Korallen-Zucht T5 Bulb "Great Barrier Turquoise"

[Erasmus Crowley]

If you've been watching BRS videos on YouTube lately, you'll likely remember hearing about peridinin quite a lot.

Well, after I watched those videos I started digging on the internet looking for more information about the peridinin-chlorophyll-protein complex. Long story made waaaay too short than it should be; peridinin allows photosynthetic organisms to harvest cyan and green light to use them for energy. Granted, I didn't understand a lot of what I read, but I read enough to push me further into the camp of wondering if we could have healthier coral if we had more cyan light. LEDs in particular almost always have a dip specifically in the cyan spectrum that has always bugged me.

About my current lighting setup... I'm running two Kessil a360x, 2x ATI True Actinic T5, 2x ATI Blue Plus, and for 3 hours at peak light time I run a small Reptisun 5.0 T5 UVA+UVB fixture. (I know the UV bulb is controversial, but I don't want to focus on that in this thread). The T5s all ramp up and down controlled by my Apex. I'm very happy with my setup and how closely that I've managed to copy natural sunlight filtered by ocean water.

So I was trying to figure out what I can do with my current setup to try and add more light in the 500nm range. Every bulb and fixture that I looked at seemed to skip over it. The best that I was able to come up with was just cranking up the supplemental green channel on my Kessils. Both the main blue channel, as well as the green channel have some small amount of 500nm cyan spectrum in them. Between the two of them, it's at least adding some amount of light in that range.

So I was randomly browsing the internet this morning while thinking about this problem, and I stumbled across the existence of a T5 bulb being sold in Europe. It's manufactured by Korallen-Zucht. They're calling it "Great Barrier Turqouise". Nobody in the US is selling this thing. I can't find any forum posts talking about it anywhere. It's like it doesn't exist here. The spectrum looks PERFECT for hitting the spectral absorption peak of peridinin, and it seems like there has to be some benefit to our photosynthetic tank inhabitants by having more of it. Personally, I would LOVE to replace my Blue Plus T5s with these.

So I just wanted to start a post to
1) share how badly I want to experiment with these bulbs,
2) bring attention to the fact that they exist, and
3) start a discussion about how important (or not important) peridinin is to corals and other photosynthetic saltwater life.

Attached is a spectrum graph of these bulbs, to save you some googling.

 

[Koigula]

I am of the camp just to not fight it.

Buying wild corals, the first issue is to realize they are infested with parasites and unwanted pests you cannot control. Granted I run a 300-gallon system and have a small butterfly that eats worms and a small fraction of the nasties by design, but this is a stop gap measure.

The second issue is that wild corals are not going to make it on importation and acclimation, so why even buy them? Is the peridinin a major cause of this? More than likely not.

I buy from a few reputable vendors that happily sell to residence and are fairly close by with aquaculture grow out tanks. I won't place special orders through a LFS as it adds a day. I keep careful note of tank conditions and who's corals live and who's do not. I can get 80%+ or even lose one out a of a dozen from World Wide Corals with Fedex to house by 9am on Saturday.

They run ECOTECH way up high with MP60s and obviously a calcium reactor. I run T5sx8 9" off top with primary make up from a K1 Avast Kalk reactor. I measure Alkalinity every other day at 8:30 pm-ish, Weekly I measure nitrates and change water to keep under 15 ppm. Monthly I measure Calcium, Magnesium, and phosphate monthly. I mix see food per reefbum channel recipie slightly modified. I feed 15 gm a day and not if Nitrates rise still after water changes. Only foofoo dust added is Captiv8 Trace MT daily or something and RedSea AB+ weekly. I up potassium as needed too.

You study things you can measure and control as a hobbyist. For lighting I just go old school 4x ATI Blue Plus, 2x ATI Coral Plus, and 2x ATI UV. You can have Blue corals with this set up as they are easy to get now. I have a blue boy tabling even!!

Sorry I avoid the discussion, but you cannot measure effect and results as a hobbyist.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

I am of the camp just to not fight it.

Buying wild corals, the first issue is to realize they are infested with parasites and unwanted pests you cannot control. Granted I run a 300-gallon system and have a small butterfly that eats worms and a small fraction of the nasties by design, but this is a stop gap measure.

The second issue is that wild corals are not going to make it on importation and acclimation, so why even buy them? Is the peridinin a major cause of this? More than likely not.

....

Sorry I avoid the discussion, but you cannot measure effect and results as a hobbyist.

My post was focusing on the photosynthetic pigment found in saltwater life called peridinin.

It sounds like you might be talking about the pest dinoflagellate called peridinium. If so, then you're talking about something different than what I intended.

