It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[MnFish1]

Another angle is that all aquatic life interacts with their environment differently than terrestrial animals. I have no studies to collaborate this but would hypothesize there is less less water borne disease in say sea lions as opposed to sea otters that spend significantly more time in the ocean.

But i could very well be wrong as Chytridiomycosis species susceptibility is independent of the particular amphibians need for water. Some direct development salamanders are effected where some salamanders that breed in water are only reservoirs.

I think you might be right. I just read an article that there are documented cases where aquarium fish can act as reservoirs for CI which has encysted for 4 to 5 years. This is different than what I have read before which suggests that CI always drops off the fish and then can be reinfected

Edit. I may have read this incorrectly in the article I read and I can’t find the article. So take this statement with a large grain of salt

 

[Land Shark]

I happen to agree with Land Shark - The only thing keeping 'immune tanks' immune - is low parasite numbers - whether thats because of already immune fish, small number of fish per volume of tank water, extra filtration that decreases parasite numbers. The rest (feeding excellent foods, etc) is something that everyone should be doing anyway. Adding bacteria and mud - Im sorry I still don't see the rationale. Lots of science out there suggests that added bacteria often die off - and are outcompeted by the bacteria already in the tank - or they take over the tank's bacteria - leading to a net loss of diversity - not a gain.

I think you might be right. I just read an article that there are documented cases where aquarium fish can act as reservoirs for CI which has encysted for 4 to 5 years. This is different than what I have read before which suggests that CI always drops off the fish and then can be reinfected

Do you have url to the article? I’d like to check it out.

 

[Land Shark]

I happen to agree with Land Shark - The only thing keeping 'immune tanks' immune - is low parasite numbers - whether thats because of already immune fish, small number of fish per volume of tank water, extra filtration that decreases parasite numbers. The rest (feeding excellent foods, etc) is something that everyone should be doing anyway. Adding bacteria and mud - Im sorry I still don't see the rationale. Lots of science out there suggests that added bacteria often die off - and are outcompeted by the bacteria already in the tank - or they take over the tank's bacteria - leading to a net loss of diversity - not a gain.

I think you might be right. I just read an article that there are documented cases where aquarium fish can act as reservoirs for CI which has encysted for 4 to 5 years. This is different than what I have read before which suggests that CI always drops off the fish and then can be reinfected

Do you have a url to the article? I’d like to check it out.

 

[MnFish1]

More info on CI and where they reside:

Once the theront locates a host it only takes 5 minutes for it to burrow into the skin while during gill invasion, the parasite can become enclosed by a thin layer of cells within 20–30 minutes. At this point, the cycle starts all over again.

 

[MnFish1]

Do you have a url to the article? I’d like to check it out.

Yes I’m trying to find it

 

[Paul B]

The only difference is that in the past you’re the one that says ich doesn’t damage skin but instead eats slime.

Not exactly. I don't think I said anywhere that ich doesn't damage the skin. Of course it does. But if the antibodies in the slime ward off the parasite, it doesn't get through to the skin. Most of the parasites just slough off the slime. But if I said that they don't damage the skin, I was totally wrong as I am probably senile.

I also started that thing about parasites eating slime with the words "I Think". Meaning, I am guessing as many of us are doing or we are reading something someone wrote who also guessed. I rarely say something is true unless I see it for myself. There is plenty of research I disagree with and have over the years.

I "think" parasites are living happily in my and others tanks living off fish slime. They can't hold on to the fish for long because of the antiparisite substances in an immune fish but they can stay long enough to get a meal and reproduce. The parasite doesn't "want" to kill the fish as that would not benefit the parasite, except for maybe bragging rites. But the parasite eats slime and stays alive.

The gills are easy as they are very delicate feather looking things and the only defense they have is slime.
Scaleless fish have thicker slime to ward off the parasites getting through. Ever pick up an eel? They are really slimy and you can't hold them at all.

 

[Land Shark]

Humblefish posted what follows on another thread. Note his references to immunity and to the use of uv, ozone, oxidators and diatom filters to reduce (but not eliminate) parasites and pathogens in tanks.

Quarantining pros and cons
Whenever you buy new livestock, you can place it in a QT (Quarantine Tank) or put it directly into your DT (Display Tank). The choice, of course, is yours, and it's important to understand that there are pros & cons no matter what you decide. We live in a day and age when everyone is looking for a "perfect answer" - although no such thing actually exists.

