It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Gareth elliott]

 

[Kmsutows]

An ozone generator is definitely the lowest cost filtration solution and that is what I "currently" use. I bought the ozone instead of UV to "save" money, or so I thought. The problem with them, at least in my case, is I can still smell the slight odor of ozone in my fish room at night when the generator is running. You also have to spend a lot of cash on carbon (GAC). I bought and tested 2 different reactors that were supposed to eliminate all residual ozone but even the manufacturer of one of them told me that their is still a little bit of ozone smell left over.

My wife can smell the ozone when she goes near the fish room late at night. As a result, we had a "big discussion" about it. Now the ozone generator gets blamed for everything. Long story short, I promised to replace the ozone generator with a UV sterilizer. I will have to replace the UV bulb periodically but I won't need to run carbon to absorb residual ozone anymore either. The bulb vs carbon cost should be a wash. The cost of the UV itself is much higher then an ozone generator ($120 VS $400).

The UV sterilizer that the top reefers like slief and others recommend is the UltraUV brand. In my case, I have a 150 gallon system so I'll be getting their 57 watt unit, which is rated for 350 gallons. I'm also getting the model that includes a bulb cleaner/wiper bar. It's always best to use a UV sterilizer that is properly powered or slightly over sized for the size of your system.

That's exactly what I have for my 150gal, a 57 watt UV. I can say it has worked wonders. I run it every so often but it's not needed 24hrs. When I got my Achilles I ran it 24hrs a day to be safe for the first week then just nights for a week but keep it off now. I just use it when adding new fish or if I see the occasional spot.

 

[MnFish1]

If they are infected, how are they immune?

They are still alive - with ich on their bodies. Thus they could be immune. Its fairly common that fish in immune tanks have 1-2 Ich spots from time to time. Of course I didn't mean a fish covered in ich - but even that fish would have an advantage over one that had never been exposed to ich at all.

 

[Kmsutows]

Don't you ever sleep? Anyway, I have not fixed my ozonizer yet but hope to soon. If anyone uses my system (which isn't my system it is Mother Nature's System) it will be tough to get started unless you do it when you set up the tank.

My "system" is the easiest system because it is not a system but the lack of a system. No quarantine, no hospital tanks, no medications, no nothing so it's not really a system but you should have some Grand Marnier around so you can watch your healthy fish from a comfortable chair while others are waiting 72 days before they add their fish, many of which will croak before that time as fish don't like quarantine.
See how many mandarins or copperbands live through that.

Paul, why do you insist that the ozone and/or diatom filters you use are not important yet have always used them? As land shark stated, and actually I myself, have tried your live bacteria healthy food method only to have to add UV to fully rid any signs of parasites? Again, like land shark stated, it's the sum of all you do. How can you say you have no system? The one thing that you do that is significantly different from most peoples "systems" is use ozone and diatom filters. Plenty of people feed healthy foods but not many use this filtration part of your "system"

 

[fishybizzness]

If they are infected, how are they immune?

As a kid, our parents always allowed us to play outdoors. We would go swimming in our local harbour, play in the dirt, and just get dirty all the time. It was part of being a kid. I'm pretty sure that we were exposed to many parasites and pathogens during that time. When we inevitable got sick, our parents or grandparents would usually make some tea or other concoction from the many herbs or medicinal tea everyone had growing in their yard. They would rarely give us any otc meds as they felt they could do a much better job with natural meds. Alot of our food was naturally obtained. We raised chickens for eggs and meat, we raised goats, we went fishing regularly and had a more natural diet. Generations today have for the most part lost those natural healing skills. Kids stay indoors on their computer or gaming system for hours on end. Parents are afraid of letting their kids get dirty for fear of them getting sick. Alot of parents are refusing to let their children be immunized. Even the food they feed them are mostly proccessed. As a result, we are always seeing where old diseases that were thought to be extinct are suddenly reappearing.
Paul and several others have been reefing old school for decades. They feed a natural diet, not much proccessed food, they add parasite infected fish to their tank and yes, do use stuff like ozone and uv to keep any issues in control. As on a natural reef, their fish are infected but are resistant to full blown infection just as we, as kids, were exposed to many parasites and pathogens but were healed by natural methods and were fed a healthy diet thus allowing us to be exposed many times in our life but never be infected to a dangerous level.