If this isn't a case of misunderstanding each other, then I'm very confused about what you're trying to communicate. Most of that information seems random and irrelevant.

 

[oreo54]

Well, after I watched those videos I started digging on the internet looking for more information about the peridinin-chlorophyll-protein complex. Long story made waaaay too short than it should be; peridinin allows photosynthetic organisms to harvest cyan and green light to use them for energy. Granted, I didn't understand a lot of what I read, but I read enough to push me further into the camp of wondering if we could have healthier coral if we had more cyan light. LEDs in particular almost always have a dip specifically in the cyan spectrum that has always bugged me.

About my current lighting setup... I'm running two Kessil a360x, 2x ATI True Actinic T5, 2x ATI Blue Plus, and for 3 hours at peak light time I run a small Reptisun 5.0 T5 UVA+UVB fixture. (I know the UV bulb is controversial, but I don't want to focus on that in this thread). The T5s all ramp up and down controlled by my Apex. I'm very happy with my setup and how closely that I've managed to copy natural sunlight filtered by ocean water.

So I was trying to figure out what I can do with my current setup to try and add more light in the 500nm range. Every bulb and fixture that I looked at seemed to skip over it.

So I just wanted to start a post to
1) share how badly I want to experiment with these bulbs,
2) bring attention to the fact that they exist, and
3) start a discussion about how important (or not important) peridinin is to corals and other photosynthetic saltwater life.

Attached is a spectrum graph of these bulbs, to save you some googling.

Yea fun stuff like this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3947849/#!po=57.6923

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.262537599

Thing is it seems "people" aren't particularly fond of the color.
There are plenty of led lights that include or included cyan diodes. From advanced lights to simple bars.

Some of the facts are peridinin can outnumber chl a. 4 p to one a seems common.

Peridinin transfers photon energy with 95% efficiency.

It would be interesting to see how coral growth is under just blue-green light
on the blue side.

As to current usage not sure that it is a necessity with sooo many photons in the chl a band.

But as you noted it is a more err natural color that white LEDs are short of.
That, though, is a long story.
High cri whites do suppliment cyan in general and violet pump LEDs using blue phosphors generally have enough cyan as well. Point is not all white LEDs are deficient. Only the " bad" ones.


One note though is the green spike in t5's and metal halides at approx. 543 nm.
Ati aqua blue special also has a 490 peak.
Ati blue plus has plenty at 470-480.

The absorption spectra of peridinin both in ethylene glycol and in the PCP complex are rather featureless, with a maximum centered at ≈480 nm together with a shoulder at ≈520 nm.

 

[Bpb]

Following the thread. Over the last few weeks I’ve actually been increasing the output little by little on my 480nm and 520 nm channels on my reef breeders to try and hit some more of that overlap in the cyan range.

I run a light setup of two photon50 units flanking 3 kessil a360x down the center. The kessils are ran at 100% color (whitest setting), with the reef breeders using all but the white and red channels.

I treat the reef breeders panels like blue supplements essentially, but unlike most who run a 450nm dominated blue supplement, I actually have the 420, 480, and 520 nm channels all higher in intensity than the 450nm. I will say with certainty, raising those cool blue and greens up higher makes it have a near identical appearance to the ati blue+ bulb. No, it doesn’t have that sapphire blue appearance people tend to crave in their 450nm dominant spectrum, but it seems to be well tolerated. It is still early and time will tell.

Looks a lot more natural. If you really pay attention to what the water looks like when you get down in the 10-20 foot range, it actually appears strongly turquoise. Not blue.

Unfortunately the fact that there is data out there for people to consume which tells them chlorophyll a is in corals and it absorbs blue and violet light leads to widespread misinterpretation. To the point people run around balking at full spectrum, claiming “red and green light ONLY encourages algae, and corals don’t use it”. Classic case of large numbers of people trying to teach others, when they are not qualified to interpret data themselves. Corals contain many more photopigments than chlorophyll a, my friends.

 

[GoM_reefs]

So I just wanted to start a post to
1) share how badly I want to experiment with these bulbs,

Maybe a silly question, but is there a reason you can't buy the bulbs? I was looking myself and for international shipping all they require is a quote request.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Maybe a silly question, but is there a reason you can't buy the bulbs? I was looking myself and for international shipping all they require is a quote request.

I think that's a perfectly fair question. Mainly, I just don't want to deal with the stress. I've ordered things internationally in the past and had to worry about shipping times that take longer than a month, followed by having to coordinate entrance to my secured building that I live in with the DHL international delivery agent which resulted in multiple delivery attempts and much frustration for everyone involved.

