It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

Lowell Lemon

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It is very possible that bacteria “gnaw on” / damage tomonts, but what guarantees are there that will be enough in a closed system? Same applies to a UV and other methods for filtering out free swimmers. I don’t doubt these various management techniques work for some, but you take the risk that someday you may introduce a pathogen into your aquarium which will overwhelm your defenses.

True but in actual practice I have never had that problem. I maintained aquarium systems up to 1700 gallons for customers for years and the most vulnerable time was the first year. After that the systems were rock solid and then became money makers on the maintenance fees. I guaranteed populations of fish and inverts at certain levels (numbers and types) as part of the contract. Risky on my part? Not really due to the success I had with the systems design. Populations stabilized along with the maturity of the systems. I know this is just observation on my part but I often had multiple systems under contract in two states sometimes a six hour drive one way. So I had to have confidence in the systems with a 6 to 8 hour delay before I could be on site. I had a mix of systems some with UV and some without. All systems had trickle filters, protein skimmers, ATO, light timmers, real live rock at 1 lb. per gallon, filter feeders, macro algae, and of course fish! I topped off the ATO sumps with a portable DI filter. I kept my own tanks the same way and was wholesaling fish and inverts to local stores to build interest in marine aquariums. I was building and selling the tanks, filters, light systems, and stands so I wanted to build up interest in the local stores as a way to drive sales of the aquariums and related equipment. It got to be too much and I let the tank maintenance go and the stores were handed off to Quality Marine for their livestock needs.
 
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Humblefish

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True but in actual practice I have never had that problem. I maintained aquarium systems up to 1700 gallons for customers for years and the most vulnerable time was the first year. After that the systems were rock solid and then became money makers on the maintenance fees. I guaranteed populations of fish and inverts at certain levels (numbers and types) as part of the contract. Risky on my part? Not really due to the success I had with the systems design. Populations stabilized along with the maturity of the systems. I know this is just observation on my part but I often had multiple systems under contract in two states sometimes a six hour drive one way. So I had to have confidence in the systems with a 6 to 8 hour delay before I could be on site. I had a mix of systems some with UV and some without. All systems had trickle filters, protein skimmers, ATO, light timmers, real live rock at 1 lb. per gallon, filter feeders, macro algae, and of course fish! I topped off the ATO sumps with a portable DI filter. I kept my own tanks the same way and was wholesaling fish and inverts to local stores to build interest in marine aquariums. I was building and selling the tanks, filters, light systems, and stands so I wanted to build up interest in the local stores as a way to drive sales of the aquariumsame and related equipment. It got to be too much and I let the tank maintenance go and the stores were handed off to Quality Marine for their livestock needs.

I can counter this with a contrary experience: Many years ago I worked in aquarium maintenance (we had ~ 60 clients.) The owner quarantined all the fish before they went into our clients' tanks. (Actually this became my job.) Our wholesaler was Quality Marine as well.

The clients' aquariums were mostly outfitted with what would be considered "crude equipment" by today's standards. Canister filters, HOB powerfilters and all had undergravel filtration (no offense Paul ;)). I think before I left we started switching some of the tanks over to wet-dry filters. But no trickle filters, protein skimmers, UV or diatom filtration.

The owner would order 60-70 fish at a time, and if I lost 5-6 in QT that was a bad order. Of course, this was before all these various diseases were so prevalent. After a month in QT, the fish went into the clients' tanks where they lived for years & years. Some had been in the systems for 10-15 years before I arrived. The only problem we had was fish developing HLLE, which I attribute to the owner's insistence of only feeding flake, raw shrimp and romaine lettuce. So, it was most likely due to a nutritional deficiency. This is also why I ultimately chose to leave his company.
 

MnFish1

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I remember when Burgess did those studies. I disagreed with some of his work as I disagree with it now. :D
But I am an electrician. :rolleyes:
It would be interesting to hear what you're disagreements would be - mostly they support what you are saying. My disagreement is that the experiment wasn't done on a 'reef fish' - But it was a smart way to do it - because that fish can live in fresh or salt water - so they took some that were in freshwater (not exposed ever to CI) and acclimated them to salt water - so that they could be sure that they were inducing immunity, etc.
 