First, there is much debate on exactly how to QT in the first place:

1. Some choose to prophylactically treat for parasites, worms, infections, etc. by using medications/chemicals before symptoms of disease even present themselves. The argument here is by the time symptoms do show it is sometimes too late to treat/save the fish. The downside to this approach is all meds/chemicals have side effects and thus, can be harmful to fish (no way of sugarcoating it).
2. Some choose to passively observe (sometimes in a mini-DT like natural setting), and only treat if symptoms are observed. This is easier on the fish, but one must react quickly if white spots (for example) suddenly appear. If using rock/sand in this observation tank, it is advisable to have a second QT on standby which can be setup on short notice. This "treatment tank" should be bare bottom (with no rock) to avoid absorption issues with medications. You can use PVC elbows (found at Home Depot or Lowe's) as hiding places for the fish.

So, which approach is better? I've always felt whether or not to prophylactically treat has more to do with YOU than the FISH. Are you an overly observant person? Will you notice little things like elevated breathing, head twitching, yawning, etc. which necessitates further investigation/treatment? Do you have 15-20 minutes every single day to sit in front of your QT (eat dinner with your fish?) to watch for scratching, flashing, swimming into the flow of a powerhead, etc.? If so, passive observation might just work for you! However, if you are always on the go, busy/hectic schedule or just don't notice the little things; then it would be wise to implement some form of prophylaxis when it comes to diseases. I recommend using Prazipro (or API General Cure) in order to deworm, and either copper or Chloroquine phosphate to treat for ich/velvet.

Unfortunately, quarantining just your fish is not enough. Parasite tomonts can encyst to corals, shells, any hard surface really. More info regarding How to Quarantine Corals and Inverts can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/how-to-quarantine-coral-and-inverts.228/

And also here: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/coral-invert-quarantine-time-frames.382/

Is quarantining foolproof? Of course not! Can it fail? Yup! What are the reasons why? Well, first and foremost is human error:

• Not checking your copper level on a regular basis to ensure it is remaining therapeutic. More info on that here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-test-kits.257924/
• Dosing non-copper medications into a long-term QT and/or one with rock & sand. Look here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/qt-and-biofilm.292878/
• Failing to take steps to avoid cross contamination and not respecting aerosol transmission: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/
• Copper and other meds are immunosuppressants; so it's very importantto feed nutritious, vitamin enriched foods during the QT period (and beyond!): https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/vitamins-herbal-remedies.304287/
• Knowing copper is a poison, it's a good idea to slowly ramp it up to therapeutic over a 5-7 day period. This allows your fish in QT to slowly adapt to it, and there should be warning signs of copper intolerance (e.g. fish stops eating) before the fish just dies from it.
• Allowing ammonia to build-up and kill your fish in QT. Remember, using any ammonia reducer (e.g. Prime, Amquel) with any medication (especially copper) is a BIG NO-NO. Also, since most medications in the water will cause false positives with liquid ammonia test kits, it's wise to always use a Seachem ammonia alert badge in QT: https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php
• Mixing/combining medications in QT is never a good idea unless faced with an emergency situation (i.e. treating multiple diseases). In addition to depleting available oxygen out of the water, the fish's liver & kidneys has to process/filter every med you dose into the water. Also, more meds dumped on a fish causes increased side effects like appetite suppression. BOTTOM LINE IS MOST MEDS/CHEMICALS ARE BAD FOR FISH, and should be viewed/respected as the "lesser of two evils" when faced with parasites, worms and flesh eating bacteria. ;Yuck

P.S. The DOs and DON’Ts of Quarantine can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dos-and-don’ts-of-quarantine.203898/

There are also a number of factors beyond your control which can cause QT to fail:

• When you go to the doctor, the treatment or medication he/she prescribes doesn't always work. Same thing can happen with fish! Since April, I've encountered half a dozen strains of praziquantel resistant flukes & turbellarians (Black Ich) - that I had to use hyposalinity or formalin on in order to fully eradicate.
• I'm encountering many more occurrences of Brooklynella & Uronema than I expected, and on fish previously not known to be susceptible to these parasites. Therefore, those who choose to prophylactically treat may want to use metronidazole as a precaution. Chloroquine phosphate and formalin are two other options for dealing with brook/uronema.
• It is theoretically possible (but never confirmed) for parasites (and other pathogens) to develop a resistance to medications (or copper), if they have been previously exposed to such at a subtherapeutic level. We've all heard stories about how LFS and wholesalers like to use subtherapeutic copper to "control" parasites. Are they unwittingly creating fish superbugs? :mad:
• Just like with humans, things can go wrong inside a fish as well. With internal parasites/intestinal worms you may notice white stringy poo, but symptoms of internal infections are almost never visible. There are no viable treatments for viruses (e.g. Lymphocystis) in SW fish - the best you can do is manage symptoms and hope the fish's natural immune system will send the virus into remission. Spinal injuries/swim bladder disorders can also sometimes prove to be fatal in QT. However, it's important to note that all of these are possible threats you face whether the fish is in QT or not.
• ^^ Knowing all of the above, don't be in a rush to get your fish out of QT! There should always be an "observation period" of at least 2 weeks after you use meds on a fish, to ensure nothing was missed (or returns.) This observation period should take place in nonmedicated water so there is no chance of a disease just being suppressed.

What about those who opt not to quarantine? Well, their success rate is mixed for a number of reasons. Statistically speaking, it's only a matter of time before they introduce a disease into their DT whether they are aware of it or not. Whether or not you are able to successfully manage the presence of a disease in your DT comes down to your ability to keep the overall number of pathogens low, while simultaneously boosting the fishes’ immune systems to deal with the ones that survive:

1. It's no secret that the larger your aquarium is the more successful you are likely to be at disease management; since parasites, worms & harmful bacteria are naturally diluted by greater water volume. The same holds true for tanks lightly stocked with fish (reduces the pathogen's food source) and/or fish with thick slime/mucous coats (e.g. wrasses, clownfish, dragonets) which serves to protect them. Conversely, Acanthurus Tangs and other thin slime coat species are most at risk from parasites, worms, etc.
2. A UV sterilizer and/or diatom filter is useful for siphoning parasite free swimmers out of the water, albeit probably not all of them. The use of dissolved ozone can help fight disease, and an Oxydator has been likened to, "putting an oxygen mask on the fish" to aid with breathing when parasites invade the gills.
   
3. Feeding live foods, utilizing proper nutrition and using vitamins can greatly help to boost a fish's natural immune system. In addition, herbal remedies can sometimes be useful to boost the immune system and/or thicken a fish's slime coat to withstand damage inflicted by parasites, worms and bacteria.
4. Maintaining pristine water conditions, stable parameters, and limiting fish conflicts (which sometimes leads to injury/open wounds) helps to keep "stress" in an aquarium at a minimal. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and constant fighting lowers a fish's immune system, which makes him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.
   
5. Sounds good! So what's the problem with just doing that?? Well, a) It doesn't always work b) It's a forever thing. If you start using a UV sterilizer to manage parasites in your aquarium, change the lamp religiously every 6 months and have a backup on standby just in case. Because if it suddenly goes down, your entire fish population could be next. If you use herbal products to control parasites and secondary infections in your DT, buy stock in the company because you will be dosing that stuff for life. Oh, and when you go on vacation be sure to hire a tank sitter who can manage all these little idiosyncrasies or you might come home to a disaster... For me anyway, there’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.

Conclusions: I've been at this since I was a child... I was born into this hobby if you will... and I've tried both quarantining and not quarantining. The latter always left me disappointed and feeling defeated in the end. Quarantining can be tough, even heart-wrenching sometimes, but it has brought me the greatest success and feeling of accomplishment in my almost 40 years of keeping fish. Once a fish has graduated to my DT, I know he will likely be with me for many years to come so I name him/her and get to know the personality. If I rehome a fish, I usually keep up with how that fish is doing and sometimes even receive pictures/video from the new owner. You see, quarantining isn't just about the well-being of new fish. It's also about protecting your babies in the DT from disease and unwanted pathogens. You wouldn't bring a beloved pet dog or cat around another that had fleas, mange or rabies, would you? Hoping he/she would build up a resistance or immunity to it. Don't our pet fish deserve equal protection? That right there is why, at least for me, the pros of QT will always outweigh the cons.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/quarantining-the-pros-cons.437442/page-2#post-5017372

 

[WVNed]

I ordered a Vortex Diatom filter today. Any tips for getting it to last in saltwater. I had one a long time ago and gave it to my father in law when his died.
9 new fish. No QT

Feels like Russian roulette now.

 

[Paul B]

Don't get salt water on it.

 

[WVNed]

Don't get salt water on it.

I will set it by the tank in the box to ward off evil spirits.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Off topic slightly. But was from this thread i got the idea [emoji23].

