LACK OF BASICS KEEPING NEWBIES AWAY FROM REEFING

[Brad Miller]

In lifelong years of freshwater and my recent conversion to reef keeping, Ive thoroughly enjoyed them all.

My fear is that like other things, the true basics of any fishkeeping, especially saltwater, is, or will be lost forever, and replaced with complicated explanations to beginners of the expensive setups, chemicals and techniques that are being touted in today’s reef keeping experience.

Beginners will seek knowledge from whatever multiple outlets they choose and most info they get is conflicting or confusing to them, so they go with what seems to be the most talked about.
They aren’t being shown how to keep it basic by another reefer that can share their experiences in the hobby anymore and guide them on a smaller setup and beginner livestock first. (Kinda like riding a bike with training wheels for a while, then your dad, out of the blue, says that it’s time to take them off.)

A typical beginner will use the internet nowadays (since it is the easiest) and compile so many different ways to achieve the same results, thus confusing the basic idea of that achievement....a few quick examples that would keep costs and understanding much lower;
1. Using baking soda to dose for raising alkalinity, or how to bake it and turn it into soda ash.
2. Using certain ice melting salt to raise calcium.
3. Dosing stump remover to raise nitrates.
4. Zero need to purchase expensive lighting.
5. Zero need for expensive variable speed powerheads, gyre and random flow pumps.
6. Zero need for a web base or WiFi controller.
7. Zero need for automatic dosing.
8. Zero need to buy expensive rock work. (God forbid you use cement anymore)
9. Zero need to have a cabinet full of “medicine” for your fish.
You get the idea.....

There are many arguments to justify the expensive ways such as better stability, mimicking the natural oceanic occurances and fear of using lower cost additives, but the less knowledgeable will be steered by the input they receive, from whatever source they decide on.

I fear we are losing touch with the way the old timers kept their tanks, (some of these guys are ridiculed for the way they still run their reef tanks) with the onslaught of pristine water and perfect parameter numbers, expensive equipment (you know....that shiny object)electronics, auto this, auto that.

Which brings me to sing the praises about R2R....

My conversion to saltwater was a very confusing and intimidating one to say the least, consumed by fear of failure from lack of knowledge and experience along with costs involved.

With the ability of using the R2R site, I armed myself with the knowledge I thought would assist in my newfound reef keeping hobby. I acquired valuable, rock solid answers, direct or indirectly, that other sites just could not touch. I have yet to have an unpleasant experience on R2R, this is why I became a supporting member a few months after joining here.

Please keep helping the hobby by lending a hand when you can, the members here are awesome, knowledgeable, caring and sensitive.

Let’s all not forget to teach the basics first to newcomers in the hobby as they come here for that reliable advice.
Encourage them to start off smaller and learn the basics of reefing first.
Once they have been reefing awhile, they will feel more comfortable and be able to expand their choices of harder to keep coral and more advanced techniques.

 

[hatfielj]

I think you are definitely on to something here. Especially items 4-9...This hobby has become absolutely DOMINATED by money making interests. It was not like this when I started back in 2005. This forum specifically is more about selling people things than it is about learning and sharing knowledge. Online forums were not like this 14 years ago.
I think it needs to change. We need to shift away from a consumer driven motive and start focusing more on the nature, science, art, and beauty of this hobby. Just my 2 cents

 

[Journeyman]

I think the two most intimidating things are the cost and then how complicated it seems.

As far as the cost, it is more expensive than fresh, but not as much as one might think. The tank itself costs the same, but the equipment is different. But it's not necessary to get a canister or hob filter, which I find are detritus traps. The cost of these are replaced by a good skimmer. I do recommend some kind of refugium. If the tank is not reef ready, then there are fairly low cost hob fuges. I had a 10g nano with a cheap $20 finnex hob refugium that worked wonderfully. Then some lights and you can be up and running.

Ato's, reef controllers, canister reactors while convenient aren't strictly necessary.

I personally keep a mixed reef with everything from softies to acros running just a skimmer, chaeto in fuge and an in sump ats. I just don't kalk in my top off. I do run an ato for top off.