Lowell Lemon

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I can counter this with a contrary experience: Many years ago I worked in aquarium maintenance (we had ~ 60 clients.) The owner quarantined all the fish before they went into our clients' tanks. (Actually this became my job.) Our wholesaler was Quality Marine as well.

The clients' aquariums were mostly outfitted with what would be considered "crude equipment" by today's standards. Canister filters, HOB powerfilters and all had undergravel filtration (no offense Paul ;)). I think before I left we started switching some of the tanks over to wet-dry filters. But no trickle filters, protein skimmers, UV or diatom filtration.

The owner would order 60-70 fish at a time, and if I lost 5-6 in QT that was a bad order. Of course, this was before all these various diseases were so prevalent. After a month in QT, the fish went into the clients' tanks where they lived for years & years. Some had been in the systems for 10-15 years before I arrived. The only problem we had was fish developing HLLE, which I attribute to the owner's insistence of only feeding flake, raw shrimp and romaine lettuce. So, it was most likely due to a nutritional deficiency. This is also why I ultimately chose to leave his company.

That is because you are a contrarian:rolleyes: and yes we agree that your boss's equipment and feeding protocols we less than what we believe to be acceptable for marine fish. In fact the systems you describe remind me of the days of bleached coral and sand with low light to maintain a clean looking aquarium. Everything lived short lives in those semi-sterile aquariums. A rather large maintenance company in Seattle who shall remain nameless had hundreds of those death traps spread out around the I-5 corridor. I could spot them a mile away as I watched the fish slowly waste away and get replaced almost bimonthly. No live rock, no macro algae, no inverts, all under-gravel driven by a drilled recirculating system with a canister, and heater chamber (all Lifeguard systems), with very low light to discourage algae growth. Plastic plants and bleached coral that they charged the customer for two set ups to keep one in the cleaning cycle and replace each week or biweekly. Tanks looked horrible and the fish matched the tanks. All flake food and some Romaine as you described. Hope that was not your boss!

Compare that to a customer (attorney by trade) who had a basement of aquariums with mated pairs of different types of clownfish with the commensal anemones and macro algae with air driven undergravel, couple of live rocks, and VHO lighting. He was producing and delivering clown fish of various types to many local aquarium stores on the I-5 corridor as a hobby that made him a little money. He wanted to convert to trickle filters (wet/dry) to limit the saltwater creep that was on all his equipment and aquariums. I told him the cost and then asked if it was worth the outlay since he was already more successful than anyone I knew in the industry at that time? I lost the sale but gained his respect. Correct husbandry seems to be of great import versus just equipment would you agree?

Trickle filters produce a higher oxygen level in the water and contributes to the health of the system in actual practice. Romaine lettuce has very little food value to people let alone fish who never saw it in there lives! All the tanks were fed a variety of frozen foods by various manufactures of the day. I also had some Eheim auto feeders feeding small amounts of flakes or pellets at about 4 times a day on some tanks depending on the fish in the system. But the main feeding of twice a day was from someone I trained in the office to feed and observe the eating behavior of the fish. Natural systems like that were able to weather power outages reaching 96 hours in many cases with little or no loss of fish or inverts. :D
 

Kmsutows

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Man when I see the word immune and Paul B in a thread, you know it will be a lively one.



Think an example that might be more fair is influenza.


While folks might not agree with this methods\principles, not sure how people can argue with the results. While I am not a Paul B disciple, I am trying out some of the principles he is advocating and my fish are doing OK.
I think many do agree.. the problem is Paul rarely gives full disclosure of his entire setup and doesnt give credit to the proven methods he uses. Then people go and try half of his method only to end in failure. It's quite simple and not magic. Use a PROVEN method to reduce pest numbers, low stress, and give your fish a healthy diet. It's that simple.
 