 

[Land Shark]

Paul, why do you insist that the ozone and/or diatom filters you use are not important yet have always used them? As land shark stated, and actually I myself, have tried your live bacteria healthy food method only to have to add UV to fully rid any signs of parasites? Again, like land shark stated, it's the sum of all you do. How can you say you have no system? The one thing that you do that is significantly different from most peoples "systems" is use ozone and diatom filters. Plenty of people feed healthy foods but not many use this filtration part of your "system"

On some days Paul gives credit to his ozone and diatom filtration methods to reduce the percentage of parasites in his tank. They are clearly "a part" of why he has claims of near 100% success. But for some reason, on other days he doesn't give credit to them at all.

It may be that he discounted both filtration methods when he wrote his book and doesn't want to revise his stance now. Or it could just be dementia creeping in. I'm 53 and I catch myself showing an occasional sign of dementia with each passing year. I'm getting older. Duh, aren't we all. So what do I do about it? I take better notes and reference them more often. We're all getting dementia in some form or another at our own individual pace. Perhaps Paul is just like the rest of us in that respect.

 

[Land Shark]

No Paul there is a difference. Finding fish that are infected already may be immune. I said put CI or velvet in the tank at a known lethal dose. I would like to see how “immune” your fish are

Mnfish1 has a reason for asking his question this way and that's because he specializes in microbiology and immunology. So what is that exactly? I had to look it up and it's stated a field of medicine focused on "emerging infectious diseases, microscopy, recombinant DNA technology, domains in microbial classification, infectious diseases, antibiotic resistance, immunology, and industrial uses of microbes. Emphasis on understanding the key clinical concepts of microbiology, virology, and infection."

Paul, here is his question again. "Put CI or velvet in the tank at a known lethal dose. I would like to see how “immune” your fish are."

The question I have is where would anyone be able to get water containing these parasites and how would anyone know what constitutes a lethal dose?

 

[Paul B]

Paul, why do you insist that the ozone and/or diatom filters you use are not important yet have always used them? As land shark stated, and actually I myself, have tried your live bacteria healthy food method only to have to add UV to fully rid any signs of parasites? Again, like land shark stated, it's the sum of all you do. How can you say you have no system? The one thing that you do that is significantly different from most peoples "systems" is use ozone and diatom filters. Plenty of people feed healthy foods but not many use this filtration part of your "system"

My ozone generator has been off the tank for 2 months so far. I also added a lot, OK almost all my water from the sea. Some of it I diatom filtered but not because of parasites. I collect water by throwing a pump into the sea where it sits on the sand/mud/seaweed. That stuff would take forever to settle so I remove most of it because I also want a crystal clear tank which it always is.
If I collect from the surface of the water or from my boat, I may just strain it through a coffee filter to remove floating stuff then I dump it in.

Or it could just be dementia creeping in

I am sure it is because I will be 70 on Christmas day. But my Mother lived to 99 and didn't go senile until about 94.

I use, or used ozone for years for water conditions, nothing to do with diseases or parasites. There are amphipods and brittle stars living in my skimmer so I doubt ozone does much to kill parasites. But even if it does, I bet it doesn't kill all of them. My skimmer also gets water from the surface where most parasites don't hang out. My fish are immune and have been since Nixon was President.
It's not ozone, RUGFs, diatom filters or any other silly thing.
They are here now, nice and healthy after a big move, all new water, parameters and temp all over the place. I added one coral since I got here and as soon as I find fish I want, I will throw them in as I have been doing forever. No diseases, no problems.

"Put CI or velvet in the tank at a known lethal dose. I would like to see how “immune” your fish are."