And then if something is broken in transport, or needs to be returned, then it can become a massive source of frustration.

The usual delivery services that come here know how to get into the building, and I have more faith in being able to work out shipping problems or product problems with companies that are in the same country as I am.

I'll gladly throw money at getting the bulbs to satisfy my curiosity, but my peace of mind is more precious to me.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I have a few 495nm diodes on a separate channel in my DIY LED array and I have experimented with them extensively. Personally, I don't like to run them too high due to the overall washout effect on the tank and they have caused issues for my corals when increased too quickly and/or too much intensity (they increase photosynthesis in corals more than most people would believe).

This is an interesting read from Japan where they advocate using a good helping of cyan (similar to natural levels on the reef) to help obtain the full pigment expression in our corals:

http://www.blueharbor.co.jp/en/Coral-Color-Management.html

I don't know any mainstream LED array manufacturers that use such high cyan levels (understandably). However, the previous Radion G5 'Blue' (spectrum on the right) is one that had relatively high cyan as they were trying to compensate for less brightness (due to reduced white emitters) by adding more of it:

Most people tend to treat cyan as an 'accent color', and I agree with that when added in smaller doses. However, when used to contribute a good portion of the overall 'blue spectrum' (~400 - 500nm), it's a whole different ball game.

 

[oreo54]

For fun, a composite..5M = 16.4ft.
A bit messy but should be understandable.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

For fun, a composite..5M = 16.4ft.
A bit messy but should be understandable.

It took me a minute or two to figure out what the chart was saying, but once I did it really drove the point home to me how insanely overlooked that part of the spectrum is. I'm actually amazed that more people don't purposefully look for it.

There are "true actinic" evangelists preaching the "good news" about violet and UV that I've come across over the years. The violet channel in LED fixtures is a highly demanded feature.

I don't think I've ever seen the same obsession with cyan. Based on just this thread, it looks like it deserves that kind of love as much as violet and UV do.

 

[Bpb]

It took me a minute or two to figure out what the chart was saying, but once I did it really drove the point home to me how insanely overlooked that part of the spectrum is. I'm actually amazed that more people don't purposefully look for it.

There are "true actinic" evangelists preaching the "good news" about violet and UV that I've come across over the years. The violet channel in LED fixtures is a highly demanded feature.

I don't think I've ever seen the same obsession with cyan. Based on just this thread, it looks like it deserves that kind of love as much as violet and UV do.

I think it’s a combination of misinterpreted and misrepresented data, combined with the preference of that royal blue aesthetic. People find cyan to be ugly. I don’t mind it personally.

 

[Koigula]

My post was focusing on the photosynthetic pigment found in saltwater life called peridinin.

It sounds like you might be talking about the pest dinoflagellate called peridinium. If so, then you're talking about something different than what I intended.

If this isn't a case of misunderstanding each other, then I'm very confused about what you're trying to communicate. Most of that information seems random and irrelevant.

Corals adjust to captivity and what you give them is the point.

What are you trying to accomplish here? Can you measure faster growth with new spectrum, instead of adding more alkalinity?

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Corals adjust to captivity and what you give them is the point.

What are you trying to accomplish here? Can you measure faster growth with new spectrum, instead of adding more alkalinity?

One of my personal goals in reefkeeping is to recreate the natural environment of the ocean as accurately as possible to minimize the amount of adaptation required to survive and thrive for the animals that I keep in my care.

Some people do want to maximize growth, but that isn't an explicit goal of mine.

I created this thread because I have recently learned that coral and zooxanthellae have a metabolic pathway specifically evolved to use this spectrum of light that my current light setup is deficient in when I compare them to sunlight on the coral reefs. I feel like it is a failure of mine as a keeper and caretaker of these animals if I don't provide that spectrum of light so that they can make use of their full metabolic arsenal of photopigments. I want to correct that failure, so that the animals can make use of the metabolic pathway that might currently be neglected.

The resources that other people have linked to above suggest that this might result in increased growth, better flourescence, brighter colors, etc, but none of that is my primary motivation.

I just want to try to do a good job of creating an environment as close to perfect for the coral as I can. That's how I personally define success for myself in this hobby. So that's what I want to accomplish.

 

[oreo54]

KZ vs ocean..

Suppose I should mention Kyocera which makes depth specific leds (Japan only AFAICT)

KYOCERA Develops World's First Full-Spectrum LED Aquarium Lighting; Innovative technology mimics sunlight at specific underwater depths; designed to optimize growth of corals and marine plants | News Releases | KYOCERA

Kyocera announced that the company developed the world’s first full-spectrum LED lighting for aquariums.

global.kyocera.com

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

KZ vs ocean..