Which brings me to difficulty. I feel like it's not much more difficult than fresh water. Although I make things simpler by using an Apex, I went without one for years. I do recommend an ato as it keeps salinity level really stable. These are not as expensive as they used to be and really easy to set up. After that a skimmer and give are really simple to maintain. Dump out the dirty water and trim the chaeto. Honestly I don't think my maintenance schedule is much harder than fresh water and I have much more fun timing around with my reef tank.

I tell people a reef tank can really be as difficult it as easy as you want to make it.

 

[flchamp89]

In lifelong years of freshwater and my recent conversion to reef keeping, Ive thoroughly enjoyed them all.

My fear is that like other things, the true basics of any fishkeeping, especially saltwater, is, or will be lost forever, and replaced with complicated explanations to beginners of the expensive setups, chemicals and techniques that are being touted in today’s reef keeping experience.

Beginners will seek knowledge from whatever multiple outlets they choose and most info they get is conflicting or confusing to them, so they go with what seems to be the most talked about.
They aren’t being shown how to keep it basic by another reefer that can share their experiences in the hobby anymore and guide them on a smaller setup and beginner livestock first. (Kinda like riding a bike with training wheels for a while, then your dad, out of the blue, says that it’s time to take them off.)

A typical beginner will use the internet nowadays (since it is the easiest) and compile so many different ways to achieve the same results, thus confusing the basic idea of that achievement....a few quick examples that would keep costs and understanding much lower;
1. Using baking soda to dose for raising alkalinity, or how to bake it and turn it into soda ash.
2. Using certain ice melting salt to raise calcium.
3. Dosing stump remover to raise nitrates.
4. Zero need to purchase expensive lighting.
5. Zero need for expensive variable speed powerheads, gyre and random flow pumps.
6. Zero need for a web base or WiFi controller.
7. Zero need for automatic dosing.
8. Zero need to buy expensive rock work. (God forbid you use cement anymore)
9. Zero need to have a cabinet full of “medicine” for your fish.
You get the idea.....

There are many arguments to justify the expensive ways such as better stability, mimicking the natural oceanic occurances and fear of using lower cost additives, but the less knowledgeable will be steered by the input they receive, from whatever source they decide on.

I fear we are losing touch with the way the old timers kept their tanks, (some of these guys are ridiculed for the way they still run their reef tanks) with the onslaught of pristine water and perfect parameter numbers, expensive equipment (you know....that shiny object)electronics, auto this, auto that.

Which brings me to sing the praises about R2R....

My conversion to saltwater was a very confusing and intimidating one to say the least, consumed by fear of failure from lack of knowledge and experience along with costs involved.

With the ability of using the R2R site, I armed myself with the knowledge I thought would assist in my newfound reef keeping hobby. I acquired valuable, rock solid answers, direct or indirectly, that other sites just could not touch. I have yet to have an unpleasant experience on R2R, this is why I became a supporting member a few months after joining here.

Please keep helping the hobby by lending a hand when you can, the members here are awesome, knowledgeable, caring and sensitive.

Let’s all not forget to teach the basics first to newcomers in the hobby as they come here for that reliable advice.
Encourage them to start off smaller and learn the basics of reefing first.
Once they have been reefing awhile, they will feel more comfortable and be able to expand their choices of harder to keep coral and more advanced techniques.

I like it Brad. I think if an aquarist understands the basics he or she can have success in either FW or SW.

 

[fish farmer]

I started in 2000, when the equipment was very limited and DIY was king. I even build a DIY skimmer/overflow, MH/PC lighting. I dripped or ATO'd kalk and had great succes with softies and LPS and even had a porites rescued from a rock tank do well. I tested weekly...not daily, WC with DI water( it was a 38 gallon) every other week. I did have to start Mg and Alkalinity supplements when the tank was mature.

Fast forward to now. I'm back to doing basically the same thing, except using a dosing pump for kalk, different lighting(LED) which was affordable and using chaeto/WC for nutrient control. I still haven't mastered the stability for a true mixed reef yet, but that doesn't really matter.

