Just wanted to let y'all know I'm evil now.

[ichthyogeek]

[This post is satire. THIS POST IS SATIRE. This post is satire. This post is satire.]

Y'know, I've tried so hard up till now to be good. Breed fish to reduce overwhelming pressures on fishing stocks. Provide my intelligence free of charge to the curious smart reefers I know y'all are. Give advice, recommend books to read, tell people about awesome stuff and ask stupid questions; all things that good me has done. But, I guess it's time to turn (or rot) a new leaf. I'M EVIL NOW Y'ALL.

...[This post is satire. THIS POST IS SATIRE. This post is satire. This post is satire.]...

But...why am I evil? Is it my charming good looks? Is it my big brain attitude? If you guessed purchasing decision, then you've got it spot on! That's right folks, I'm evil BECAUSE I BOUGHT A WILD CAUGHT BANGGAI CARDINALFISH A WHILE BACK. cue thunder and screams of the departed. Yup, you heard it here second. I made a monetary decision, and now to the fake social justice warriors of the reefing forum, and especially the banggai cardinalfish police, I am officially an evil person. Since, y'know, they're more focused on proving a point than on actually getting people to change their minds and make ethical decisions, and would rather shame people and put words in their mouth (I don't think they paid attention to the lesson in class when it got taught that to effectively change a person's mind, it's easier to do that with emotion than with logic)...

...[This post is satire. THIS POST IS SATIRE. This post is satire. This post is satire.]...

I will now proceed to go into every thread that has ever mentioned banggai cardinalfish, and tell them "I'm saving the coral reefs by buying wild caught fish banggai cardinalfish!" I even have the appropriate kukuku corgi (his name is waffles) and mwahahahamster (both of which are evilly adorable) lined up when I text.

...[This post is satire. THIS POST IS SATIRE. This post is satire. This post is satire.]...

Man, being evil is so easy. I just have to click away at all the buttons that say "wild caught banggai cardinalfish" and proceed to exterminate a species according to some people on this forum by buying the fish and providing a little bit of extra income towards fishermen in Indonesia. And to think that I could have stayed not evil and good if people had taken the time to learn the entire situation and realize that buying wild caught BCs isn't as evil as they thought....

...[This post is satire. THIS POST IS SATIRE. This post is satire. This post is satire.]...

Oh, and one last time for the people in the back: I AM EVILLY HELPING TO SAVE THE CORAL REEFS BY BUYING WILD CAUGHT BANGGAI CARDINALFISH BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT EVIL PEOPLE DO!!!!! I SHALL PROCEED TO BUY ALL THE FISH FROM THE BANGGAI ISLANDS, AND PUT THEM IN A BOX. AND THEN PUT THAT BOX IN ANOTHER BOX. AND THEN I'LL MAIL THAT BOX TO MYSELF. AND WHEN THAT BOX ARRIVES?!?!?! I'LL SMASH IT WITH A HAMMER! MWAHAHAHAHAHA. IT'S BRILLIANT BRILLIANT BRILLIANT I TELL YOU!!!!! Oh wait...maybe that's Prince Kuzco...oh well, if it works for a flea llama person, it should work for fish.

 

[ichthyogeek]

Ok not satire time: Can we not shame people for buying wild caught banggai cardinalfish and nicely tell them why they should buy captive bred over wild caught? The Tang Police are awful enough, can we not have banggai cardinalfish police? I don't really want to deal with snooty condescending people in this forum. I've had enough experiences with those people offline and in other forums.

 

[sas226]

Depends on your definition of snooty and condescending. If someone suggests that maybe you look at Captive Bred instead of wild caught that's literally an endangered species. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banggai_cardinalfish. I don't think that's exactly a bad thing. They're never coming from a bad place. Some people can be overbearing about it but they aren't wrong. If there's a captive bred option why in creation would anyone buy an endangered wild caught one? The price difference is rarely different than a few bucks.

