Just curious: why do people care about lineage and how do you prove it?

[Nick Steele]

I’m not well versed in torch ids but I do know torches can fade quite a bit and then recover. I know someone who constantly buys purple torches for $40 a head and sometimes in a few months they are vibrant show pieces.

 

[Rubberfrog]

Yea i suspected it was fishy. He still hasnt sent me a pic of the (dragon soul) corals he has left. Instead he just sent a 100$ refund.. which is fine. I paid 150 plus 50 shipping.

So i didnt lose out on anything.. its still a torch i dont have.. I can see it has the patterns of a dragon soul.. i see faint stripes of gold ( hard to see in pic)

Look at this pic. Does this look like a dragon soul to you lol ?

That's look like a garden variety torch found at any lfs. I think some of the folks over zealously defending sellers they have no personal or financial connection too are simply justifying their own purchases. I suspect a few of the others are the ones selling this over priced nonsense.

With that said, if one guy wants to sell a $20 frag for $250, and some other guy wants to buy it... have at it!

 

[Augus7us]

You can't prove lineage now in my opinion. You can trust someone, sure, but that is not proving lineage. Look at how they do it on classic cars and rare antiques. Its a paper trail with verified documentation.

Just because someone told you the lineage of coral A is from Jason Fox, doesn't mean it is. Just because he has a receipt from Jason fox, doesn't mean its for the same coral. Also unlike a car or an antique or baseball card, a coral changes. So even if you have a signed and notarized document and photo of a coral or whatever livestock, it doesn't mean much. That coral could have died and been replaced with something else. May look exactly the same but its not.

Truth is, based on what I see in the marketplace here, no one cares. "What is the lineage?", "its from so and so"... "OK I'll take it". That essentially proves nothing, but the deal was made.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

The biggest advantage to me is that it makes it easier to search for a colony picture vs. the simple frag picture you usually see. Otherwise, buy from a reputable store or source.

 

[MONTANTK]

I’m not a huge freak about lineage but in many cases it seems as if the color of the original names piece is better than those that don’t have lineage. I notice this a lot with Rastas and Mickey D’s. The originals just seem way brighter. Another example is Todd’s torch. Yeah there’s plenty of bright green torches with blue tips but Todd’s is on another level

 

[fish farmer]

I’m not a huge freak about lineage but in many cases it seems as if the color of the original names piece is better than those that don’t have lineage. I notice this a lot with Rastas and Mickey D’s. The originals just seem way brighter. Another example is Todd’s torch. Yeah there’s plenty of bright green torches with blue tips but Todd’s is on another level

Ahhh....Todd's Torch....is he even reefing anymore?

 

[king aiptasia]

Not specifically corals but purebred lines can be important for genetic disease prevention and for assured quality control. for example when i was buying roaches last i made sure the vendor had no outbreeding in the last 3 to 5 years to ensure there is no surprise genetic defects. Hybrid vigor, as is popularly taught, is a myth I believe. the hybrid will be fine for a first generation but with no constraint or control (natural selection as nature knows it) any subsequent generation is trash. That is why a lot of mixed up mutts are worthless, they are a mystery basket and it's an investment that may fail at the tasks it is put through. This is especially true for plants. Say for example I'm growing potatoes, if i pick random potato plants from the wild and grow them in a field, and proceed to eat them in a stew, I might die, literally I may die from this decision. Potatoes need strict breeding controls to ensure safety under standard processing, same with almonds, cassava and other crops.

As for corals, most are just random ones selected for colors so who really cares, they are not usually bred by us anyway. but at some point if we were trying to conserve the genetic legacy of corals it will be important to have properly recorded colonies from collection to aquarium

 

[MONTANTK]

Ahhh....Todd's Torch....is he even reefing anymore?

Honestly not sure. When I first emptied the hobby Todd’s Torch was the torch to have...at least in my area. Then after a year or two the demand fizzled off because all of the torches suddenly disappeared. It made one more tiny rebound and then hadn’t heard anything about it since

 

[Crashnt24]

Reached, I saw the picture. Lol

 

[acro-ed]

Another issue in trying to discuss subtle differences in "similar" corals is that the same coral could look quite different in a different tank for a variety of reasons. As in, a LOT different. So saying, the polyps on the "real" one (generic example) are blue instead of purple, or it gets "pink" tips instead of white, etc. are not reliable, even if you have "comparable" setups/same lights, etc.

Likewise, I have taken "different" corals with "verified lineage" from different shops/promoters and grown them out for a year or more and ended up with literally the "exact" same coral.

