed for immunity

Malaria continues to kill hundreds of thousands of people each year

Yes, but more hundreds of thousands of people are immune due to being exposed and they survived. I have been to those countries and if the malaria didn't kill them, malnutrition would

I don't know the common denominator in our tanks. But they are all immune.

Mn my friend, we will have to agree to disagree on so many points. But it is what it is and I enjoy this debate.

Humblefish and I disagree on just about everything and I consider him a good friend.

 

[Paul B]

The agenda is that quarantining damages a fishes immune system and thus results in fish death (these are Pauls words).

True.

 

[Brew12]

The Plague (of which there were three types ) was actually spread by gerbels in China. But what do I know!

If they had QT'd their gerbels it would never have been an issue.

 

[MnFish1]

You seem to have been pretty clear about your post. I'm not sure what there was to misunderstand.
Are you now agreeing with Paul that feeding gut bacteria and/or probiotics is an important part of maintaining the immune system? And that feeding fresh/live food with the guts is part of that?

Since you only quoted a couple sentences of what I posted - I am not sure how to what you're saying.

I think Im replying correctly when I say this (to repeat my post). There is no difference between live and frozen fish when it comes to bacteria(ie no benefit to cutting up fresh cod vs thawing frozen cod from the store). Some foods have bacteria added - and in Fish farming, probiotics such as these (in some studies) have helped to increase the speed of fish growth (that may be proven) - but it has nothing to do with the immune system. In adult fish, Im not aware that bacteria are needed to 'maintain the immune system' in fish that are not exposed to antibiotics, etc. IMHO - there is no benefit to feeding fresh cod from the sea - cut up and mixed with something else as compared to using a frozen fish food. In fact some articles suggest that hobbyists making their own food may be detrimental as it doesn't provide a balanced diet - and instead selects for the fish that can tolerate the diet - while the others don't survive. Google it if you dont believe me.

Im not even sure there is a benefit to using the probiotic included foods - Are the 'gut bacteria' used in these foods the same as the gut bacteria found in fish? - or the bacteria found in the human gut? I do not think its necessary for humans to take probiotics - nor do I think its beneficial for fish to be given probiotics - but it doesn't 'hurt'. Hope that answers your questions.