Done that many times because every few years another person comes along and tells me the same thing and figures it is the same things, Ozone, diatom etc. I don't have to prove it because my fish already know it. If you have followed my threads for 15 or so years and my paper magazine articles for 30 years and my book, you would see that.
Parasites, no matter what kind are a non issue for my tank. If you followed my "method" and your fish got sick, you didn't do it right or your fish were quarantined, one thing I feel is probably the biggest cause of fish sickness in the hobby.

 

[Land Shark]

No Paul there is a difference. Finding fish that are infected already may be immune. I said put CI or velvet in the tank at a known lethal dose. I would like to see how “immune” your fish are

Paul, this post was for you. You may have missed it as your reply seems to have overlooked this important point.

 

[Paul B]

I didn't miss it. Send me a lethal dose of whatever you like, and I will throw half of it in as an experiment. The other half we can put in your tank as a control

 

[MnFish1]

I didn't miss it. Send me a lethal dose of whatever you like, and I will throw half of it in as an experiment. The other half we can put in your tank as a control

There are known lethal doses of CI (in non-immune fish) since they are researching a vaccine (at least doses that kill 50% of a given species of fish relatively reproducibly (LD50). This means that if you give a does of CI less than the LD50 fewer fish die, if you give more than the LD50, more than 50% die. It was more a rhetorical question - because - this lethal dose (LD50) for each fish is not known. Additionally, there is no way for the average layperson to culture and count out a dose, per se.

The point, though I think is a good one. Paul is saying his 'tank is immune' (meaning his fish are immune). Putting one fish with Ich in a large tank may not be a high enough dose to do anything to the other inhabitants (i.e. the number of parasites added is too low - less than the LD50).

It is well described that CI can die out in a tank over time especially if there is ozone/filtration in use. So its not even sure that there is enough CI in Pauls tank to be infective.

 

[Brew12]

There are known lethal doses of CI (in non-immune fish) since they are researching a vaccine (at least doses that kill 50% of a given species of fish relatively reproducibly (LD50). This means that if you give a does of CI less than the LD50 fewer fish die, if you give more than the LD50, more than 50% die. It was more a rhetorical question - because - this lethal dose (LD50) for each fish is not known. Additionally, there is no way for the average layperson to culture and count out a dose, per se.

Just to add to this, during most testing they also prevent re-infection. The lethal dose is the number of parasites needed to kill 50% of fish in one generation of those parasites.

 

[cancun]

I didn't miss it. Send me a lethal dose of whatever you like, and I will throw half of it in as an experiment. The other half we can put in your tank as a control

@PaulB you are my idol! [emoji6] LOL! I love reading your articles! I have not been in this hobby nearly as long as you, I won't say my age but my dad just turned 70.... LOL.....I have a Marine Biology background, and right or wrong I have always kept my tank using the "au natural" method....that's what I like to call it. My tank works for me with relatively few issues. Well before my first reef tank while doing a drift dive in Cozumel.....not my favorite reef...but I just like Mexico....lol....I was in awe of the natural beauty......the only thing I do different than Paul is I make my own salt water, I live in the land locked Midwest right now, or I would be using nsw.....

Too each is there own....I know others feel really passionate about QT everything no matter what.....and that's totally fine. I respect everyone's opinion. I hope to read more articles from PaulB.

Also since I came in really late to this thread....what is the name of the book you wrote? I would love too check it out! My anniversary is coming up....I could have my husband get it for me. LOL! [emoji16]

The natural tank minus nsw....so I guess mostly natural..... LOL!

 

[Subsea]

@PaulB you are my idol! [emoji6] LOL! I love reading your articles! I have not been in this hobby nearly as long as you, I won't say my age but my dad just turned 70.... LOL.....I have a Marine Biology background, and right or wrong I have always kept my tank using the "au natural" method....that's what I like to call it. My tank works for me with relatively few issues. Well before my first reef tank while doing a drift dive in Cozumel.....not my favorite reef...but I just like Mexico....lol....I was in awe of the natural beauty......the only thing I do different than Paul is I make my own salt water, I live in the land locked Midwest right now, or I would be using nsw.....