Lineage is almost always a marketing gimmick. It is very rare indeed that a true genetic freak specimen comes through that didn't have 1000 other maricultured chunks brought in over the same period. Great example is the way the importers were holding the rainbow tenuis' when the prices were sky high a few years back. I saw a photo from a wholesaler with hundreds of them in the same trough. Now we have multiple named pieces with lineage from different trendy stores and a whole lot of other stores across the country and world have the exact same piece.

You should buy based on the seller's actual colony, as it presently exists. Both for health and vigor reasons, and also to verify, definitively, that you are seeing "exactly" what you are buying. Buying a 0.75" frag from a guy cutting a 2" frag to flip and make a return doesn't really tell either of you what you "have" because the guy he got it from could be totally full of BS too.

Also, don't hate the prices or the marking gimmick/photoshop promoter-guys. If someone is willing to pay it; that's their problem. I'm all for it, unless of course someone is being actually dishonest and not just using regular marketing puffery.

 

[SaltISlife]

That's look like a garden variety torch found at any lfs. I think some of the folks over zealously defending sellers they have no personal or financial connection too are simply justifying their own purchases. I suspect a few of the others are the ones selling this over priced nonsense.

With that said, if one guy wants to sell a $20 frag for $250, and some other guy wants to buy it... have at it!

Yea i basically called him out in his bs.. and he sent me a 100$ refund.. so basically paid 50$ for the torch if you dont count the 50$ to ship it.

So its fine.. torcha locally sells for 100-300$ depending. And its one i dont have. Im sure i can make money on it as it splits.. unfortunatly i cant sell it as a dragon soul.

So now i gatta find a seller who isnt a bullshitter and buy yet another torch. Lol. Oh well.. im not ticked.. it was nice of him to send the 100$ back.. but still its also not nice to be misleading.

 

[SaltISlife]

Another issue in trying to discuss subtle differences in "similar" corals is that the same coral could look quite different in a different tank for a variety of reasons. As in, a LOT different. So saying, the polyps on the "real" one (generic example) are blue instead of purple, or it gets "pink" tips instead of white, etc. are not reliable, even if you have "comparable" setups/same lights, etc.

Likewise, I have taken "different" corals with "verified lineage" from different shops/promoters and grown them out for a year or more and ended up with literally the "exact" same coral.

Lineage is almost always a marketing gimmick. It is very rare indeed that a true genetic freak specimen comes through that didn't have 1000 other maricultured chunks brought in over the same period. Great example is the way the importers were holding the rainbow tenuis' when the prices were sky high a few years back. I saw a photo from a wholesaler with hundreds of them in the same trough. Now we have multiple named pieces with lineage from different trendy stores and a whole lot of other stores across the country and world have the exact same piece.

You should buy based on the seller's actual colony, as it presently exists. Both for health and vigor reasons, and also to verify, definitively, that you are seeing "exactly" what you are buying. Buying a 0.75" frag from a guy cutting a 2" frag to flip and make a return doesn't really tell either of you what you "have" because the guy he got it from could be totally full of BS too.

Also, don't hate the prices or the marking gimmick/photoshop promoter-guys. If someone is willing to pay it; that's their problem. I'm all for it, unless of course someone is being actually dishonest and not just using regular marketing puffery.

I actually 1000% disagree with your last part.

Corals yes can look different under diff lights people have.. but PURPOSELY altering pictures much like Jason fox does actually is lying and very misleading. It should be a crime to do that honestly.

Imagine me selling something anything but photochopping everything on it to make it seem different. Youd be ticked and want your money back.

How is that any different than this.

Look at these two corals. Seem totally different dont they ??

Well they are the same dang coral.. this is the one i bought for 150$... and look at it without misleading filters. It was heavily modified to show all gold.. instead its FRACKING teal blue.. thats utter BS !!!

This person should be barred from selling corals on the forums

 

[Triketra]

I’m not a huge freak about lineage but in many cases it seems as if the color of the original names piece is better than those that don’t have lineage. I notice this a lot with Rastas and Mickey D’s. The originals just seem way brighter. Another example is Todd’s torch. Yeah there’s plenty of bright green torches with blue tips but Todd’s is on another level

If you think Todd’s torch is on another level check out Jeff’s Blue Tip Jade torch! That’s about 3 levels above Todd’s if you ask me love my Jade!

 

[vanpire]

Lineage doesn’t matter that much to me. What I really want is an accurate picture and that it has in in aquaculture for a long time. That way, it will probably look like that in my tank and more likely to survive. Popular Named corals, unless its BS, are likely to be in aquaculture for a while.