With regard to equipment though, sometimes you do need some "complexity" for things to survive. For instance running AC....I lived for years without AC, you tank may not like those mid 80's or higher when you are away on vacation during that heat wave. Also running redundant heaters with a simple controller, is it really necessary for a beginner? Or a battery/backup generator for a beginner? I'm starting to consider these things as equally important as understanding the basics.

 

[Jay Z]

My dad got me my first 10 gallon at 8 years old for christmas. He killed every fish in it with distilled water (high PH). After he fixed that, it was my responsibility. He also got me 2 aquarium books and told me it was mine take care of it. If it does good, you can buy more fish with your allowance. Thats how it started for me. Late 70's and 80's aquarium manuals and working at pet stores. Most everything I know was from reading, talking to the experienced, and trial and error.

Ive been doing a old school style my whole life and get crap for it. Some things people push are unnecessary, other things have many options to get the same results, some time lines are way to long for what actually can be done, some to short. Thats the problem when everyone reads the same article. Its easier to hold your tongue then try to fight with others that have no experience in what your talking about.

If you look around here, some people, are considered law when ever they say something. Truth be told, you can setup, maintain a tank successfully, in many different ways. Always research and keep learning. You see a old reefer at the LFS, talk to them, you'll be surprised on how it use to be done and what you can learn from them.

And yes, the initial google search for how to set up a salt tank looks easy, but is far from the truth for maintaining, because you actually have to work to do it. Most kids are lazy today to say the least and won't take the time to learn or maintain.

I'm 41 now and have always wanted to build a dream tank. Now that I can afford it, I did it. I got all the bells and whistles. Did I need it, nope. Do I like the convenience it offers while I'm out of town every week? yes I do. I knew with my work schedule and being single I was going to have to throw money at it, a lot of money, to maintain it by itself.

I do like being able to mix my old school knowledge with new school equipment, kind of like cheating.

I had no issues keeping tanks back in the day with treated tap water, some penguin bio wheels, a magnum canister, no fug, and what ever bulbs pet supplies had in stock.

We will lose a lot of knowledge with the loss of our generation and the previous one. It won't just be reefing thats affected.

My tank was setup on december 31st of 2018, I put fish in it right after I mixed water in a bathtub and filled the tank, done it a 100 times before with no issues. Got some tank cycle to boot, tank was cycled in 6 days (wish they had that when I was little). At 3 1/2 months I'm fully stocked with things most say can't be in there yet. Hell, I'm researching today on how to frag a hammer, never done it before, not nervous one bit on doing it. That because of the info on here.

I'm sitting a little over $10k right now for everything in and around my tank, my boss covering all the automation equipment for sending me out of town all the time. I had zero equipment to start with, zero rock, no tank, no plan. Am I embarrassed to say I spent this much?, yep. But between experience, knowledge, R2R, and the capabilities of the new equipment I knew it would work if setup right from the get go. Best embarrassing choice I've made in years.

Best part of this site is, if you search. You can find many roads to get you where your going. At the end of the day, I prefer to make my own road with the help of others road signs that have walked the path.

My fish tank room looks like frankensteins laboratory. Equipment mounted all over the walls, everything exposed, never redid the room before I started, stove hood mounted over the tank to exhaust skimmer smells and humidity. But in the middle is a little glass box, filled with a pristine world of calmness.

I love this hobby because its a game you can never win. Everything is constantly changing. Best you can do is manage. Which keeps me constantly learning and trying. If you can't learn and try, why even be alive?

Get your grandkids, nephew, niece, school class or kids a starter tank. Teach them, let them learn, show them how to learn.

Thats how we keep it alive.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Totally

1980.. take 1 box made of glass, 1 plastic piece with a ton of holes in it, 1 air stone and air pump or pump, and salt mix. Stir all together add 4 damsels and hang a light. Set to bake for a month until ready to use. Read books and talk to others. Learn to keep a stable tank.

