Lanthanum Chloride vs Cerium Chloride (My Fish Are Dying)

areefer01

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Nice display. Sorry for your loss. What done is done but I would strongly recommend that you properly dispose of the product you used or donate it to someone who has a pool / spa to make better use of it. Lanthanum Chloride is a bit of a mix bag as you can see by the replies here and what you may have read elsewhere.

I think the priority now is to do some water changes as you are doing matching parameters to remove residual. I don't know the shelf life is in the water but maybe Randy here has insight. But continue that course and then recheck your phosphate level and assess.

I don't know what the phosphate number was or what you wanted to reach or if it was even necessary but as already noted a safe product to use would be Blue Life's Phosphate Rx. Similar concept of calculating water volume, math to get number of drops, add slowly to filter sock before skimmer, or drip directly into the skimmer, preferably just before lights out for sleeping / calmer tank, and let it run for a couple days. Then water change. More or less it.

Lastly, because I don't want to kick a dead horse, double check sources that recommend a over the counter product you may add to do something. There are a lot of older articles, and current ones, from chemist such as Randy here that list names of safe products to use. And why that is important is that there is a 99% or higher chance they used the product be it baking soda, pickling lime, or lanthanum chloride. Just something to remember because life is a bit crazy but that extra minute of checking could help down the road.

Again that is a rocking tank you have based on that photo you shared. Keep that skimmer running, do some water changes, easy to get it cleared. Be safe.

Edit: side effects when I used Phsphate Rx:

1. Bubble tips receded a bit for a couple days
2. Leathers, mostly my green long tentacle, closed up a for a few days
 
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josephxsxn

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Sorry for your loss Ben! That's rough...

I have been using Brightwell Phosphate-E without any problem for a few months now. I have no idea how strong the product your using is compared to Phosphate-E so it's hard for me to say if your dose is high or low.

The hypothesis is that it can make tiny particles that can get stuck in the gills, not sure how much water changes will help at this point but they can't hurt.

Hope things turn around soon for you.
 
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Ben Pedersen

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Hydration does nothing in this context. It just means adding water to the solid. Any cerium chloride hitting water is instantly hydrated as it dissolves, if it wasn't fully hydrated already.
They said they use acids and water to hydrate it.. I guess to increase concentration.. As a by product they said it produces a couple different salts that are also in the solution. I am no expert.. just repeating what they said..
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Perhaps this company did not consider marine applications:

Maximum Permissible Concentrations and Negligible Concentrations for Rare Earth Elements (REEs)​


"The toxicity ranking differs between fresh and saltwater as well. For freshwater organisms Ce seems to be the least toxic element and Nd and La the most toxic. For saltwater organisms, Ce is the most toxic and Dy the least toxic."
 
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Ben Pedersen

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Sorry for your loss Ben! That's rough...

I have been using Brightwell Phosphate-E without any problem for a few months now. I have no idea how strong the product your using is compared to Phosphate-E so it's hard for me to say if your dose is high or low.

The hypothesis is that it can make tiny particles that can get stuck in the gills, not sure how much water changes will help at this point but they can't hurt.

Hope things turn around soon for you.
Thanks.. Ya.. Agreed on the water changes.. I wonder what the gill mechanism is and how long it lasts..
 
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Ben Pedersen

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Perhaps this company did not consider marine applications:

Maximum Permissible Concentrations and Negligible Concentrations for Rare Earth Elements (REEs)​


"The toxicity ranking differs between fresh and saltwater as well. For freshwater organisms Ce seems to be the least toxic element and Nd and La the most toxic. For saltwater organisms, Ce is the most toxic and Dy the least toxic."
Very possible they didn't consider marine application. Do you by chance know the impact on the gills? How long does it last?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Very possible they didn't consider marine application. Do you by chance know the impact on the gills? How long does it last?

I really know almost nothing about the toxicity mechanisms of La or Ce.
 
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Ben Pedersen

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I really know almost nothing about the toxicity mechanisms of La or Ce.
In that the affect suposedly is due to a physical mechanism (flax in gills) / not chemical... why / how would it get better without some physical action of removal. I am worried for all the fish. They are all still breathing heavy.

578538BF-E7E3-4CB6-8001-CECE47CC927C.png
 

Deezill

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I was told that would only happen if you could see that the water clouded up... I used very very little.. 0.4 mL
I don't know man I lost a bristletooth tang to it. My water not cloudy or anything. But 0.4mL is a very small dose
compared to my dose of 20mL
 

josephxsxn

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In that the affect suposedly is due to a physical mechanism (flax in gills) / not chemical... why / how would it get better without some physical action of removal. I am worried for all the fish. They are all still breathing heavy.

578538BF-E7E3-4CB6-8001-CECE47CC927C.png


I think alot of our understanding of how these things effect our animals is very hypothetical at best. We make assumptions that heavy breathing is related to the gills via inference but I don't think we really know for sure.

But let's assume it's particles in the gills.. perhaps slime coat will remove it over time.. or perhaps the body just heals around it, iirc gills can heal and regenerate over time. Just some hypothetical ideas here.

If it's something else like trace toxic elements perhaps activated carbon or Pureit would help absorb it.. also GFO (called BayOxide) is used to absorb more then just phospahtes in water purification including arsenic
 
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In that the affect suposedly is due to a physical mechanism (flax in gills) / not chemical... why / how would it get better without some physical action of removal. I am worried for all the fish. They are all still breathing heavy.