 

[ichthyogeek]

Depends on your definition of snooty and condescending. If someone suggests that maybe you look at Captive Bred instead of wild caught that's literally an endangered species. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banggai_cardinalfish. I don't think that's exactly a bad thing. They're never coming from a bad place. Some people can be overbearing about it but they aren't wrong. If there's a captive bred option why in creation would anyone buy an endangered wild caught one? The price difference is rarely different than a few bucks.

I have nothing against somebody advising me to buy captive bred (heck, I would prefer to buy captive bred fish most of the time). But when the decision was carried out months ago, and they start breaking out the "I am higher than thou and therefore morally better, bow before me peasant" is usually when I call it on the person having a stick up their butt.

Also, a slight pushback...my LFS charges double the price for CB BCs ($30 for WC, $60 for CB). I guess my area is part of that "rare area" haha.

 

[sas226]

I have nothing against somebody advising me to buy captive bred (heck, I would prefer to buy captive bred fish most of the time). But when the decision was carried out months ago, and they start breaking out the "I am higher than thou and therefore morally better, bow before me peasant" is usually when I call it on the person having a stick up their butt.

Also, a slight pushback...my LFS charges double the price for CB BCs ($30 for WC, $60 for CB). I guess my area is part of that "rare area" haha.

Even carrying WC BC is .. cruddy, IMO. Charging double for CB is just ridiculous.

 

[ichthyogeek]

Even carrying WC BC is .. cruddy, IMO. Charging double for CB is just ridiculous.

It's....an economics thing from what I understand. Still cruddy though. Some areas just don't get why a BC should be CB. And then, the WC fish get hauled in for significantly cheaper than CB, so the retailer has to either make a decision to sell more fish as WC, or sell less fish as CB. Or that option might not be available based off of who the supplier for the retailer is. And then the consumer is stuck between paying more money (which, some people just don't have), or doing the right thing. It's easy in theory, and hard to do in practice.

And that doesn't even take into account the "support your small business/LFS" mindset that's also perpetuated through the hobby. Like...cheap WC BCs while supporting LFS? Or support large companies like LA which sell expensive CB BCs and don't include shipping?

 

[cvrle1]

Or maybe you just took their advice and what they were saying wrong way? There are way too many people who get their feelings hurt by truth these days. instead of focusing on what the message is, they focus on how that message is shared, and more often than not think they are being attacked or whatever when that is not the case. I will say just add this: Did you research fish before you bought it, and did you know they are on endangered list? If you did and you still ended up buying it because its a bit cheaper, then sorry to say but you are who you say you are for real.

 

[GillMeister]

Wait a minute. Is this satire?

 

[ichthyogeek]

Or maybe you just took their advice and what they were saying wrong way? There are way too many people who get their feelings hurt by truth these days. instead of focusing on what the message is, they focus on how that message is shared, and more often than not think they are being attacked or whatever when that is not the case. I will say just add this: Did you research fish before you bought it, and did you know they are on endangered list? If you did and you still ended up buying it because its a bit cheaper, then sorry to say but you are who you say you are for real.

Aaaaaaaand this is why I hate the Banggai Cardinalfish police. Always willing to judge and point questions first, and then claim the moral high ground. All without reading and getting to know things. See: My statement that I was evil now. See: statement regarding actually convincing people of doing the right thing. I'm not going to fight you. People like you are going to say I'm evil regardless, sooooooo cue thunder and screams of the departed.

Wait a minute. Is this satire?

Hard to express tone in text, so I'm assuming this is a serious request. The first post? Absolutely positively yes. I love using satire wonderful coping strategy. The whole part about banggai cardinalfish police being toxic human beings? Nope. The parts about why you should buy banggai cardinalfish as captive bred fish and not wild caught fish? Also not satire.

Part of it is about getting one's point across in a way that actually convinces people to do things their way. It's an incredible technique when used for good.