2019... get 2nd job or loan for tank, a tank under the tank for some reason, enough light and other electronics the original univac computer could not run, throw chemical after chemical in and go. Then change the entire set up when a newer version comes out or a new idea is read in the forum.

I think the advancements and forums are amazing. They have helped grow the hobby by leaps and bounds.
But, It can be like trying to run a 1/4 mile drag race on a GSXR after reading online how to launch the bike from the starting line. Fun to watch, no so good for the person screaming and trying to hang on

 

[Brad Miller]

Totally

1980.. take 1 box made of glass, 1 plastic piece with a ton of holes in it, 1 air stone and air pump or pump, and salt mix. Stir all together add 4 damsels and hang a light. Set to bake for a month until ready to use. Read books and talk to others. Learn to keep a stable tank.

2019... get 2nd job or loan for tank, a tank under the tank for some reason, enough light and other electronics the original univac computer could not run, throw chemical after chemical in and go. Then change the entire set up when a newer version comes out or a new idea is read in the forum.

I think the advancements and forums are amazing. They have helped grow the hobby by leaps and bounds.
But, It can be like trying to run a 1/4 mile drag race on a GSXR after reading online how to launch the bike from the starting line. Fun to watch, no so good for the person screaming and trying to hang on

Your post is way too funny

All good comments fellow basic hobbyists

 

[fish farmer]

Totally

1980.. take 1 box made of glass, 1 plastic piece with a ton of holes in it, 1 air stone and air pump or pump, and salt mix. Stir all together add 4 damsels and hang a light. Set to bake for a month until ready to use. Read books and talk to others. Learn to keep a stable tank.

2019... get 2nd job or loan for tank, a tank under the tank for some reason, enough light and other electronics the original univac computer could not run, throw chemical after chemical in and go. Then change the entire set up when a newer version comes out or a new idea is read in the forum.

I think the advancements and forums are amazing. They have helped grow the hobby by leaps and bounds.
But, It can be like trying to run a 1/4 mile drag race on a GSXR after reading online how to launch the bike from the starting line. Fun to watch, no so good for the person screaming and trying to hang on

plastic piece with a ton of holes in it.....I had to think for a second. Don't forget the Aquaclear HOB where the motor clipped on the outside and the impeller was on the inside.

Considering I have equipment that is over ten years old.....I still use my original Ultralife float switch(just change the floats when needed)....I just searched for new ones...they are fancy now, I can plug TWO into them. I might have get me one of those.

 

[crusso1993]

In lifelong years of freshwater and my recent conversion to reef keeping, Ive thoroughly enjoyed them all.

My fear is that like other things, the true basics of any fishkeeping, especially saltwater, is, or will be lost forever, and replaced with complicated explanations to beginners of the expensive setups, chemicals and techniques that are being touted in today’s reef keeping experience.

Beginners will seek knowledge from whatever multiple outlets they choose and most info they get is conflicting or confusing to them, so they go with what seems to be the most talked about.
They aren’t being shown how to keep it basic by another reefer that can share their experiences in the hobby anymore and guide them on a smaller setup and beginner livestock first. (Kinda like riding a bike with training wheels for a while, then your dad, out of the blue, says that it’s time to take them off.)

A typical beginner will use the internet nowadays (since it is the easiest) and compile so many different ways to achieve the same results, thus confusing the basic idea of that achievement....a few quick examples that would keep costs and understanding much lower;
1. Using baking soda to dose for raising alkalinity, or how to bake it and turn it into soda ash.
2. Using certain ice melting salt to raise calcium.
3. Dosing stump remover to raise nitrates.
4. Zero need to purchase expensive lighting.
5. Zero need for expensive variable speed powerheads, gyre and random flow pumps.
6. Zero need for a web base or WiFi controller.
7. Zero need for automatic dosing.
8. Zero need to buy expensive rock work. (God forbid you use cement anymore)
9. Zero need to have a cabinet full of “medicine” for your fish.
You get the idea.....