Had ordered a bag o bugs from garf. their shipping is terrible for the price. Dont see anything still being alive when it arrives. Shipped on the 23rd arrives the 31st. Next time will order from elsewhere.

 

[FriedReef TV]

Gweeds, the way you feed, "all" your paired fish should be spawning as I know they will. Spawning goes along with immunity and if your fish become truly immune, only being run over by a school bus, twice will kill them and disease will be a non issue like it has been for me for decades.

I have a 20 gallon tank and my clownfish has ich but it went away on its own (yes, I know the little parasites are having sex and making millions of babies in the sand), but my tank is a month old but i dumped tons of different bacteria in there and added live rock, do you think i have enough diversity in the tank? I feed brine shrimp and mysis every day. The clown is fine and he eats great. My only other fish is a filefish and he has no ich and is doing great too. I only added him about 5 days ago though. Should i just let the tank run and keep the fish fed and see what happens?

 

[Halal Hotdog]

I have a 20 gallon tank and my clownfish has ich but it went away on its own (yes, I know the little parasites are having sex and making millions of babies in the sand), but my tank is a month old but i dumped tons of different bacteria in there and added live rock, do you think i have enough diversity in the tank? I feed brine shrimp and mysis every day. The clown is fine and he eats great. My only other fish is a filefish and he has no ich and is doing great too. I only added him about 5 days ago though. Should i just let the tank run and keep the fish fed and see what happens?

Paul's techniques work for him in a very established (10+ year) tanks. It would be close to impossible to replicate his results in a new tank.

 

[Paul B]

FriedReef. I would throw out the brine shrimp and use LRS food with the mysis.

Paul's techniques work for him in a very established (10+ year) tanks. It would be close to impossible to replicate his results in a new tank.

Halal, my tank used to be 10 years old, it worked then.
But you are correct, new tanks are much harder

 

[Lasse]

My tank is 3 years old - looks like this for at least 1 year now and it works with many of PaulB´s principles

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brad Miller]

My thoughts....
@Paul B 's way is much the same concept as used in the medical field with the human body.
If your children aren't exposed to viruses and such, they will be more susceptible to get very sick later in life from that same virus they weren't exposed to earlier.
Our body needs to develop resistance to what we are exposed to in order to progress to the next one we will be exposed to and so on....

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Inoculating to a parasite is very different than bacteria or virus. Everything does have a predator and I think that is a big part of why Paul's system works. Having balanced nutrition is also critical, but having balanced nutrition alone cannot create his results. I am land locked and have never been able to create a biodiversity large enough to combat velvet. For me QT is the way to go.

 

[elisa h]

Yes viruses and parasites such as ich and velvet are extremely different. Children shouldn’t be exposed to parasites such as pinworm etc. But living in a too clean environment as a child can lead to type one hypersensitivities and possible immunodeficiencies. Also parasites and viruses are dealt with by very different parts of the immune system. Parasites and helminths are usually targeted by eosinophils which are part of our innate immune system. This part of our immune system does not adapt or change as we are exposed to things. I wonder if this is the same for fish? Wouldn’t it be their innate immunity fighting off things like ich and velvet? I wouldn’t think innate immunity is something we can just stimulate by adding diversity/inoculating with the parasite. I may be wrong though I’m not a biologist just had to take micro as a nursing school prerequisite lol

 

[Gweeds1980]

Yes viruses and parasites such as ich and velvet are extremely different. Children shouldn’t be exposed to parasites such as pinworm etc. But living in a too clean environment as a child can lead to type one hypersensitivities and possible immunodeficiencies. Also parasites and viruses are dealt with by very different parts of the immune system. Parasites and helminths are usually targeted by eosinophils which are part of our innate immune system. This part of our immune system does not adapt or change as we are exposed to things. I wonder if this is the same for fish? Wouldn’t it be their innate immunity fighting off things like ich and velvet? I wouldn’t think innate immunity is something we can just stimulate by adding diversity/inoculating with the parasite. I may be wrong though I’m not a biologist just had to take micro as a nursing school prerequisite lol

It's been shown in studies (cited elsewhere in the thread) that ich at least incites a response from both the innate and adaptive immune system in fish. Immunity to a particular strain is obtained upon exposure (and survival of) to that strain. In that way, these ciliate parasites can be considered to have more in common with viruses if we are comparing immune responses to humans.

 

[Wowkuh]

Its too bad we as humans can't be exposed to cancer and aids to help build our immunities ... QT is the way go.