Korallen-Zucht additives, what’s actually in them?

[Wunderpus]

All,
Would anyone in the community be interested in putting together a testing program where we send in products, such as the KZ line, for testing to see what’s actually in them? I think this would be very helpful to folks like myself that want to dose trace elements; and use additives such as KZ stuff (Acropower comes to mind, too). However, the concern on my end is that some of these products contain trace elements, at unknown levels, and may cause a bolus dose of certain elements.... It would be very helpful for us to actually know what’s in these products, so we can use them more intelligently.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I've been using ZeoVit additives for many times and I've been planning to do exactly what you suggested. In fact, I may be sending out a sample on Monday to ATI. My plan is to test a different product with the RO/DI tube that ATI supplies. At the moment, I'm thinking of adding 2 drops to 500ml RO/DI and work extrapolations from that. I will probably start with MacroElements.
Once I got a few analyzed I was going to start a thread....but I'm all for others "chipping in!"

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have the full line and sometimes I swear its booze from the smaell. These additives are chemically engineered by german scientists and DO work. Acropower is just as good as a supplement as KZ acro. I highly recommend the KZ elementset (1-2-3-4) which is great for color and stamina of the corals. . . both LPS and SPS

 

[burningmime]

I'm curious about Vibrant. There are reports on here that it contains an algaecide, and that it can hurt nems, urchins, and certain fish types. OTOH, it certainly works. I'd contribute to that.

 

[Wunderpus]

I've been using ZeoVit additives for many times and I've been planning to do exactly what you suggested. In fact, I may be sending out a sample on Monday to ATI. My plan is to test a different product with the RO/DI tube that ATI supplies. At the moment, I'm thinking of adding 2 drops to 500ml RO/DI and work extrapolations from that. I will probably start with MacroElements.
Once I got a few analyzed I was going to start a thread....but I'm all for others "chipping in!"

I am interested to chip in, if you'd like! What are they charging per test? I'd like to test Pohls Extra, Macro Elements and Acroglow. The 4 color system is pretty transparent, so I don't see a huge need to test those...

I emailed ICP-Analysis.com about it... They got back to me saying the didn't have a reference for it, but it can be done. I asked what needed to be done, and haven't heard back...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just to clarify what can and cannot be detected, you cannot identify any organic compounds by ICP (e.g., acropower) or bacteria (vibrant).

Also, while you can detect inorganic elements, you cannot determine what chemical form they are in. Maybe you can guess a likely form, but you will not have a duplicate recipe, even for inorganic trace elements. What oxidation state? What chelation by organics (if any). Nope, cannot determine either of those.

 

[Wunderpus]

Just to clarify what can and cannot be detected, you cannot identify any organic compounds by ICP (e.g., acropower) or bacteria (vibrant).

Also, while you can detect inorganic elements, you cannot determine what chemical form they are in. Maybe you can guess a likely form, but you will not have a duplicate recipe, even for inorganic trace elements. What oxidation state? What chelation by organics (if any). Nope, cannot determine either of those.

Understood, thank you for your response.

With that, what would be a good way to test these products for the elements they contain? There certainly has to be a way.... Would mass spectrometry work? Or, would that be tough as we'd need reference materials for all of the elements? Sorry, this is not my area of expertise, but I believe it could be very helpful for us to know which elements we're adding to our tanks almost blindly...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Understood, thank you for your response.

With that, what would be a good way to test these products for the elements they contain? There certainly has to be a way.... Would mass spectrometry work? Or, would that be tough as we'd need reference materials for all of the elements? Sorry, this is not my area of expertise, but I believe it could be very helpful for us to know which elements we're adding to our tanks almost blindly...

It would be way too expensive to complicated to try to figure out fine details, IMO. If all you want to know is the inorganic elements to avoid duplication between recipes, ICP can help with that, though you would have to decide how much of something was too much. It would not allow you to du0licate the recipe.

For organics such as acropower, certainly there are many methods for identifying and quantifying amino acids in a mixture. It seems hardly worthwhile, however, since it may not matter that much.

 

[burningmime]

Don't want to hijack the topic, but wondering whether ICP can confirm this?

Use of Vibrant

Was curious how many people use Vibrant in their tank. I was thinking about using it and wanted to know some pros and cons you have experienced with it.

www.reef2reef.com

There is a million threads on this. We had an assay done locally - it is an algaecide, regardless of what UWC says. I won't say which one since they deserve the ability to keep their products a secret even if they lie about what is in them.

It will kill all kinds of algae - not just the ones that you don't like. Some swear by it whereas some say that it has harmed their tanks. You will get testimonials all over the map. Read up and then decide for yourself - take your time and be diligent with your research.

One thing that I can tell you for sure is that CUC that eats algae that has been dosed with vibrant (or other algaecides) can die. Had a friend who lost 20 urchins when he started to dose and there was plenty of algae left still... nobody loses 20 urchins in a few days to natural causes.

There is some carbon in there too. No bacteria.

