Kole Tang, small patch of discoloration, ID/Treatment?

[Glasswalker]

Ok a few more observations:

He seems more lively after the dip

Much of the skin has come off from either the dip or the agitation. Still some in a couple spots though, mostly around the face/eyes/mouth. But not nearly as much as last pics.

He is spending his time near the powerhead, not really "Swimming into it" but occasionally he's doing that for a second or so. This may be normal behavior though (he did it occasionally before, as do some of my other fish, but only for a few seconds at a time). Either way he's hanging around the powerhead a lot. That said, his "sleeping spot" was under the rock that used to be in that area (it had a shaded overhang, he went to to hide if he was startled, and sleeping at night).

Breathing is still very rapid right now.

Here are pics:

This one is in the FW dip, you can see a red line near his fin, right near the gil. That was only obvious in the FW dip. Also you can see some of the fin discoloration on his lower fin. Kind of "patchy"


Here is a pic back in the QT, pic is bad, unfortunately some of the detritus stirred up is still settling, and phone was having a hard time focusing. Can see discoloration in the tail as well, seems lighter brown colored on tips of the tail.


Thoughts? Anything else I should do ASAP?
Should I be picking up RRR to treat?

Thanks again for your help. I really want to save this little guy.

 

[Brew12]

I'm torn between brook and velvet. And unfortunately they require different treatments. I would try to pick up the meds to treat both if possible.

 

[melypr1985]

I'm leaning heavily toward velvet. I would start with the treatment outlined here in this link Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) and soon.

 

[drawman]

Agreed if it were me I would pick up Rally and do a bath followed by copper.

 

[4FordFamily]

I'm leaning heavily toward velvet. I would start with the treatment outlined here in this link Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) and soon.

X2 the powerhead comment especially with other fish doing so, and the overall appearance and the velvety appearance of what is coming off (although not as common as the name would indicate it is icing on the cake). Mel, if you remember my hidden velvet story, it was also a bristletooth tang, (my chevron) that looked and acted like this. The classic velvet symptom was much like this looks and describes. I've never had any tang affected by brook, not saying it's not possible but that also leans me to velvet as well.

Personally I would get this fish in copper (chelated such as coppersafe or copper power) asap and buy antibiotics because secondary infection is almost guaranteed if he pulls through, but honestly it may already be too late. Increase this over two days, 1/4 full dose every 6 hours, with at least one more FW dip per day. Thoughts @melypr1985 and @Humblefish?

 

[4FordFamily]

@Brew12 I was about to tag you also but I see you already chimed in lol

 

[melypr1985]

X2 the powerhead comment especially with other fish doing so, and the overall appearance and the velvety appearance of what is coming off (although not as common as the name would indicate it is icing on the cake). Mel, if you remember my hidden velvet story, it was also a bristletooth tang, (my chevron) that looked and acted like this. The classic velvet symptom was much like this looks and describes. I've never had any tang affected by brook, not saying it's not possible but that also leans me to velvet as well.

Personally I would get this fish in copper (chelated such as coppersafe or copper power) asap and buy antibiotics because secondary infection is almost guaranteed if he pulls through, but honestly it may already be too late. Increase this over two days, 1/4 full dose every 6 hours, with at least one more FW dip per day. Thoughts @melypr1985 and @Humblefish?

agree 100%. I do remember that and it's part of what's leaning me toward velvet.

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12 I was about to tag you also but I see you already chimed in lol

I'm leaving this to the real experts but I think you gave great advice.
At some point you need to try treating something and hope you guess right. Waiting for positive ID gives the fish no chance when symptoms are this obscure imo

 

[Glasswalker]

Sorry had this partially typed but apparently didn't hit post...

Ok he's definitely not swimming into the powerhead, he's just hanging around in that general vicinity.

He hasn't done that in a bit. We had to head out to hit LFS before close, so we grabbed a hospital tank setup and ruby reef rally. Have copper and kanaplex at home.

Will use that to start treatment.

Also to clarify when I said the other fish do this, I mean in the display, this fish has never been in the display. The fish in the display have been in there for months with no issues, they just occasionally swim into the current from the return flow.

He is still swimming but slowly, much more active than he was this morning.

Sorry still out, on way home soon, hard to post from phone.

 

[Glasswalker]

Hey so had a chance to read through thread.

So I have both copper and RRR now, and a 10g hospital tank with all the fixings...

I was thinking I'd just dose the RRR into the hospital tank directly, but now it seems RRR treatment first then copper immediately is preferred due to leaning to velvet. In that case can I dose both? Or do I need to do a bath in RRR followed by dosing copper?

If so what exactly is the protocol? RRR bath at strength indicated by directions for 90min followed by transfer to clean hospital running what dosage of copper? I have seachem brand of copper can't remember exact name. And I ramp copper up?

Also which antibiotics should I have on hand and at which point should I involve them?

Anything else I need to be aware of (oxygenation, feeding oddities, etc)

 

[melypr1985]

Or do I need to do a bath in RRR followed by dosing copper?

Bath first, then into the QT and start copper.

If so what exactly is the protocol? RRR bath at strength indicated by directions for 90min followed by transfer to clean hospital running what dosage of copper? I have seachem brand of copper can't remember exact name. And I ramp copper up?

You'll want to ramp the copper up to therapeutic levels within 24 hours. Calculate the total amount of copper it will take to get your QT up to .5ppm (assuming cupramine). Divide that by, say, 4... then dose that every 6 or so hours into the QT, testing about 30 minutes after each dose.

