Brew12
Electrical Gru
Fish are friends, not food. Don't you watch any movies?Do they enforce that on the fish in the sea? I assume the sharks, moray eels, groupers and tuna are Vegans.
It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)
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OP
OP
Lol... something to do with humans not causing harm or distress to any animal (later defined as any animal with a backbone)Do they enforce that on the fish in the sea? I assume the sharks, moray eels, groupers and tuna are Vegans.
I am sure that would be legal.
Unnecessary suffering
(1)A person commits an offence if—
(a)an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,
So in feeding live fish we are causing the feeders to suffer... in not feeding them we could potentially be causing suffering to the hungry fish... hence why in the UK it's so important to get fish eating dead food asap.
Dunno how that would work for elasmobranchs?!?
Sleeperr34
Active Member
That is amazingOK so I assume when they sell that Fish and Chips, those fish died of old age.
OP
OP
The making of fish and chips is necessary suffering lol.OK so I assume when they sell that Fish and Chips, those fish died of old age.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I guess you have to have laws in place to keep people from feeding puppies to alligators but still.....
OP
OP
I'm a vague attempt to get this thread back on track (!) I introduced brook yesterday... very low level, a piece of infected tissue from a friend of mines lion who sadly didn't make it through his QT (irony!) Was confirmed as brook by a local (trusted) LFS.
Was a piece of fin tissue, with about 3 or 4 spots on it, put into the sump, after UV return... 24 hours later and all is well... no symptoms at all.
Question... would this be enough to provide a source of brook? As stated before, I'm really not into putting a heavily diseased but alive fish into my system and am looking for ways to provide, but minimise, exposure to common pathogens...
Was a piece of fin tissue, with about 3 or 4 spots on it, put into the sump, after UV return... 24 hours later and all is well... no symptoms at all.
Question... would this be enough to provide a source of brook? As stated before, I'm really not into putting a heavily diseased but alive fish into my system and am looking for ways to provide, but minimise, exposure to common pathogens...
Paul B
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Rock Pool Reef Keepers
You are in uncharted territory now and I doubt anyone would be able to give you anything but a vague guess based on innuendo and rumor
OP
OP
It's ok... I like drawing maps
Another few hours on and all is good... no symptoms observed and feeding as normal on the homebrew...
Either it's been a success, or everything will die in the next 24 hours or it wasn't enough to really introduce the pathogen.
I've kept the lion body in the freezer (Don't tell my Mrs!) and am planning on adding a bit more tissue next week... appreciate the freezing will have killed the parasites by then but I figured it's a way of introducing unviable parasites to prepare the immune response... I have asked the same reefer if I could 'borrow' an infected fish if he still has any alive and displaying symptoms in a few weeks... that'll be the ultimate test.
OP
OP
Does anyone know of a reliable method of testing for the presence of parasites in the water column or on rock / sand etc? I have access to a lab if needed...
Cheers.
Cheers.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
But this is the internet, the greatest source of knowledge in the history of mankind!!! ;Bookworm
I can't find anything in the way of scientific papers on Brook. Some parasites will leave a dead host almost immediately making transfer by tissue sample difficult but I can't find anything to see if that is true with Brook.
Paul B
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That is true, of course most of it is wrong.
In my tank adding those parasites or Bubonic Plague would do nothing but your tank has not been exposed that long so I don't know what would happen. If you want to introduce those dead parasites you could put them in some food and feed them to your fish as much of the immune process goes through the fishes kidney, unlike us where it takes place in our ears.
This thread is great and some day, I am sure all of our fish will be kept in an immune state just as they are in the sea and there will be no more use for disease forums. That is the next step. This hobby is still in it's infancy for some reason when it comes to disease and we spend much more time trying to cure disease rather than avoiding disease in the first place like the fish themselves learned how to do millions of years ago, even before the internet was invented.
We Humans who are lucky enough to live in civilized countries no longer get the infectious diseases we used to die from by the thousands. Small pox, Plague, Tetanus, Polio are just a few. We gradually learned how to immunize ourselves from them because we are not constantly exposed to them any more. But people who live in places where those diseases are still prevalent continue to get them only because most of those people are in a horrible state of health due to either food, water or shelter shortages. The lucky people in those places who have enough food and water are almost immune from those things because they eat correctly and are constantly exposed.