Suppose I should mention Kyocera which makes depth specific leds (Japan only AFAICT)

KYOCERA Develops World's First Full-Spectrum LED Aquarium Lighting; Innovative technology mimics sunlight at specific underwater depths; designed to optimize growth of corals and marine plants | News Releases | KYOCERA

Kyocera announced that the company developed the world’s first full-spectrum LED lighting for aquariums.

global.kyocera.com

I love this image.

If I aim for that 10M line, then I can use all my existing lights to fill in the blue/violet/UV spectrum almost perfectly, and this bulb gets uniquely close to completing the rest of the curve. That sounds so satisfying.

OMG I want those Kyocera LEDs so badly. This news happened in 2018 and I can't find any informationabout them since then. It's been 5 years now. What happened to these things?

 

[oreo54]

OMG I want those Kyocera LEDs so badly. This news happened in 2018 and I can't find any information about them since then. It's been 5 years now. What happened to these things?

Strictly for sale in Japan I suspect...

アクアリウム用LED照明 - 高演色LED CERAPHIC｜LED照明｜京セラ

光源色ラインアップ 製品ラインアップ　使用例　実験例　採用事例 製品 スポットラ...

www-kyocera-co-jp.translate.goog

$800 non-dimmable nor any (obviously) channels @ about $800 US.
51.2 watts

CERAPHICオンラインストア（直営：京セラ株式会社）

CERAPHIC(セラフィック)は、限りなく太陽光に近い光を照らすLED照明です。/使用用途は多岐にわたります。サンゴを育むLED照明として全国の水族館で導入。ペットが過ごしやすい光を提供。食材(料理)のおいしさを届ける光。色彩を届ける忠実に再現する光として美術館でご採用。安らぎの空間を作る光。化粧用ライト。手術用照明。顕微鏡用照明。車体検査用照明。撮影用照明。/京セラが長年、電子部品メーカーとして培ったモノづくりの技術を活かし、紫色発光素子と蛍光体調合技術により、太陽光に酷似したスペクトルのLEDを開発した照明機器です。

ceraphic--ec-kyocera-co-jp.translate.goog

$2000 for 100W light.

【お知らせ】CERAPHIC 公式Instagramを開設しました！

このたび、京セラの高演色LED「CERAPHIC(セラフィック)」の公式Instagramを開設しました！ CERAPHICはこれまで、水族館・美術館・手術用照明などなど、光の質が求められる各業界のプロフェッショナルにご愛用頂いてきました。　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　Instagramアカウントでは、各業界の照明にまつわる秘密を、みなさまにも知って頂けるように、照明選びの実例や豆知識も含めて発信していきます！是非フォロー＆チェックをお願い致します。

ceraphic--ec-kyocera-co-jp.translate.goog

 

[Bpb]

Strictly for sale in Japan I suspect...

アクアリウム用LED照明 - 高演色LED CERAPHIC｜LED照明｜京セラ

光源色ラインアップ 製品ラインアップ　使用例　実験例　採用事例 製品 スポットラ...

www-kyocera-co-jp.translate.goog

$800 non-dimmable nor any (obviously) channels @ about $800 US.
51.2 watts

CERAPHICオンラインストア（直営：京セラ株式会社）

CERAPHIC(セラフィック)は、限りなく太陽光に近い光を照らすLED照明です。/使用用途は多岐にわたります。サンゴを育むLED照明として全国の水族館で導入。ペットが過ごしやすい光を提供。食材(料理)のおいしさを届ける光。色彩を届ける忠実に再現する光として美術館でご採用。安らぎの空間を作る光。化粧用ライト。手術用照明。顕微鏡用照明。車体検査用照明。撮影用照明。/京セラが長年、電子部品メーカーとして培ったモノづくりの技術を活かし、紫色発光素子と蛍光体調合技術により、太陽光に酷似したスペクトルのLEDを開発した照明機器です。

ceraphic--ec-kyocera-co-jp.translate.goog

$2000 for 100W light.