There are many arguments to justify the expensive ways such as better stability, mimicking the natural oceanic occurances and fear of using lower cost additives, but the less knowledgeable will be steered by the input they receive, from whatever source they decide on.

I fear we are losing touch with the way the old timers kept their tanks, (some of these guys are ridiculed for the way they still run their reef tanks) with the onslaught of pristine water and perfect parameter numbers, expensive equipment (you know....that shiny object)electronics, auto this, auto that.

Which brings me to sing the praises about R2R....

My conversion to saltwater was a very confusing and intimidating one to say the least, consumed by fear of failure from lack of knowledge and experience along with costs involved.

With the ability of using the R2R site, I armed myself with the knowledge I thought would assist in my newfound reef keeping hobby. I acquired valuable, rock solid answers, direct or indirectly, that other sites just could not touch. I have yet to have an unpleasant experience on R2R, this is why I became a supporting member a few months after joining here.

Please keep helping the hobby by lending a hand when you can, the members here are awesome, knowledgeable, caring and sensitive.

Let’s all not forget to teach the basics first to newcomers in the hobby as they come here for that reliable advice.
Encourage them to start off smaller and learn the basics of reefing first.
Once they have been reefing awhile, they will feel more comfortable and be able to expand their choices of harder to keep coral and more advanced techniques.

Well said, Brad!

Less is often more, not always, but often.

 

[ca1ore]

Don’t you think that many of the things we look back on fondly as constituting the ‘basics’ of reefkeeping were borne of necessity? There was no fancy equipment, certainly not the array of options facing the hobbyist today; chemical additions were mostly DIY, certainly supplements for the big-3. ESV was the pioneer here, at least for me. I tend to dismiss ‘the current generation doesn’t know what they are doing’ types of arguments as generational hubris.

Having said that, there are a few things I lament:

1. Sites like R2R are just as good at disseminating misinformation as they are information - it’s hard for the newcomer to distinguish bad from good advice.
2. Internet has largely killed off the reef book publishing business - most unfortunate as publishing a coherent book requires both commitment and expertise. Making a YouTube video or a blog post requires neither.
3. Automation insanity - I do agree that automation has gotten out of control, both in terms of what is attempted and pricing. I suppose newer generations of reefers have grown up in a highly automated world, so it’s just what they know. Mostly not necessary, and often trusted too much.

 

[WVNed]

No one is forcing anyone to change
This is a tank with a good light, some flow and a skimmer sitting in an old tank underneath.

So is this

10 years later
In fact the 20L tank in the first picture is my sump now.

every time I look at that picture I think about going back to T-5s.

 

[maroun.c]

Excellent post.
I indeed try to run my tank the old conventional way. Still got my halides, and a DSB hodden in the sump so nonones makes fun
I did add few radions for supplementation, added a conteoller for monitoring as i relocated and only get to see the tank a few days per month.
Running tank the basic waynallowed me avoid any crash in 20 years eventhough i always traveled 2-3 weeks every month. Swotching to any dosing methods would have maybe given me 10 percent better colors but that would have trippled the running cost and time to care for the tank.

 

[Donut King]

I grew up with crappy internet in the mid 2000s and read a ton of books, amassed a great many of them from Scott Michael, Julian Sprung, Bob Renner, and John Tullock. It's sad to think that reef books don't get written anymore.

In my opinion the great advantage of reading a book from a particular author is you get a consistent opinion from one end to the other. With internet sources you end up cobbling together a number of different and perhaps subtly competing theories.

 

[TriggerFinger]

No one is forcing anyone to change
This is a tank with a good light, some flow and a skimmer sitting in an old tank underneath.

So is this

10 years later
In fact the 20L tank in the first picture is my sump now.

every time I look at that picture I think about going back to T-5s.

For what it’s worth (nothing), I much prefer the look of your first pic. Both are great looking tanks, the first one just has something different than what you see every day now and I like it.