 

[sas226]

I don't think it's fair to compare advocating for the avoidance of an endangered species as an aquarium fish to say the tang police. While both are well intentioned, the situation is different... for now. The B Cardinal wild population is still declining despite advocacy and the readily available Captive bred ones. There is literally no excuse that's valid as to why you can't get a captive bred one. Support LFS? Buy some salt, it'll cost the same. It's cheaper? That's a non-answer, and should never be considered, at least in my opinion.

Calling someone the "Cardinal police", it's not meant to be nice thing. It's meant to be insulting. I'm of the opinion that when an option, the captive-bred, aqua-cultured route should be taken. I just can't go with a post that meant as a slight towards people who are just trying to fix a messed up situation and calling them toxic. That's ridiculous.

 

[ichthyogeek]

I don't think it's fair to compare advocating for the avoidance of an endangered species as an aquarium fish to say the tang police. While both are well intentioned, the situation is different... for now. The B Cardinal wild population is still declining despite advocacy and the readily available Captive bred ones. There is literally no excuse that's valid as to why you can't get a captive bred one. Support LFS? Buy some salt, it'll cost the same. It's cheaper? That's a non-answer, and should never be considered, at least in my opinion.

Calling someone the "Cardinal police", it's not meant to be nice thing. It's meant to be insulting. I'm of the opinion that when an option, the captive-bred, aqua-cultured route should be taken. I just can't go with a post that meant as a slight towards people who are just trying to fix a messed up situation and calling them toxic. That's ridiculous.

So...there's a difference between advocating, and being part of the banggai cardinal cops. Advocating involves educating. It involves putting yourself into another person's shoes and utilizing empathy. It means understanding a lot of the issues at stake. And then getting people to see and also emulate your viewpoint. Inducing fear, shame, and other negative emotions while browbeating people into submission is usually one of the best ways to get them to be unhappy with your viewpoint.

I am all for advocating. I am not for toxicity. If somebody's willing to help and educate, then I am for that. But shaming somebody isn't going to help the issues. Cardinal police don't advocate. They shame. They say "you should have known better," and do nothing to help issues that rise up.

I've been seeing a lot of posts about Canadian members not being able to get fish meds where they are. I would much rather talk to them about how they can save one of their sick fish using the tank transfer and other disease reduction/removal methods, rather than say "oh, well you should have had X, Y, Z medicines in the first place" and do nothing.

 

[gpd124]

I think it is all in approach. Unfortunately, there are some people who attack issues with a hard-line stance; meanwhile others come at things with a softer approach. Normally, the more aggressive the approach, the more likely the person will dig in on their position (human nature). Then it ends up being more about the line in the sand than the actual issue itself (justifying their view or a decision made).

Personally, I have always felt it best to engage in a respectful conversation, focused on appealing to someone’s sense of logic (what is right/wrong, etc).

 

[TvanB1]

I bought a pair of WC A. percula last week. Do I feel bad? No, but actually yes. I feel bad that they were caught in the first place but I feel that way about all my fish lol.
I intend to breed them once they get around to laying eggs.
Many of the areas that these endangered fish are caught have very little to no regulations on collection. That or they are disregarded because money > an entire ecosystem.
I’ve been to a number of wholesale facilities and whatever is cheapest gets bought out first. Until CB Bangaiis are cheaper than wild caught, I think stores will continue to stock them.
But hey, Cardinals are pretty easy to breed so maybe you can get a captive bred partner for the one you own now and start breeding them.

 

[TvanB1]

Asking fish stores to stop stocking endangered fish or ones that rarely acclimate to captivity will unfortunately fall on deaf ears.

 

[Bfragale]

My motto: “live and let live” so each to his own. I’ve learned not to worry about what I can’t control. And I don’t see any sense in beating people up about things out of my control. I would rather mind my own business and do what I think is best for ME. So happy reefing- no negativity!

 

[robbyg]

Asking fish stores to stop stocking endangered fish or ones that rarely acclimate to captivity will unfortunately fall on deaf ears.

Unfortunately that is so true!
It will only stop when governments in certain islands decide to put a ban on the trade. Then everyone will get up in arms. Its sad that the almighty dollar drives industries instead of common sense.