【お知らせ】CERAPHIC 公式Instagramを開設しました！

このたび、京セラの高演色LED「CERAPHIC(セラフィック)」の公式Instagramを開設しました！ CERAPHICはこれまで、水族館・美術館・手術用照明などなど、光の質が求められる各業界のプロフェッショナルにご愛用頂いてきました。　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　Instagramアカウントでは、各業界の照明にまつわる秘密を、みなさまにも知って頂けるように、照明選びの実例や豆知識も含めて発信していきます！是非フォロー＆チェックをお願い致します。

ceraphic--ec-kyocera-co-jp.translate.goog

Glad to see the product actually has made it into circulation, albeit in a foreign market from where many of us are. It would be fantastic if some domestic companies started to mimic that approach. Those spectral contents rival that of LEP and look about as close to actual sunlight as one could hope. Better than any other artificial light source I’ve seen anyway

 

[Koigula]

One of my personal goals in reefkeeping is to recreate the natural environment of the ocean as accurately as possible to minimize the amount of adaptation required to survive and thrive for the animals that I keep in my care.

Some people do want to maximize growth, but that isn't an explicit goal of mine.

I created this thread because I have recently learned that coral and zooxanthellae have a metabolic pathway specifically evolved to use this spectrum of light that my current light setup is deficient in when I compare them to sunlight on the coral reefs. I feel like it is a failure of mine as a keeper and caretaker of these animals if I don't provide that spectrum of light so that they can make use of their full metabolic arsenal of photopigments. I want to correct that failure, so that the animals can make use of the metabolic pathway that might currently be neglected.

The resources that other people have linked to above suggest that this might result in increased growth, better flourescence, brighter colors, etc, but none of that is my primary motivation.

I just want to try to do a good job of creating an environment as close to perfect for the coral as I can. That's how I personally define success for myself in this hobby. So that's what I want to accomplish.

There are various bulbs labeled pink and purple from ATI and KZ. I am glad to see T5 still getting some attention as spectrum are the gold standard. Have a look at this tabling efflo on it way to growing out. It will be tabling with purple rim in 1-2 years then out grow tank.

It was grown under t5s. The coral is tough and adapts but if this aquaculture coral was put back in wild it might die or take year to readjust. There is almost nothing natural about its environment yet is grows ok.

If I gave it a more natural life it would be a big reset on its growth at this point. This is a fundamental concept of reef keeping SPS is to change little to nothing. The core concepts of reef keeping are muddled by slick marketing and simple and effective is made difficult and confusing. Cheap diode lights are slickly packaged based on what is cheap in the market, not what is a great spectrum.

What I am unexcitedly conveying is to not be on cutting edge in reefkeeping marketing. Peter Wilkens nailed it with metal halides and a kalk reactor. You see ACI aquacultre themselves going back to these fundamentals as if they are new again. Even if the tweak in spectrum was real. The benefits are a year out in your tank and not quantifiable.

 

[oreo54]

Soo are you saying he's dumping the Coralcares?

Product Review: Philips’ CoralCare Gen 2 LED Luminaire

It has been almost 15 years since PFO offered the first commercially available LED luminaire for the aquarium market. These were wildly controversial at that ti

reefs.com

They are pretty "cutting edge" with amber and cyan and looks to be better than average white diodes

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

There are various bulbs labeled pink and purple from ATI and KZ. I am glad to see T5 still getting some attention as spectrum are the gold standard. Have a look at this tabling efflo on it way to growing out. It will be tabling with purple rim in 1-2 years then out grow tank.

It was grown under t5s. The coral is tough and adapts but if this aquaculture coral was put back in wild it might die or take year to readjust. There is almost nothing natural about its environment yet is grows ok.

If I gave it a more natural life it would be a big reset on its growth at this point. This is a fundamental concept of reef keeping SPS is to change little to nothing. The core concepts of reef keeping are muddled by slick marketing and simple and effective is made difficult and confusing. Cheap diode lights are slickly packaged based on what is cheap in the market, not what is a great spectrum.

What I am unexcitedly conveying is to not be on cutting edge in reefkeeping marketing. Peter Wilkens nailed it with metal halides and a kalk reactor. You see ACI aquacultre themselves going back to these fundamentals as if they are new again. Even if the tweak in spectrum was real. The benefits are a year out in your tank and not quantifiable.

I still don't understand what you're trying to get me to do, or what you're trying to communicate to me.

My personal primary goal is get as close as I can recreating the ocean in a tiny glass box. This includes the life that is in my care, but it's also the water chemistry and the light spectrum and solar and lunar cycles. I've put in a lot of work recreating all those things to the best of my ability. I love to think about ways that I can do it better. My philosophy is that if I'm successful at keeping the water, light, and darkness, then my livestock will thrive.

It seems like you're saying that I should stop loving what I love about the hobby, and I should just the enjoy the hobby the way that you enjoy it instead.

I'll just ask you point blank. Do you think I'm wrong to enjoy the challenge of simulating the ocean? Is the 'correct' way to be a reefkeeper to focus on maximizing 'benefits'?