 

[Reefman71]

I use the 4 part system and have for years. Mainly LPS and Zoas. My ICP usually scores 90% or above. Not sure what’s all in it but it really works well for me I just wish it wasn’t so expensive

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Don't want to hijack the topic, but wondering whether ICP can confirm this?

Use of Vibrant

Was curious how many people use Vibrant in their tank. I was thinking about using it and wanted to know some pros and cons you have experienced with it.

www.reef2reef.com

Not sure I believe those assertions, but many/most algaecides are organic compounds that will not be identified by icp.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I am interested to chip in, if you'd like! What are they charging per test? I'd like to test Pohls Extra, Macro Elements and Acroglow. The 4 color system is pretty transparent, so I don't see a huge need to test those...

I emailed ICP-Analysis.com about it... They got back to me saying the didn't have a reference for it, but it can be done. I asked what needed to be done, and haven't heard back...

I would suggest using ATI. They do a free analysis on RO/DI water so you can just add some of the ZeoVit additive to the RO/DI. The main sample would be your tank of course. So every time I send out a sample for my tank I will include a test of a ZeoVit additive.

I sent a sample today in fact. For the RO/DI, I put 2 drops of Pohls Xtra in 500ml of water. After shaking it and waiting 24 hrs, I filled the 15 ml RO/DI tube.

I want to test MacroElements, Coral Vitalizer, B-Balance, K-Balance and probably some others as well. Of course some of these products probably have nutrients in them that can't be detected with ICP but we should be able to figure out the elements.

 

[Wunderpus]

I would suggest using ATI. They do a free analysis on RO/DI water so you can just add some of the ZeoVit additive to the RO/DI. The main sample would be your tank of course. So every time I send out a sample for my tank I will include a test of a ZeoVit additive.

I sent a sample today in fact. For the RO/DI, I put 2 drops of Pohls Xtra in 500ml of water. After shaking it and waiting 24 hrs, I filled the 15 ml RO/DI tube.

I want to test MacroElements, Coral Vitalizer, B-Balance, K-Balance and probably some others as well. Of course some of these products probably have nutrients in them that can't be detected with ICP but we should be able to figure out the elements.

Okay, I will do that... Can we try to remember to keep this thread alive with results?

Regarding Coral Vitalizer, I am personally a bit uninterested in this one as it's likely just a "food" or amino acids of some type. I also worry it'll spoil en route to the testing facility with the organics. B-Balance may be similar as I believe it's a bacterial additive such as Bio-Mate or ZeoBak..

I'm thinking Pohls Xtra (which you're doing), Pohl's Xtra Special, MacroElements and AcroGlow may be the most useful at this time? I can do Acro or Xtra Special next as I have both on hand...

 

[Wunderpus]

I would suggest using ATI. They do a free analysis on RO/DI water so you can just add some of the ZeoVit additive to the RO/DI. The main sample would be your tank of course. So every time I send out a sample for my tank I will include a test of a ZeoVit additive.

I sent a sample today in fact. For the RO/DI, I put 2 drops of Pohls Xtra in 500ml of water. After shaking it and waiting 24 hrs, I filled the 15 ml RO/DI tube.

I want to test MacroElements, Coral Vitalizer, B-Balance, K-Balance and probably some others as well. Of course some of these products probably have nutrients in them that can't be detected with ICP but we should be able to figure out the elements.

Any update here? I'm very interested in your results... I'm wondering if I should dilute the additives 1000:1 with RODI and send them in? That should be diluted enough to read in their range, but unlikely to be too diluted... Thoughts?

 

[Dr. Jim]

Any update here? I'm very interested in your results... I'm wondering if I should dilute the additives 1000:1 with RODI and send them in? That should be diluted enough to read in their range, but unlikely to be too diluted... Thoughts?

I'm expecting my results any day now..... and I will let you know how my dilution worked out.

However....and I hope nobody gets mad about this..... but after giving more thought to this thread, I've decided that it may not be morally correct for me to participate in this venture. Although I am not happy about ZeoVit not listing ingredients, it is there choice to keep them secret and it isn't right for me to interfere with their wishes. I've communicated with the Pohl's in the past, respect what they have accomplished, and have decided to submit to their secrecy. This may not stop me from personally testing their products for my benefit, but I don't feel right about publishing my findings. Hopefully everyone can respect my position on this.

 

[Superlightman]

Update?

 

[Miami Reef]

Update?

I tested zeostart 3 and there wasn’t sucrose, glucose, or alcohol (it wasn’t flammable).

I’m not sure what any of the zeovit products contain.

 

[Reefman71]

I used the KZ for over five years. Religiously. Great results with the 4 part. I switched to Tropic Marin A and K same results for a fraction of the price. KZ IS OVERPRICED AND OVERRATED. My ATI test kits all scored the same if not better with Tropic Marin. My opinion

 

[vetteguy53081]

Ten years with KZ and even at trade shows, they refuse to disclose ingredients but their products are excellent

 

[Reefman71]

Manganese is the only element I never could get out of KZ. I still have to dose it with A&K. The price difference is why I switched obviously. A&K is the same thing as the KZ 4 part.