I've seen folks hypothesize about the mechanism of the toxicity (particles in gills), but I've not seen a reason to think that is accurate. Folks may just see the particles and conclude "this must be why"... There are all sorts of particles in reef tanks and in the ocean. Not sure why these would be different.
 
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Ben Pedersen

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I've seen folks hypothesize about the mechanism of the toxicity (particles in gills), but I've not seen a reason to think that is accurate. Folks may just see the particles and conclude "this must be why"... There are all sorts of particles in reef tanks and in the ocean. Not sure why these would be different.
I agree.. Hopefully they will be ok.. Have had those fish forever.. :(
 
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Ben Pedersen

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There's no way to mix up fresh salt mix with some liverock? I think anything other than those fish sitting in toxic water would be better at this point.
Absoloutely horrible man. Very sorry
I have done 2 water changes and will do another in a little bit.. I dont think the water is bad anymore.. Think it is just the residual affect on the fish...
 

josephxsxn

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I have done 2 water changes and will do another in a little bit.. I dont think the water is bad anymore.. Think it is just the residual affect on the fish...
If the particle hypothesis is correct your probably at least removing some of the bound phospahtes before they settle out.

Maybe set your skimmer to extra wet?
 
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Ben Pedersen

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Nice display. Sorry for your loss. What done is done but I would strongly recommend that you properly dispose of the product you used or donate it to someone who has a pool / spa to make better use of it. Lanthanum Chloride is a bit of a mix bag as you can see by the replies here and what you may have read elsewhere.

I think the priority now is to do some water changes as you are doing matching parameters to remove residual. I don't know the shelf life is in the water but maybe Randy here has insight. But continue that course and then recheck your phosphate level and assess.

I don't know what the phosphate number was or what you wanted to reach or if it was even necessary but as already noted a safe product to use would be Blue Life's Phosphate Rx. Similar concept of calculating water volume, math to get number of drops, add slowly to filter sock before skimmer, or drip directly into the skimmer, preferably just before lights out for sleeping / calmer tank, and let it run for a couple days. Then water change. More or less it.

Lastly, because I don't want to kick a dead horse, double check sources that recommend a over the counter product you may add to do something. There are a lot of older articles, and current ones, from chemist such as Randy here that list names of safe products to use. And why that is important is that there is a 99% or higher chance they used the product be it baking soda, pickling lime, or lanthanum chloride. Just something to remember because life is a bit crazy but that extra minute of checking could help down the road.

Again that is a rocking tank you have based on that photo you shared. Keep that skimmer running, do some water changes, easy to get it cleared. Be safe.

Edit: side effects when I used Phsphate Rx:

1. Bubble tips receded a bit for a couple days
2. Leathers, mostly my green long tentacle, closed up a for a few days
Thanks.. Sadly, the manufacture had changed the ingredients from from Lanthanum Chloride to Cerium Chloride.. that is what caused the issue.. But still on me.. I should have contacted the manufacture and verified before using. :(

My phosphates have always been high because I like to keep lots of fish. Was planning on decreasing them over the next month slowly.. That is why I used a small dose.. glad I did or everything would have been dead.

My phosphates before treatment were .4 I am sure they are much less now due to the water changes.
 

ReefGeezer

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In that the affect suposedly is due to a physical mechanism (flax in gills) / not chemical... why / how would it get better without some physical action of removal. I am worried for all the fish. They are all still breathing heavy.

578538BF-E7E3-4CB6-8001-CECE47CC927C.png
A little off topic, by why worry about phosphate in that tank? It looks like the life in the tank hasn't been bothered by current levels. Has your SPS growth slowed or is algae and issue?
 
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Ben Pedersen

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A little off topic, by why worry about phosphate in that tank? It looks like the life in the tank hasn't been bothered by current levels. Has your SPS growth slowed or is algae and issue?
This tank has been going for over 10 years.. As mentioned before I have always had lots of fish... My coral growth has slowed down a little but was more consurned about the red turf algae around the base of the coral.. in the past this hasn't been a big deal as I had palys every where so no algae could grow. Couple years back I got an Emperor and Lemon-peal angle.. they have decimated the paly population and now algae is encroaching on some of my newer frags. My phosphate level is regularly 0.4... According to experts.. it should be around .03.

049781DC-5A9E-43DD-99B9-BB70FCCDCDBE.jpeg


8CE7D78E-8921-43CE-9A4A-68547C4F00E9.png
 

ReefGeezer

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This tank has been going for over 10 years.. As mentioned before I have always had lots of fish... My coral growth has slowed down a little but was more consurned about the red turf algae around the base of the coral.. in the past this hasn't been a big deal as I had palys every where so no algae could grow. Couple years back I got an Emperor and Lemon-peal angle.. they have decimated the paly population and now algae is encroaching on some of my newer frags. My phosphate level is regularly 0.4... According to experts.. it should be around .03.

049781DC-5A9E-43DD-99B9-BB70FCCDCDBE.jpeg


8CE7D78E-8921-43CE-9A4A-68547C4F00E9.png
I'd think your tank could easily operate above .1 ppm of phosphate but growth will be slower. The corals look great. I'm truly sorry for your loss. Like others have said, do some water changes and use a LC product until you slowly get the level to stay down. That'll take quite a while. In the meantime, put in more clean-up crewmembers to help with the turf algae. If you have elevated nitrate also, a cheato fuge and some iron can help.
 
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