As for wild caught fish that are endangered I think there is a place for it. If we were a more logical society we would have a license system in place that allowed people who have the skills and equipment to get a license and import a limited amount. The main benefit of this would be an increase in numbers that could be sold and half probably used to restock the wild population and it would create greater genetic diversity in that species.

 

[RobB'z Reef]

Really, no one has gone here yet?

 

[KrisReef]

I didn't know these fish were listed as endangered. I took a stroll around the internets and found reports indicating the B. Cardinal has a native home range of 46 Sq miles ((5,500 km2) if I got the figures right?) and has been successfully introduced at other locations. Scientists (?) or someone pretending to be one estimated the wild population to contain 2.4 million individuals. 2,400,000! Whew! The population is hammered by the fish trade. The wild caught-sold data is reported way over 500,000-700,000 fish each year for many years since 1990's, or something like that. They have been reported to have been locally extirpated at some locations, but how come they still exist in the wild makes no sense based upon the export numbers and population size estimate? These should have beed extinct years ago if they were catching and exporting <10-20% of the total population each year?

Another wonder is; how come Indonesia didn't allow these endangered fish to be banned by CITIES listing when that was proposed? They allowed coral limits and later they shut that show down for awhile? None of this population and catch data makes any sense, nor the response from the Indo government.

What we can know is that the OP is evil for sure for buying a fish at the LFS. At least even he agrees on that point.
With that,
Thanks for posting, @ichthyogeek- you evil beast! I learnt something as a result.

Next Ima gonna go google "satire". Never heard of that fish before, either.

 

[Opus]

I didn't know these fish were listed as endangered. I took a stroll around the internets and found reports indicating the B. Cardinal has a native home range of 46 Sq miles ((5,500 km2) if I got the figures right?) and has been successfully introduced at other locations. Scientists (?) or someone pretending to be one estimated the wild population to contain 2.4 million individuals. 2,400,000! Whew! The population is hammered by the fish trade. The wild caught-sold data is reported way over 500,000-700,000 fish each year for many years since 1990's, or something like that. They have been reported to have been locally extirpated at some locations, but how come they still exist in the wild makes no sense based upon the export numbers and population size estimate? These should have beed extinct years ago if they were catching and exporting <10-20% of the total population each year?

Another wonder is; how come Indonesia didn't allow these endangered fish to be banned by CITIES listing when that was proposed? They allowed coral limits and later they shut that show down for awhile? None of this population and catch data makes any sense, nor the response from the Indo government.

What we can know is that the OP is evil for sure for buying a fish at the LFS. At least even he agrees on that point.
With that,
Thanks for posting, @ichthyogeek- you evil beast! I learnt something as a result.

Next Ima gonna go google "satire". Never heard of that fish before, either.

It is really confusing. Many years ago there was actually a forum group devoted to how they were on the verge of extinction. I can't remember if it was on here or RC. I had a few discussions with the owner of my favorite lfs at the time and he said all his contacts from the region said they had no idea where the numbers were coming from. The people publishing the numbers made it sound like there were no fish to be found and they said they were everywhere, there were literally millions of them. You just don't know who to believe. The group didn't seem to last that long and soon disappeared. I personally never really thought much about it after that since I don't care for the fish and had no desire to own one.

 

[robbyg]

It is really confusing. Many years ago there was actually a forum group devoted to how they were on the verge of extinction. I can't remember if it was on here or RC. I had a few discussions with the owner of my favorite lfs at the time and he said all his contacts from the region said they had no idea where the numbers were coming from. The people publishing the numbers made it sound like there were no fish to be found and they said they were everywhere, there were literally millions of them. You just don't know who to believe. The group didn't seem to last that long and soon disappeared. I personally never really thought much about it after that since I don't care for the fish and had no desire to own one.

I have no data to back this up but from personal observations of stories involving endangered species and the consensus that developed decades later. It always seems like the person or group that is saying something is not endangered is typically saying so with no facts or is just out right lying to protect an industry that may be affected directly or indirectly by any new regulations.