 

[JPergamo]

I feel like there is a huge amount of value in starting like (I'm assuming) many of us did: super simple system stemming from fresh water experience and a hunger to learn. I've had so many failures and made mistakes and have done some outright stupid things because I read constantly, but i feel those experiences have let me gain the ability to "guage" my system almost just by feel. My favorite part of the hobby is the DIY aspect and always was. I'm a tinkerer. I've never had a controller, I tinker with the tank. Wanting the safety and redundancies through a controller may make me finally purchase one, but I would never ever advise a new reefer that they need one or even should have one. Learning the ins and outs with the most basic system is the best way to learn.

 

[Peter Clark]

While I had a freshwater tank, turtle tank, and technically a saltwater tank (just hermit crabs) when I was a kid, my first reef tank was in college. I had done some research online and had planned on getting an all in one system (I want to say Red Sea Max or a Biocube. This would have been 2006 or so). Luckily the LFS was sold out of the size I wanted. The kid helping me there suggested just piecing together equipment and doing the setup myself rather than an all in one. We grabbed a 29g tank, HOB protein skimmer, powerhead with rotating head, a light (maybe T5?), heater, and cheap digital thermometer (which later started to read the temp low making me think the heater was having trouble and turning it up, cooking a couple corals). Then just some dry sand and live rock. Very simple setup and I kept some softies in it. Worked well. I eventually added a sump and upgraded the light with an ebay MH one. I had no idea what I was doing so sure had tons of algae, but the corals did well and I had a bta that grew giant in that tank. Later I added a 120g FOWLR setup using a used tank/stand and cheap shop lights for the lighting.

I was really sad when I had to sell it all off due to moving and not really being settled again until maybe 5 years ago. Those tanks were 10 years ago...oh how I miss them. I especially miss my clowns in the 29g and my snowflake moray in the 120g.

Wife recently gave the ok for a new tank, so I already have the skimmer, sump, pumps, powerheads, RODI, mixing station, salt, rock (got some pukani last year), sand, QT system (one for fish and one for corals), lights (cheap t5 set from Amazon), a used Apex Classic, test kits, etc. I have some of the parts for an algae scrubber too. The only thing missing is the tank and stand, and of course about a dozen house projects that need to be done first. One day I will have it set up again! And while I'm going more advanced this time, I'm still using that old knowledge to remind myself I can keep things cheap and simple. I'll just stick with cheap, hardy SPS this time.

 

[vetteguy53081]

In some aspects, old school is proven and successful. Impulse and misinformation is the biggest chat to the new hobbyist not to mention stores with less than knowledgeable staff ready to sell a queen angel and a bottle of bacteria on day two of a new setup

 

[McPuff]

If you equate reefkeeping (or simply aquarium keeping) to learning a language then it becomes abundantly clear that you cannot simply go from nothing to everything all at once. It takes time to understand the basics and progress your way through until you are somewhat fluent and comfortable with the subject matter. There are so many examples of people that want a reef, yet have no fish keeping experience. They simply want to jump right in, pay what's necessary, and expect to have a stunning system. Reefing and the everything-now mindset of our society do not mesh well. The most important things (in my opinion) to successfully keeping a reef are 1) knowledge/learning, and 2) patience. Neither of those can be picked up on a whim. I always suggest a person start with fish only (likely freshwater) so they can learn about nutrient cycling, organismal biology, proper acclimation, and maintenance. If someone is not willing to take such simple steps to gain experience and progress through some logical steps (and maybe determine if having an aquarium is even something they enjoy), then why would I point them to the complex world of reefkeeping?

We need to point prospective reefers back to books, back to gaining experience, back to experienced fish/reef keepers instead of pointing them to the newest must-have gadgets. This is not elitist mentality as some might suggest. It is responsibility and should be used more often.

 

[dantimdad]

I have said the same for years and gotten some support but a whole lot of push back.

Ask anyone who I have helped over the years and they will tell you that, at least starting out, the old ways work very well.

There are certain things that I like the modern approach but still use the old ways just because they are stable.

Like an old truck to me. (Yes, I use this analogy a LOT). It still hauls everything you need, it aint as flashy but definitely just as pretty (or maybe more) with way less headaches down the road should something go wrong.