 

[zalick]

Wow, lineage? I buy corals for what they look like, not what someone decides to name them.

"Wow, beautiful torch. Is that a dragon soul?"

" Nope, I got it at Petco"

" Oh, nevermind, it's ugly".

And any discussion about lineage meaning healthy is garbage. Pure bred dogs are notorious for having major issues. You just hope the breeders did genetic testing to weed out the worst diseases. The more of a mut the dog is, the healthier it is in general. (That's directly from my wife whose been a vet for 25 years)

If you think a coral looks nice and want to spend $250 on it, then buy it. Same goes for a $20 frag from the LFS. Who cares what it's "marketing" name is.

 

[blstravler]

Lineage is funny to me. I think a lot of people associate it with what the coral will look like for them. I think it’s a better reference point for what it could look like - but it might not in your tank. Many of the big online outfits have a team of staff that take care off their tanks/corals every day - all day - making sure everything is perfect to get those perfect colors. If I but X Coral I understand that it might not look like that after it’s been in my tank for a few months and sometimes they look the same or better.

 

[Matt1997]

I actually 1000% disagree with your last part.

Corals yes can look different under diff lights people have.. but PURPOSELY altering pictures much like Jason fox does actually is lying and very misleading. It should be a crime to do that honestly.

Imagine me selling something anything but photochopping everything on it to make it seem different. Youd be ticked and want your money back.

How is that any different than this.

Look at these two corals. Seem totally different dont they ??

Well they are the same dang coral.. this is the one i bought for 150$... and look at it without misleading filters. It was heavily modified to show all gold.. instead its FRACKING teal blue.. thats utter BS !!!

This person should be barred from selling corals on the forums

Yours looks a little bleached out. Give it time. I’m sure it will look more like the first. I’ve bought a lot of torch corals that under first impression in my tank I was mad about. After a month-2 they start showing their true coloration.

 

[acro-ed]

@SaltISlife ,
I totally appreciate where you’re coming from. I just feel like that bluish hue pic, while not an accurate representation of what it would look like under reasonably utilized spectrum, it may be a “real” pic taken under extreme blue led. I feel like those types of pics are used regularly and aren’t outright lying as to what they are showing. It’s just not what it would realistically look like in most people’s tank.

I took the same pic and retouched it in literally 1 min where I tried to artificially remove the blue hue on the rocks and then exaggerated the tones of the coral. Using a pic like this to sell it would be, in my opinion, dishonest.

I agree there are popular vendors who walk a fine line with this, and some who indeed do cross that line.

 

[Burfodus]

This thread is barely about the actual question. Most of it is just people complaining about people being dishonest which is totally separate to this topic. If someone ripped you off with bad photography or lies about true linage you simply never shop with them again.

Linage shows a buyer what a frag is capable of becoming. So you don't need to guess from a small frag what the colony will look like. It proved value in the coral allowing a buyer to know its heritage and how many other reefers have had succes with it and how long it's been aquacultured for. Walt Disney is a perfect example, almost all reefers can now successfully grow this sps and make it beautiful due to the years of aquacultured generations adapting to captivity and extensive knowledge of the preferred conditions to make it beautiful. Corals can easily transform in new conditions so renaming it a new version simply ties the new coloration to the original lineage. It's the buyers gamble if the coral will hold the new colours or not, and it will probably be related to how many generations have been grown under this new colour. Again, if it holds you shop with them again, if it transforms back to your other pink caddy or whatever then you don't. Another thing that separates the good and bad fragers apart and the buyer has the ultimate choice.

Delete all comments on being ripped off buy a dishonest seller as the same could happen for any purchase regardless of lineage protocol.

 

[brahm]

Originally lineage was a way for us to know what a coral could look like, back in the days acro kept in 10k would look very different then 20k and at most frag swaps buying stuff in person (under sunlight) the corals were well brown. I would know that if I bought ‘Garf bonsai’ or ‘purple monster’ I was getting a specific coral that ‘could’ look a specific way under the right conditions. The prices started to go up as demand for said corals was greater than the ability to grow at the time, websites would have waiting lists for frags. Long story short it used to be a useful tool for us reefers by us reefers to say this is coral X from person Y . Now, well the other posts outline what it’s become well enough. Outside of a couple pieces I couldn’t care less. However over the years I’ve gotten at least a dozen variations of leng sy cap, and garf bonsai that were just tri color validas and green purple rim caps that may have had the color but not the growth patterns and only a few that did.