Too each is there own....I know others feel really passionate about QT everything no matter what.....and that's totally fine. I respect everyone's opinion. I hope to read more articles from PaulB.

Also since I came in really late to this thread....what is the name of the book you wrote? I would love too check it out! My anniversary is coming up....I could have my husband get it for me. LOL! [emoji16]

The natural tank minus nsw....so I guess mostly natural..... LOL!

I love @Paul B post as well. It is difficult for me to call him my hero, I am older than him by 6 months, however, if I need a hero, Paul qualifies. He and I were both in the high lands of Cambodia during Vietnam days. He was 82 Airborne Calvary and I was an Air Force crew chief on Puff the Magic Dragon. We both started marine tanks at the same time. His biology came from Long Island Sound and mine came from Galveston Bay.
Laissez les bonne temps roulee,
Patrick

 

[Kmsutows]

My ozone generator has been off the tank for 2 months so far. I also added a lot, OK almost all my water from the sea. Some of it I diatom filtered but not because of parasites. I collect water by throwing a pump into the sea where it sits on the sand/mud/seaweed. That stuff would take forever to settle so I remove most of it because I also want a crystal clear tank which it always is.
If I collect from the surface of the water or from my boat, I may just strain it through a coffee filter to remove floating stuff then I dump it in.



I am sure it is because I will be 70 on Christmas day. But my Mother lived to 99 and didn't go senile until about 94.

I use, or used ozone for years for water conditions, nothing to do with diseases or parasites. There are amphipods and brittle stars living in my skimmer so I doubt ozone does much to kill parasites. But even if it does, I bet it doesn't kill all of them. My skimmer also gets water from the surface where most parasites don't hang out. My fish are immune and have been since Nixon was President.
It's not ozone, RUGFs, diatom filters or any other silly thing.
They are here now, nice and healthy after a big move, all new water, parameters and temp all over the place. I added one coral since I got here and as soon as I find fish I want, I will throw them in as I have been doing forever. No diseases, no problems.



Done that many times because every few years another person comes along and tells me the same thing and figures it is the same things, Ozone, diatom etc. I don't have to prove it because my fish already know it. If you have followed my threads for 15 or so years and my paper magazine articles for 30 years and my book, you would see that.
Parasites, no matter what kind are a non issue for my tank. If you followed my "method" and your fish got sick, you didn't do it right or your fish were quarantined, one thing I feel is probably the biggest cause of fish sickness in the hobby.

Somehow you refuse to see the point. Just because you claim to do something for one reason does not mean it's impossible for it to also do something else. Just because you claim to add a ton of ozone, enough to require a 6 ft skimmer, for clarity does not mean it isn't also killing parasites.
2 months huh? In that time how many sick fish have you added? And again you even say you used a diatom filter. At this point if no new fish were added then your current fish have built up enough immunity to be fine and ich or whatever cannot proliferate. But again, you change water and run the water through filters... how do you not see it?

 

[Subsea]

Somehow you refuse to see the point. Just because you claim to do something for one reason does not mean it's impossible for it to also do something else. Just because you claim to add a ton of ozone, enough to require a 6 ft skimmer, for clarity does not mean it isn't also killing parasites.
2 months huh? In that time how many sick fish have you added? And again you even say you used a diatom filter. At this point if no new fish were added then your current fish have built up enough immunity to be fine and ich or whatever cannot proliferate. But again, you change water and run the water through filters... how do you not see it?

Not having read the complete thread, help the rest of us out. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

 

[Land Shark]

I didn't miss it. Send me a lethal dose of whatever you like, and I will throw half of it in as an experiment. The other half we can put in your tank as a control

My tank runs using the EXACT same method as yours and I have immune fish as well. What makes you think my tank qualifies as a control? Have you not been reading my posts on this thread?

