Lanthanum Chloride vs Cerium Chloride (My Fish Are Dying)

Ben Pedersen

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Last night after much consideration and reading I dosed 0.4 mL of Orenda PR-10,000 directly into my skimmer to reduce phosphates. This morning thinking I would add the manual dosing to my morning routine, I added another 0.3 mL. After doing this I noticed that my fish were all breathing very hard and that my Powder Brown tang was missing. The tang was dead and my fox face died shortly after.

The tank is approx 90 gallons. The water is not and was never cloudy. I have done a 15 gallon water change and am making water to do another 15 gallon change. All fish are still breathing heavily.

I called the manufacture who said they had switched from Lanthanum Chloride to Cerium Chloride 15 years ago. They also said they had no idea what would have killed the fish especially at the small dose I used. Cerium Chloride produces a similar inert flux as Lanthanum Chloride.

Does anyone have any idea why this would be killing my fish.. I am really concerned I am going to loose my Wrasses and Tangs. All corals and invertebrates look great.

Any info would be helpful. :(
 
Fritz

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Fish Think Pink

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Last night after much consideration and reading I dosed 0.4 mL of Orenda PR-10,000 directly into my skimmer to reduce phosphates. This morning thinking I would add the manual dosing to my morning routine, I added another 0.3 mL. After doing this I noticed that my fish were all breathing very hard and that my Powder Brown tang was missing. The tang was dead and my fox face died shortly after.

The tank is approx 90 gallons. The water is not and was never cloudy. I have done a 15 gallon water change and am making water to do another 15 gallon change. All fish are still breathing heavily.

I called the manufacture who said they had switched from Lanthanum Chloride to Cerium Chloride 15 years ago. They also said they had no idea what would have killed the fish especially at the small dose I used. Cerium Chloride produces a similar inert flux as Lanthanum Chloride.

Does anyone have any idea why this would be killing my fish.. I am really concerned I am going to loose my Wrasses and Tangs. All corals and invertebrates look great.

Any info would be helpful. :(
sorry for your loss

I think your dose is too high and too frequent

I have 180g and dose Blue Vet Phosphate Rx by drops (like, 18 drops) as my yellow tang very sensitive to lanthanum. No need to go fast with getting your phosphates down; they didn't get up there overnight, so take your time getting back down
 
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Ben Pedersen

Ben Pedersen

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I've never heard of anyone dosing cerium to their aquaria, and cerium chloride is listed on this safety data sheet as "very toxic to aquaic organisms", killing rainbow trout at 0.13 ppm.

I assume it is a different form of Cerium chloride as the data sheet for the product does not list any of the same hazards. The product datasheet also says that it is safe for fish and invertebrates.

Cerium trichloride heptahydrate looks pretty nasty. :(
 

BZOFIQ

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Why would you use an untested and unconfirmed product?

SeaKlear has been widely used and works very well when people show restraint and dose properly/sparingly with 1 micron sock in use.

This is what i've/people use.


Sorry for your loss
 
Fritz

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I assume it is a different form of Cerium chloride as the data sheet for the product does not list any of the same hazards. The product datasheet also says that it is safe for fish and invertebrates.

Cerium trichloride heptahydrate looks pretty nasty. :(

Maybe it's not actually cerium chloride, but there are no other commercial forms of cerium chloride (aside from hydration state, which doesn't impact toxicity).
 

Jon's Reef

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Always a risk to use pool/ pond rated chemicals, there are many sources of marine aquarium products (Blue RX, Brightwell, etc)

If they switched chemicals the SDS sheet is incorrect:

Page 4, section 10 mentions a decomposition product of lanthanum oxide. If they did not update that section, they may not have updated the hazards.
 
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Ben Pedersen

Ben Pedersen

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sorry for your loss

I think your dose is too high and too frequent

I have 180g and dose Blue Vet Phosphate Rx by drops (like, 18 drops) as my yellow tang very sensitive to lanthanum. No need to go fast with getting your phosphates down; they didn't get up there overnight, so take your time getting back down
I thought I was moving slow at .03 - .04 mL.
 
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Ben Pedersen

Ben Pedersen

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Why would you use an untested and unconfirmed product?

SeaKlear has been widely used and works very well when people show restraint and dose properly/sparingly with 1 micron sock in use.

This is what i've/people use.


Sorry for your loss
I saw people were using this product successfully on multiple reef forums but did not realize that they were old posts. Since the posts, the company changed from Lanthanum Chloride to Cerium Chloride. The company said that the Cerium chloride should not have negative impact on fish nor invertebrate and the safety sheet did not mention any negative health affect other then the precautionary.. Do not drink, wash your hands after use, etc.

Thanks for the link...
 
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Ben Pedersen

Ben Pedersen

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Maybe it's not actually cerium chloride, but there are no other commercial forms of cerium chloride (aside from hydration state, which doesn't impact toxicity).
The company said they get 99.999% pure Cerium Chloride and hydrate it themselves.. I asked what the by products of hydration were, they said harmless salts. Clearly not so harmless..
 
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Ben Pedersen

Ben Pedersen

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Always a risk to use pool/ pond rated chemicals, there are many sources of marine aquarium products (Blue RX, Brightwell, etc)

If they switched chemicals the SDS sheet is incorrect:

Page 4, section 10 mentions a decomposition product of lanthanum oxide. If they did not update that section, they may not have updated the hazards.
The tech was the one that told me they switched some time ago...

Very sad :(
 
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Ben Pedersen

Ben Pedersen

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After another water change, fish are still breathing heavy but are more active.. Female bird wrasse is missing as well as a LemonPeal angle...

It was so sad, the female bird wrasse layed down on the bottom and the male laid down next to her. The male is swimming around.. the female is missing.

I took this a couple weeks ago.. now the tang and foxface are dead and maybe the female wrrase.
FE276491-AF17-4B7D-B439-B5C0091D4A62.png
 
BRS

Randy Holmes-Farley

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The company said they get 99.999% pure Cerium Chloride and hydrate it themselves.. I asked what the by products of hydration were, they said harmless salts. Clearly not so harmless..

Hydration does nothing in this context. It just means adding water to the solid. Any cerium chloride hitting water is instantly hydrated as it dissolves, if it wasn't fully hydrated already.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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After another water change, fish are still breathing heavy but are more active.. Female bird wrasse is missing as well as a LemonPeal angle...

It was so sad, the female bird wrasse layed down on the bottom and the male laid down next to her. The male is swimming around.. the female is missing.

I took this a couple weeks ago.. now the tang and foxface are dead and maybe the female wrrase.
FE276491-AF17-4B7D-B439-B5C0091D4A62.png

Very sorry to hear this. :(
 

LRT

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After another water change, fish are still breathing heavy but are more active.. Female bird wrasse is missing as well as a LemonPeal angle...

It was so sad, the female bird wrasse layed down on the bottom and the male laid down next to her. The male is swimming around.. the female is missing.

I took this a couple weeks ago.. now the tang and foxface are dead and maybe the female wrrase.
FE276491-AF17-4B7D-B439-B5C0091D4A62.png
There's no way to mix up fresh salt mix with some liverock? I think anything other than those fish sitting in toxic water would be better at this point.
Absoloutely horrible man. Very sorry
 

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