Also which antibiotics should I have on hand and at which point should I involve them?

You said you have kanaplex? That should be fine. You'll want to watch for infection which is a big problem with velvet. If that happens, then we will dose the kanaplex, but not before. If you think he's developing an infection get a good picture and post it here. we can help determine if it's truly and infection and if the kanaplex is enough to treat it.

 

[drawman]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

Read the second post here. It says not to mix Acriflavine with any other chemicals (copper). I would do a bath and then copper next.

 

[Glasswalker]

Ok, well thanks again for all your help. Got home and headed downstairs where the QT is to setup the RRR Bath while we stood up the Hospital Tank, and he didn't make it. He's still on the bottom of tank, not moving, no gill movement at all.



I'm not having a lot of luck at all with Kole tangs

He seemed so healthy and active when we got him, and was good for 2 full weeks, then that "mark" appeared, and he seemed fine for a bit after that, and now by the time symptoms are obvious again within 12 hours he is dead...

Anyway, I guess looking on the positive side, at least we've learned even more, have more treatment options on-hand, and now have a full hospital setup...

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[melypr1985]

Ok, well thanks again for all your help. Got home and headed downstairs where the QT is to setup the RRR Bath while we stood up the Hospital Tank, and he didn't make it. He's still on the bottom of tank, not moving, no gill movement at all.



I'm not having a lot of luck at all with Kole tangs

He seemed so healthy and active when we got him, and was good for 2 full weeks, then that "mark" appeared, and he seemed fine for a bit after that, and now by the time symptoms are obvious again within 12 hours he is dead...

Anyway, I guess looking on the positive side, at least we've learned even more, have more treatment options on-hand, and now have a full hospital setup...

Thanks again for all your help.

I'm sorry for your loss

 

[4FordFamily]

Ok, well thanks again for all your help. Got home and headed downstairs where the QT is to setup the RRR Bath while we stood up the Hospital Tank, and he didn't make it. He's still on the bottom of tank, not moving, no gill movement at all.



I'm not having a lot of luck at all with Kole tangs

He seemed so healthy and active when we got him, and was good for 2 full weeks, then that "mark" appeared, and he seemed fine for a bit after that, and now by the time symptoms are obvious again within 12 hours he is dead...

Anyway, I guess looking on the positive side, at least we've learned even more, have more treatment options on-hand, and now have a full hospital setup...

Thanks again for all your help.

How fast this hit and the timeline still has me thinking velvet... be weary of that qt.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[Glasswalker]

I'm sorry for your loss

Thank you, I think it will be a little while before we're prepared to attempt another tang
But thanks for your help, each time we go through this, even though it's not a happy experience, we learn more, and gain more tools/ability to deal with the next thing.

How fast this hit and the timeline still has me thinking velvet... be weary of that qt.

Sorry for your loss.

Thanks, yes we've already decided we'll be nuking that tank again. We're going to strip it down, sterilise it, kill the rock (and store it for a future project, I think no more big live rocks in our QT for us). And totally clean/sanitise the filtration/etc.

So yes, we'll be nuking it. Now that we have the smaller hospital tank I think we'll be trying to develop a much more robust protocol for onboarding new fish.
eg:
- New fish goes in hospital, and is manditory treated with whatever treatment protocols: A) address common illnesses in order of priority B) are safe to treat blindly.
- Once treatment cycles have completed, and fish has been observed for some time, gets moved to larger QT system to ride out a full 76 day QT cycle
- Finally upon successfully passing the above, gets moved to DT...

Anyone have any links I can read up on treatments that are safe to "blind treat" like that? Can I just run copper to be sure anyway (and would that have helped in this case?) how about things like the kanaplex/metroplex combo, that seems a fairly common recommendation as a broad spectrum antibiotic method? Can that be run safely?

Any other protocols that can be used (minimum days between treatments, or wait once first adding before treating to avoid over-stressing, etc).

Anyway, just trying to learn and adapt to hopefully improve our process and decrease these type of situations (as much as possible, realize it's an unfortunate reality of the hobby).

Thanks again everyone for your help.

 

[Brew12]

I'm sorry the little guy didn't make it. I think you are on the right path for your future acquisitions.

I have treated everything that has gone into my tank using Prazipro and Coppersafe. That has worked very well for me. I've only gone with easier species to care for at this point and have purposely not picked up any of the more copper sensitive ones.

@melypr1985 just put together this fantastic information that will help guide you to what fish respond best to which QT protocol. I highly recommend reviewing it when you are ready to try again.
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.191/

 

[drawman]

Keep your head up and sorry for your loss! The speed with which he went downhill makes me think Velvet is the culprit as well.

Your outlook is right from the positive side you're learning more on how to QT and look for diseases. Unfortunately it's something every one of us has had to learn and it seems like diseases such as Velvet are becoming more and more prevalent.

I think the approach of a FW dip (1. for fluke confirmation 2. to help shed some potential ich/velvet parasites), followed by an Acriflavine bath, followed by 30 days in copper is good to use prophylactically for many incoming fish. Certainly every fish is different and some alternatives (ie chloroquine phosphate) may need to be employed. This is especially useful for those with a busy schedule who may miss the early signs of Velvet. Prazipro could be done as well at some point during this course (before or after copper) even if flukes aren't confirmed as it is relatively safe.

Alternatively, when you get a new fish make sure it is eating well for a couple of days then hit it with Prazipro for flukes. Then afterward you can go for copper.

There are some wonderful stickies in the Fish Disease and Treatment Forum and they are very easy reads!