MnFish1

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True but in actual practice I have never had that problem. I maintained aquarium systems up to 1700 gallons for customers for years and the most vulnerable time was the first year. After that the systems were rock solid and then became money makers on the maintenance fees. I guaranteed populations of fish and inverts at certain levels (numbers and types) as part of the contract. Risky on my part? Not really due to the success I had with the systems design. Populations stabilized along with the maturity of the systems. I know this is just observation on my part but I often had multiple systems under contract in two states sometimes a six hour drive one way. So I had to have confidence in the systems with a 6 to 8 hour delay before I could be on site. I had a mix of systems some with UV and some without. All systems had trickle filters, protein skimmers, ATO, light timmers, real live rock at 1 lb. per gallon, filter feeders, macro algae, and of course fish! I topped off the ATO sumps with a portable DI filter. I kept my own tanks the same way and was wholesaling fish and inverts to local stores to build interest in marine aquariums. I was building and selling the tanks, filters, light systems, and stands so I wanted to build up interest in the local stores as a way to drive sales of the aquariums and related equipment. It got to be too much and I let the tank maintenance go and the stores were handed off to Quality Marine for their livestock needs.

Question - in that first year where systems were vulnerable what happened? Why do you think there were problems?
 

Paul B

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the problem is Paul rarely gives full disclosure of his entire setup and doesnt give credit to the proven methods he uses.

Which method is that? Everyone is invited here to look at my set up. Bring Grand Marnier. :rolleyes:
 

MnFish1

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Which method is that? Everyone is invited here to look at my set up. Bring Grand Marnier. :rolleyes:

Of course you know what he means. But I'll try to help - he means that you suggest that adding mud, feeding clams, adding parasites (which you aren't really sure you're adding) - keep your fish immune. He is suggesting that you use other methods that keep parasites in check that have nothing to do with the reasons you think your methods work.
 

Lowell Lemon

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Question - in that first year where systems were vulnerable what happened? Why do you think there were problems?

Fish and inverts were more susceptible to possible loss. Once in a reef tank it is hard to catch fish and treat them. Stability seems to come later in a build. As recommended by George Smit, I would encourage my customers to place inverts first and wait about 6 months before adding fish. When people followed that advice they lost very few if any fish. All of this used only real live rock from the sea as a base. The rock was placed in holding tanks to allow it to recover from die off due to shipping. After the rock cycled we would offer it for use in the customers tank.
 

MnFish1

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Fish and inverts were more susceptible to possible loss. Once in a reef tank it is hard to catch fish and treat them. Stability seems to come later in a build. As recommended by George Smit, I would encourage my customers to place inverts first and wait about 6 months before adding fish. When people followed that advice they lost very few if any fish. All of this used only real live rock from the sea as a base. The rock was placed in holding tanks to allow it to recover from die off due to shipping. After the rock cycled we would offer it for use in the customers tank.
Thanks a lot
 

Brew12

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OP
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Gweeds1980

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Yep, nothing to do with disease!! Arrival of child #4 last year meant things were just too tight, money and time. The tank has FW in it currently with a load of Malawi cichlids. However, I'm hoping to have salt back in it by the end of the year, I fancy FOWLR this time around, a few nice butterflies. I will be going on the same basis again I think tho. I'll be sure to update this thread once it's up!
 

MnFish1

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MnFish1

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Brew12

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Yep, nothing to do with disease!! Arrival of child #4 last year meant things were just too tight, money and time. The tank has FW in it currently with a load of Malawi cichlids. However, I'm hoping to have salt back in it by the end of the year, I fancy FOWLR this time around, a few nice butterflies. I will be going on the same basis again I think tho. I'll be sure to update this thread once it's up!
Congrats on the bigger family and I can't wait to see what you do when you jump back into the saltwater!
 

Lasse

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Congratulations to the cichlids :) I'm father of four too - I wait 20 years with that congratulation :) :) :) The best with four children is the bonus - grandchildren :) :) 6 for me :)

Sincerely Lasse
 

Paul B

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4 Kids, OMG, thats enough. Congrats. :D

My fish are still doing great, especially the Hippo tang I added 2 weeks ago. :p

I don't especially like tangs, too boring but I took this picture a few days ago in the Caribbean. They are the most common fish. :rolleyes:

 

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