People in South East Asia are constantly bitten by malaria carrying mosquitoes. I know because I was there. But the "healthy" people do not get malaria. If they did, there would be no people there because you can't get away from those mosquitoes, especially the big ones with antlers.
Healthy people in those places have been exposed to those diseases all their life and they are practically immune.
But for some reason when you mention that on open forums, so many people just don't get it. It's like Big Foot. Like, whats not to believe!
OP
OP
Thank Brew...
The tissue was in my tank within about 6 hours of death and the lion was removed from QT and kept in a separate bucket within about 30 mins of death. There were obvious spots and mucous on the tissue sample...
Failing a reliable test... i assume microscopic inspection would reveal the parasite. Apparently it's a distinctive kidney shape. Would it be worth taking some sample scrapings from the rock / sand / algae etc and checking?
My fear is that it's just needle in the haystack stuff at that point and I could be checking for a year without seeing anything!
Sorry... not really up on the brook lifecycle... have done some research and as I understand it it doesn't have the same lifecycle as ich. I've also read that it isn't an obligate parasite and I have seen one reference to it being found on a soft coral. It multiplies by simple binary fission, so not sure where to start looking!
Thinking about it, next time I might add a bit of tissue and check it under the microscope first and then compare the same bit of tissue after 24 hours in my tank... I'd expect to see some changes in numbers of parasites in that time period... but all that proves is that it's multiplying on a piece of tissue it was already present on.
OP
OP
Agreed! I'm really after some sort of evidence that the parasite is present... I guess that's the scientist in me coming out Lol.That is true, of course most of it is wrong.
In my tank adding those parasites or Bubonic Plague would do nothing but your tank has not been exposed that long so I don't know what would happen. If you want to introduce those dead parasites you could put them in some food and feed them to your fish as much of the immune process goes through the fishes kidney, unlike us where it takes place in our ears.
This thread is great and some day, I am sure all of our fish will be kept in an immune state just as they are in the sea and there will be no more use for disease forums. That is the next step. This hobby is still in it's infancy for some reason when it comes to disease and we spend much more time trying to cure disease rather than avoiding disease in the first place like the fish themselves learned how to do millions of years ago, even before the internet was invented.
We Humans who are lucky enough to live in civilized countries no longer get the infectious diseases we used to die from by the thousands. Small pox, Plague, Tetanus, Polio are just a few. We gradually learned how to immunize ourselves from them because we are not constantly exposed to them any more. But people who live in places where those diseases are still prevalent continue to get them only because most of those people are in a horrible state of health due to either food, water or shelter shortages. The lucky people in those places who have enough food and water are almost immune from those things because they eat correctly and are constantly exposed.
People in South East Asia are constantly bitten by malaria carrying mosquitoes. I know because I was there. But the "healthy" people do not get malaria. If they did, there would be no people there because you can't get away from those mosquitoes, especially the big ones with antlers.
Healthy people in those places have been exposed to those diseases all their life and they are practically immune.
But for some reason when you mention that on open forums, so many people just don't get it. It's like Big Foot. Like, whats not to believe!
At this stage I'd almost take a breakout of brook above just not knowing!
Mind you biology is the maddest science... where else does multiplication give the same result as division [emoji6]
OP
OP
If you want to introduce those dead parasites you could put them in some food and feed them to your fish as much of the immune process goes through the fishes kidney, unlike us where it takes place in our ears.
I could blend the dead lion into the next batch of food? That may mean divorce however... I haven't broken it to her that it's even in the freezer... just hope she doesn't fancy some raspberry ripple ice cream anytime soon!
OP
OP
How do you remove the venom from a frozen lionfish?
OP
OP
The damsels have bred again...
OP
OP
36 hours since the introduction of brook...
Everything is dead [emoji20]
Lol... not really... all good in the hood... I did see the maroons breathing a little heavier about 4 hours ago, but have just fed again. Lights are now out and breathing in both seemed normal. No visible signs of infection in any fish and nothing of note at all apart from the clowns.
Do I count this as a success? Not sure yet... I have secured a promise now on any brook infected fish my LFS happen across over the next few months so we shall see...
Everything is dead [emoji20]
Lol... not really... all good in the hood... I did see the maroons breathing a little heavier about 4 hours ago, but have just fed again. Lights are now out and breathing in both seemed normal. No visible signs of infection in any fish and nothing of note at all apart from the clowns.
Do I count this as a success? Not sure yet... I have secured a promise now on any brook infected fish my LFS happen across over the next few months so we shall see...
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