 

[Subsea]

On some days Paul gives credit to his ozone and diatom filtration methods to reduce the percentage of parasites in his tank. They are clearly "a part" of why he has claims of near 100% success. But for some reason, on other days he doesn't give credit to them at all.

It may be that he discounted both filtration methods when he wrote his book and doesn't want to revise his stance now. Or it could just be dementia creeping in. I'm 53 and I catch myself showing an occasional sign of dementia with each passing year. I'm getting older. Duh, aren't we all. So what do I do about it? I take better notes and reference them more often. We're all getting dementia in some form or another at our own individual pace. Perhaps Paul is just like the rest of us in that respect.

Your point is oblique.

 

[Paul B]

Cancun, thank you. I also did the drift dives in Cozumel. Also not my favorite dive location. That would be Bora Bora. My Book is here. http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/avant-garde-marine-aquarist/
For most of the life of my tank I also used ASW but I always had at least a little NSW in there. Now I live closer to the sea so it is all NSW.

Patrick, actually I was in the First Air Cavalry Division. But it is all the same thing. I also thank you for your service. Those "Puff the Magic Dragons" did a fantastic job and I wouldn't want to fly in one of those death traps.

Laissez les bonne temps roulee,

What is that anyway?

Kmsutows. I did not refuse to see the point. I did say my Ozone, when I used it probably killed some parasites just like a cleaner wrasse may eat a few. That means nothing and if an ozonizer will keep your fish healthy, then why doesn't everyone use one. I think I know my fish and tank better than everyone here and I know they are immune. If fish don't get sick in 40 years "They are Immune". You can spin that any way you like and come up with all sorts of scenarios and believe anything you like.

I changed water and ran it through a coffee filter. That may have removed those really big parasites. Sometimes I use a diatom filter. Just because you can't achieve immunity in your tank doesn't mean other people can't.

As soon as I locate some fish I want I will add them, parasites or not, it doesn't matter but I don't see the need to add sick fish every time someone thinks my fish don't get sick because of diatom filters or ozone.
I don't have anything to prove.

Have you not been reading my posts on this thread?

Land Shark my friend. You are reading much to much into my responses and taking me much to seriously.

Didn't you see the little guy I ended with?

 

[Kmsutows]

Cancun, thank you. I also did the drift dives in Cozumel. Also not my favorite dive location. That would be Bora Bora. My Book is here. http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/avant-garde-marine-aquarist/
For most of the life of my tank I also used ASW but I always had at least a little NSW in there. Now I live closer to the sea so it is all NSW.

Patrick, actually I was in the First Air Cavalry Division. But it is all the same thing. I also thank you for your service. Those "Puff the Magic Dragons" did a fantastic job and I wouldn't want to fly in one of those death traps.


What is that anyway?

Kmsutows. I did not refuse to see the point. I did say my Ozone, when I used it probably killed some parasites just like a cleaner wrasse may eat a few. That means nothing and if an ozonizer will keep your fish healthy, then why doesn't everyone use one. I think I know my fish and tank better than everyone here and I know they are immune. If fish don't get sick in 40 years "They are Immune". You can spin that any way you like and come up with all sorts of scenarios and believe anything you like.

I changed water and ran it through a coffee filter. That may have removed those really big parasites. Sometimes I use a diatom filter. Just because you can't achieve immunity in your tank doesn't mean other people can't.

As soon as I locate some fish I want I will add them, parasites or not, it doesn't matter but I don't see the need to add sick fish every time someone thinks my fish don't get sick because of diatom filters or ozone.
I don't have anything to prove.



Land Shark my friend. You are reading much to much into my responses and taking me much to seriously.

Didn't you see the little guy I ended with?

Actually I have achieved what you call immunity, as I've stated. By using your methods and substituting UV instead of diatom filters and ozone. It didnt and doesnt work without something besides "gut bacteria". Not everyone uses ozone for obvious reasons and with the help of people who insist on using it but claim it doesnt do anything doesnt help.